But I find it interesting that, even as attitudes towards sex grow increasingly liberalized, most people's gut reaction to a secret society which gathers for group sex is revulsion.
Why does this film provoke such an intense psychological reaction in a time when so many argue that all sexual practices should be accommodated and are inherently harmless?
Additionally why does the implication that those at the orgy are the powerful in society seem to magnify peoples' disturbed and angry feelings? Do people expect the powerful in society to be held to a different standard than the rest of us, or to be more moral? I doubt a suburban swingers party would incite the same reaction, but isn't it really the same thing?
For me, the entire tone and atmosphere of the scene does not give off the impression that this is just another sex party. When viewers see the scene, they envision off-screen complete uninhibited debauchery taking place. The only three terrifying sexual modalities that can take place at this party, and this is the reason the scene can be so scary, is pedophilia, incest, and rape. The even bigger implication is that all three are taking place.
When the viewer finds out that the party is actually run by an elite, it compounds the fear by cementing the notion that now these acts have actually taken place. If we think of elite, we think omnipotence; therefore, if an omnipotent society gathers up for surreptitious sex parties, then surely any and all depraved acts that they want to have happen will happen.
The man that nods at Bill is wearing a mask that another person is wearing on the ground level. One of them offers up a woman to Bill and he seems about to engage when a masked woman interrupts, presumably Mandy. The woman that was offered up to Bill is later seen next the white face mask man wearing a hood when Bill is asked to remove his mask and clothes. Some of the masks seem to be related, as though indicating factions or groups within the larger whole.
The lives of the women in the parties were controlled by people who organised the parties.
That is why one of them was killed, that is why Cruise was warned from the beginning he was in grave danger, that is why his friend disappeared.
So even the women were not there against their will, but they were the sex slaves of the elites, that is the whole point of these parties.
From what I can perceive those women could not deny whatever sexual requests during the parties, unless they were with someone, and that someone was not into threesomes with another man. That is not exactly consensual sex.
Their lives were controlled and they were sex slaves? Hmmm, it's been a while since I've seen this film but I'm pretty sure they were consenting to these "sex games" they were playing. No rape or holding anyone against their will. I thought it was more like a sex cult rather than a human trafficking ring.
Sure, they didn't want anyone to know about it but I never got the impression they were forcing people to do this or killing them if they reported them to police or whatever...
I think those women were paid to do this, but it was not a part time job kind of thing, once they were in they were a part of that organisation, I think that was what the ceremony was for, the initiation.
From the look of it, it is not an obligation they can easily get rid of.
I have to disagree, I think it is a sex cult. It was all planned out for Bill (Tom Cruise's character) to come there thinking that no one knows him but in actuality, he was lured there so they could "sexually sacrifice" the girl in a kind of ritualized orgy of some sorts or perhaps she did it with just one guy?
I can't quite remember the details of that part. I might have to re-watch this movie soon... but yeah, it's a sex cult.
It is a sex cult, but unlike your most average sex cults this is not just for the sexual pleasure of cult founders.
It is targeting the male elites, who were in it for the sex.
But what were those women in it for? I assume they were all young models, actresses and beauty pageant winners, and I assume they were not in it to have sex with old men. I think they were in it for either money or career advancements.
And if they were the cult devotees then the woman in the party would not have warned Cruise.
Not sure if it was ever explained why the girls were there, other than for the sex. Believe or not, a lot of women do get off on this sort of thing. lol...
But yeah, it's supposed to be a bunch of elites but no one knows who is who. They all wear masks. So I would assume they're just in it for the sex.
I'll have to watch it again and see how that part of the film is explained. But I don't think it ever is...
And just so you know, letthemeatcake01 is a ghost. You won't get a reply from that person. That post was taken from the old IMDB boards. The way you can tell this is by holding your cursor over their name or taping on it if you're using a mobile device and if you don't get a clickable icon, it's an old post.
People who claim to find this disturbing are sure to be in the minority. This film was not a blockbuster. If a wider audience had actually viewed it I wager most people would have simply found the scene boring and disappointing.
I completely disagree. What makes the scene disturbing isn't the nudity or the sex. In the age of the internet, it takes WAY more to shock most people nowadays.
No, what's disturbing is the idea that the richest and most powerful elite in America are hedonistic sociopaths who practice odd, quasi-Satanic rituals, and who have accumulated such vast wealth and privilege that the rules of society simply no longer apply to them.
I'm not an Alex Jones-style paranoiac by any means, but if you read up on super-elite, secretive organizations like the Bohemian Grove (a secluded Northern California resort where the most powerful men in America gather annually to perform weird pagan plays and actually burn a wicker man in effigy), Skull and Bones (a secret Yale society to which BOTH George W. Bush and John Kerry belonged), the Bilderberg group, etc...
