Still another movie that (for certain viewers) makes serial killers out to be a sort of anti-hero. Far too much focusing on gruesome trophies and elaborately realized fantasies, aimed at... those film-goers who find such things tittilating.
So what would you do differently in a film like this? Or would you prefer it not be made at all?
shareThere's no closing the door on these films, on a moral issue, because they're so popular, rather, profitable, and the movie industry is about money, not morality. Without a doubt though, the sickest thing is that there's an audience for this... a hopefully small % of whom, I have to believe are encouraged to emulate the behavior.
Then there's the slippery slope of free speech.
If anything could change, it might be useful to move the point of view from admiring how clever the killer supposedly is, to the sufferring of victims. The weak and innocent are the most frequent targets. The heartbreaking, hopelessly sad last moments of girls/women often hardly more than children... or actual children themselves (a serial victim group usually carefully avoided by graphic movie makers). The agony of parents and loved ones.
Of course there are those who would get off on this too.
Hollywood can't (yet) get away with making a child the object of a too-overt sexual-violence fantasy ...though I swear, just as soon as they think it's possible to put an 11 year old girl in garter belt, stockings, and lacy underwear, then show her murder, and imply she somehow asked for it (remember, the basic premise of slasher films is that teenagers are killed for having sex) without serious public outcry, someone will certainly be sick enough to make the movie, and many, many more, sick enough to watch it.
How about showing the summary execution of a snivelling, blubbering, pants-wetting killer, dragged screaming the last few yards to the electric chair, injection table, or gallows? Or shanked in the prison yard? Not allowed to sell his life story, bask in the admiration of his "fans," reveal sickening details, or allowed to live at public expense for 20+ years... simply taken from the courtroom to the slaughterhouse. Now THAT'S entertainment!
Obviously, it's a social evil long before it gets to the big screen: Apparently huge underlying currents of hatred toward women, prurient interest in kids, anger, feelings of impotence.
I would prefer the films weren't made at all, certainly not as they are now, but that's not going to happen. Look at the spoken (and implied) questions and comments on these boards: "How did X kill this particular victim?" "Neat! He got away!" "Boy doesn't that murderer look sexy!" "Wow, what a cool idea, to keep your victims on tap in your own little prison!" "Wow! He sawed off their feet! Cool!"
What can you think about that?
What do you do, if you can't stop them from being made? Should everybody who buys a ticket to, say... "Wolf Creek," have to provide a name, address, and photo for the police? Ridiculous.
The films are first of all a symptom of a bigger societal problem, but also, IMO, an incitement/stimulation for such behavior. I don't have a solution, but it bothers me that they seem to be becoming more a mainstream taste, and with modern CGI, the arousal level of violence is escalating.
"Hollywood can't (yet) get away with making a child the object of a too-overt sexual-violence fantasy ...though I swear, just as soon as they think it's possible to put an 11 year old girl in garter belt, stockings, and lacy underwear, then show her murder, and imply she somehow asked for it (remember, the basic premise of slasher films is that teenagers are killed for having sex) without serious public outcry, someone will certainly be sick enough to make the movie, and many, many more, sick enough to watch it."
Conventional Hollywood is far less of a problem in our society than is the porn industry with its objectification of women, many of whom are "barely legal" and victims of sexual abuse. Only a heavy consumer of porn would believe the likes of Max Hardcore (and other Gonzo producers) to be an empower of woman. Yes women do get into the porn industry of their own fruition, be it the love of exhibitionists sex or fast money, but it is more commonly done for self damaging reasons. This can range from delusion (stepping stone to more mainstream endeavors), drug addiction (developed before or after entering porn), sexual abuse, low self esteem, or a host of unresolved emotional problems. No entertainment industry on this planet uses up young woman / girls and spits them out so readily as does Porn. It is a free country, and no one is putting a gun to these woman's heads, but overall it is a pretty dank way to make a living.
The name of the game in Porn is "churn em and burn em", an endless stream of younger and more willing women (Less morals / more degradation for less money), in other words a porn producers "wet dream". The abundance of porn on the internet just compounds the problem, by driving down price even further (both production and actor pay) making it easier for the Max Hardcore's of this world to keep their websites and videos well stocked.
"Without a doubt though, the sickest thing is that there's an audience for this... a hopefully small % of whom, I have to believe are encouraged to emulate the behavior."
Do you have an stats to back up such nonsense, or are your "beliefs" coming out of your arse. Do you honestly believe that serial killers / rapists are emulating films like "Kiss the Girl", and that their "sickness' was lying dormant only to be triggered by the likes of some Hollywood film. Hey its a big world, so no doubt some sicko some where, has been motivated by Hollywood, but to call it any kind of trend or problem beyond a blip is nuts.
"Without a doubt though, the sickest thing is that there's an audience for this... a hopefully small % of whom, I have to believe are encouraged to emulate the behavior."
Do you have an stats to back up such nonsense, or are your "beliefs" coming out of your arse. Do you honestly believe that serial killers / rapists are emulating films like "Kiss the Girl", and that their "sickness' was lying dormant only to be triggered by the likes of some Hollywood film. Hey its a big world, so no doubt some sicko some where, has been motivated by Hollywood, but to call it any kind of trend or problem beyond a blip is nuts.
Perhaps we should begin by referencing this:
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0099763/board/thread/144658197?p=2&d=174442878#174442878
Written by someone who believes they're an expert on the American character
Well it sounds like we might have struck a nerve here! So, do you have much trouble suppressing the urges films like "Kiss the Girls" apparently arouse in you? My, my, you're certainly touchy about it, aren't you?
Read this again,
Obviously, it's a social evil long before it gets to the big screen: Apparently huge underlying currents of hatred toward women, prurient interest in kids, anger, feelings of impotence.
You already apparently believe that's true!
"I would prefer the films weren't made at all, certainly not as they are now, but that's not going to happen. Look at the spoken (and implied) questions and comments on these boards: "How did X kill this particular victim?" "Neat! He got away!" "Boy doesn't that murderer look sexy!" "Wow, what a cool idea, to keep your victims on tap in your own little prison!" "Wow! He sawed off their feet! Cool!"
Again, since you couldn't grasp it the first time (Boy, I wish I had a crayon to write this in for you, so you could keep up), for insight into the subject of cinema's influence and ability to arouse this sickness, you need go no further than the message boards for some of these films.
And nobody needs to publish a study... since we've had decades of them about people (particularly young people) emulating TV and cinema violence. At least as far back as the 70's you can find instances of copy-cat crime.
So you know real serial killers have what amounts to fan clubs?! That they occasionally even get married to women who find them sexy? (you'd chalk that up to low self esteem, I'm sure. It's you're usual argument)
And if you are actually aware of that....
why doesn't it disturb you??????????????????
And you just can't imagine the possibility of a film stimulating this behavior in some of those sick and twisted folks you mention? (Do you actually HAVE an imagination )
Oh, and Max Hardcore is exactly where he belongs, in jail... along with non-porn reality tv scumbag, Adnan John, and possibly soon, the former Survivor producer Mexican police seem to believe murdered his wife.
If you think the list of suicides, drug abusers, formerly molested children, criminals, and people with: "low self esteem" (LOL!) is any shorter in conventional Hollywood and society in general, than in porn, once again.............
You need to start reading something besides your high school psych textbook..
and get a life.
Far, far more importantly, you need to stop watching movies like this one.
Your argument makes no sense this guy says how its nonsense to assume that a trend is made or problem is caused by people emulating hollywood, but likely a few certain individuals may do and to counter his argument you give one instance of a certain individual confessing to urges caused by this film, not actually emulating this behaviour i may add but merely confessing to urges (something we may not even be 100% about as it could all be bullsh!t he made up i might add) and this is somehow supposed to convince us we've got a problem on our hands. Another stupid thing is saying this sort of film gets copycats, surely if you were a homocidal maniac and you wanted to copy a film, you may choose one where the serial killers whereabouts isn't found, his dna isn't captured by police and he isn't later shot to death, if it were me id go for a film where he doesnt get caught. And complaining about people routing for the bad guy in a film then leads to people emulating the behaviour is ridculous, film is first of all a form of escapism especially american cinema it is very much escapism, second of all even if you route for a serial killer even in real life it doesnt mean you want to become them or will copy them, in that case because i routed for the girls captured in this film i now want to be kidnapped and held prison and be beaten and raped and eventually killed. I hope to God your a troll cause everything you say makes no *beep* sense and it just highlights the illogical self-righteousness that plagues our world everytime something remotely controversial is made apparent in our society.
share... to really even know what you've read, though what comes through makes it likely you have lots of trouble communicating in your own language as well!
I didn't give ANY specific instances of emulated behavior... yet you've invented one... and go on at tedious length about it????!!!
Your silly analogy that having sympathy for the victims would mean you want to be raped and murdered is hilarious !!! Obviously you don't let logic interfere with your "thinking"!