Well, it's all VERY off-putting. The basic idea is that these super-elite practice intimate rituals like sex orgies and other extreme, fraternity-style hazing in an effort to extract as many embarrassing personal details from each other as possible to use as blackmail evidence. This is their insurance policy for keeping everyone in line should one of them ever develop a conscience.
Again...this is all conjecture and admittedly conspiratorial, but that's what makes the scene so disturbing to me.
Its disturbing in how unsexy it is. As if Kubrick was making an anti sex statement. I'm as horny as they come but I fast forwarded through the ridiculous walk through orgy scenes on second viewing. I couldn't stand how boring and cold it all was.
Its disturbing in how unsexy it is. As if Kubrick was making an anti sex statement. I'm as horny as they come but I fast forwarded through the ridiculous walk through orgy scenes on second viewing. I couldn't stand how boring and cold it all was.
Agreed. Unsexy is the best word to describe the weaka$$ sex scenes for the big sex party in the mansion. Creepy is a good way to describe the onlookers.
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Perhaps I take it as a foregone conclusion that these are the sort of people who are remorseless, without conscience and capable of anything. Perhaps that's why I found bland depiction to be not at all disturbing.
The real horrors are to be found in industrial slavery and industrial poisoning and industrial depletion of natural resources etc.
True, but again, it's not the sex...it's the wider implications of what these weird occult orgies that the richest and most powerful people in America hold for themselves represent.
And remember...Mandy and Nightengale were both almost certainly murdered by this group (and Bill would have been as well), and Helena appeared to be abducted at the conclusion of the film by two of the men at Ziegler's Christmas party, so it's not just a harmless case of group sex.
I understand what you're saying, but it doesn't change my impression of the character of the scene.
As I indicated before, people like this would allow children to consume contaminated formula. What's a little murder to someone like that? For me it all fits together in a way that's fails to raise an eyebrow.
Now if they had incorporated ritual murder into the sex act, maybe that would have evoked some sense of outrage....
Most of us agree she disappears with two old farts who were at the first Xmas party. A young fella follows them who really looks like one of the servants at the Xmas party as well. Given the events of the last few days, that Bill would let his daughter out of his sight for a second says a lot.
Where did you see that? At the end of the movie, Helena is walking around the toystore, and Tom/Nicole have a final dialog, and that's it...
I think it's a huge stretch to claim that Helena is literally abducted by the bald-headed men, not to say that the cult weren't capable of it but in terms of what is shown in the movie. I don't think it happens, and I feel that's taking the story way too literally. However, I do believe Kubrick may have been up to his usual tricks in that scene, which I'll attempt to break down my thoughts concerning:
Points Favoring Abduction:
1) It is true is that there are two bald-headed men at Ziegler's Christmas party. Bill is stalked by a bald-headed man after the orgy. A bald-headed man hands Bill a threatening note at the gate of Somerton Mansion. Finally, there are two bald-headed men resembling the two at Christmas party at the toy store at the end. For conspiracy buffs, this could point to a recessive baldness gene due to genetic bloodline interbreeding, a reference to very old and wealthy families throughout the world. For the rest of us, they simply stand in for rich old men. Anyway, the two chrome domes are seen walking away and Helena is also seen walking away from Bill and Alice in the same general direction. The couple do not notice her as they are wrapped up in deep discussion. We never see Helena again as the film ends.
2) Helena is close to Helen, which could be a reference to Helen of Troy from Homer's The Iliad. Furthermore, Ziegler's wife is named Ilena (a derivation of Helen). In the story of The Iliad, Helen, the wife of Menelaus, is abducted (or goes willingly, depending on how you read it) by the Trojan prince named Paris. In some versions of the story Helen is forcibly abducted and presumably raped by Paris, in other versions she goes willingly and becomes the lover of Paris. What I'm saying is there is a certain ambiguity as to her character. Needless to say, this could parallel Alice's recounting of her fantasy of running of with the naval officer.
Points Against Abduction:
1) It's not true at all: For would-be kidnappers, the bald-headed men are exceptionally slack at their jobs. They are intently looking at some toys and never once glance at the Harfords, looking for all the world like holiday shoppers. More to the point, they turn and begin walking away in front of Alice. They are NOT following her at any point, or indeed even looking at her. For her part, Helena does not seem to notice them either as she walks away. For some people, this will end the speculation once and for all.
2) It's true, but only on the level of metaphor: The possible Iliad reference could point more to a metaphoric "abduction" or "seduction" by wealthy men, the patriarchy being symbolically represented by older bald-headed men. The fact that the names Helen and Ilena are so similar gives rise to the idea that whatever "abduction" we may or may not be seeing is metaphorical, not real, as she symbolically "follows after them". The name of Ziegler's wife could be Kubrick's way of suggesting Helena is destined to become a trophy wife for some wealthy man in the future, just as Ilena currently is for Ziegler. Like her mother, Helen is portrayed as possessing a dual nature. Indeed, when we first see Helena she is dressed as an Angel. On the other hand, her name is Helena, which as relates to the Homeric Helena who was an adulterer and ran off with Paris. We clearly see her mother Alice grooming her for such a wealthy husband in several dialog exchanges. Being practiced in the art of deception and duality begins in childhood.
Maybe my way of thinking is messed up, but I was kind of nonplussed? After hearing about how 'disturbing' the scene was, I kept waiting for something interesting to happen. The only slightly creepy part was the chanting at the beginning. Other than that, everything appeared to be consensual. My friend even said "So...it's just a voyeur club?". Not really that scandalous to me.
What I've got in my head you can't buy, steal, or borrow. I believe in live and let live.
The only slightly creepy part was the chanting at the beginning. Other than that, everything appeared to be consensual. My friend even said "So...it's just a voyeur club?". Not really that scandalous to me.
You missed the implication that it was a black magic, blood ritual which was celebrated on the solstice. This ties into a theme Kubrick used in The Shining. That also took place during Christmas.
The people were partaking in more than just a voyeur/sex party.
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What I find disturbing is what could be going on in other rooms, on other floors. What we don't see. Scenes from 'Salò, or the 120 Days of Sodom' keep flashing in my mind. http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0073650/?ref_=nv_sr_1
Well, firstly because it is not an orgy at all, as that implies a 'free for all' voluntary participation by all parties, and clearly, this quite starkly is most definitely NOT the case in relation to Somerton.
The Somerton scenes are rigidly structured, hierarchical, and are played out as a set of rituals in which there are clear demarcations (primarily by class, secondarily by gender or ethnicity), in which some of the 'participants' are obviously sex slaves unwittingly there to be abused by the sadistic elite, the gathering of the wealthy-corrupt in secret acting out their violent sexual fantasies and excesses as an obscene, vulgar adjunct to their everyday domination of society and its functioning.
It's not an orgy; it's a (patriarchal and capitalist) power ritual, the purpose of which is to perpetuate oppression and exploitation (of everyone, ultimately) by corrupt elites, the agents of power and capital (themselves enslaved to such institutions, even though they are so corrupt that they don't even know it), a ritual in which there is invariably a victim, a scapegoat or 'sacrifice' (Mandy/Mysterious Woman), and an initiation, a potential new future recruit (Bill Harford) to the cabal, to the elite.
a ritual in which there is invariably a victim, a scapegoat or 'sacrifice' (Mandy/Mysterious Woman), and an initiation, a potential new future recruit (Bill Harford) to the cabal, to the elite.
Definitely. And it is occurring on the Winter Solstice which gives it more power.
This group definitely won't let Bill live his merry little life now that he has seen what they really are. He'll either be subsumed by them or meet up with an "accident". My bet is on the former because we see him closing his eyes to the criminality at the end.
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It's not an orgy; it's a (patriarchal and capitalist) power ritual, the purpose of which is to perpetuate oppression and exploitation (of everyone, ultimately) by corrupt elites, the agents of power and capital (themselves enslaved to such institutions, even though they are so corrupt that they don't even know it), a ritual in which there is invariably a victim, a scapegoat or 'sacrifice' (Mandy/Mysterious Woman), and an initiation, a potential new future recruit (Bill Harford) to the cabal, to the elite.
it is an orgy, its a large group of people having sex.
You need to educate yourself on the subject of 'orgies' and on what is happening in the film, because, from your posts, it would appear that your knowledge of film is restricted to children's cartoon movies. The Somerton power rituals by a corrupt elite, in which we witness sex slaves, in which occurs the sexual abuse, torture, rape and murder of people, is not an 'orgy' in any known sense of the term. In the same way as the earlier sexual abuse of a female child in the film - in Milich's costume rental store "Rainbow Fashions" - by two paedophiles with Milich pimping his own child, his own daughter, was not an 'orgy', but the gang rape of a child overseen and orchestrated by her deranged father, so deranged that he projects his derangement onto the child herself: "Can't you see she is deranged!?", just like the abusive madman Jack Torrance in Kubrick's previous "The Shining", who, after violently abusing his son Danny, tries to convince his distraught wife Wendy with the obscene lie: "I think he did it to himself" ...