As a guess, I'd say you sound like someone who is VERY stimulated by what goes on in these films, and is in denial about your response.
You DO root for the killers, DON'T YOU?
Does the noise in your head bother the people around you???
I think you've just highlighted the flaws in your argument not mine. You've just admitted that you havent given one piece of evidence to support your wild claims, but just a comment saying someone got urges from the film, maybe your one who has trouble reading not me. Second of all my analogy was meant to be ridculous as in order to point out the lack of logic in your argument, you can't believe i was being serious about that.
Second of all i do wonder whats funny in poking fun of someone who could potentially be dyslexic or have a speech impedament, i bet you wouldn't find yourself so funny then. I find it funny how just because i argue against you i must some sort of twisting perv who gets stimulated by death and torture, and to just specify no i dont get off on this, but yes i like this film. And no i usually dont root for the killer unless the victim is some incompetent moron like in the strangers or the human centiped.
Anyway by your response i gather you are a self-righteous person who values their own opinion so much that they disregard all points made against no matter how logical or seemingly stronger than your's are. I would challenge you to back up your claims with a shread of evidence that isnt a simple comment or case study, but i doubt you'll find any.
I doubt this because your previous reponse was simply a thinly veiled insult as you had nothing of any use or anything intellectual to counter me with at all. You are as I suspected a very opininated person making wild claims that have no truth in them. I still struggle to understand why banning this film would achieve anything as this is based on a book and so would still have affected people. I also wonder why you said this film as well as it isn't very graphic or sick it's just an average serial killer film. And as for your previous comments you made on free speech, if you prefer censorship then you seem rather hypocritical as your are using your right to free speech to speak out against hollywood and the depiction of certain things in american cinema.
thanks for the paragraph breaks; if you decide to edit your earlier reply similarly, it will be just as readable.
"Ugh! I don't like this." --Ambrose Bierce
Did you wear a bib when typing that drooling drivel?
shareccrider--
it's funny-- up until your last paragraph ("do you have stats..."), i thought you agreed with the o.p.
fun fact: "serial killer," leonard lake (of lake & ng) used The Collector by john fowles (which was also made into a movie http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0059043/ as his own personal guide to the point that he named his sex/torture bunker venture "operation miranda" after the captive woman in the book. the taglines for the movie include "almost a love story," and "she was his most beautiful specimen." correlating artwork shows a butterfly superimposed over the face of a woman, a motif repeated decades later for Silence of the Lambs.
porn is often used by predators as inspiration, and then as a boundary test for prospective victims: how will you react to this joke? this picture? this remark? this video? they are looking for people without firm boundaries who are easier to exploit. but i can also see, as with the lake example above, that exploitative fiction which happens to romanticize predators (either by accident or design) can be part of the puzzle.
"Ugh! I don't like this." --Ambrose Bierce
2 OP - based on all of this I wonder - what do you think of action movies and especially that common good guys versus bad guys and good versus evil trope where good guys often win and evil gets it? And how do you personally feel that in REAL LIFE, that is overall, to put it mildly, NOT always the case?
And do you have anything either against or to say about THOSE MOVIES, in and of themselves?
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And for all who complain that "Oh we see victims being tortured and killed, why not show instead same being done to perpetrator" - even mentally and theoretically, we don't really want to fall to their level and besides, in this film, SPOILERS, both perpetrators were shot and killed, and last one dies even graphically and bloodily. I don't need to ask for that much more.
Besides, in this movie, even the victim torture and murder is often implied, however strongly, as opposed to shown graphically. See some 70s exploitation movies that actually show both sides if that or something similar is what you want.
Also, in this life, as much as it pains or dissatisfies a lot of us, we also have to live with the fact that some matters on their own are what they are and the countermeasures we may employ are also very much are what they are. That's a fact.
So let's say a killer or some other type of perpetrator hurting a victim etc will always look and come across one way and someone trying to stop or deal with a perpetrator, particularly anyone involved in law, will always look in another way altogether.
Besides, some folks if saw it all this way might mistakenly start to sympathize with the perpetrator and we don't want that either.
But in some ways, there have been loads of films showing and depicting just that. But here it was shown the other way and not too inappropriately or offensively at that.
In "Se7en" (1995) also with Morgan Freeman, the film even suggested that outright killing its main serial killer would mean that he will "win" and whilst he wasn't trying to get him off or totally defend it either, Morgan Freeman's character in that movie even encouraged trying to understand the John Doe serial killer character more than outright despising him and writing him off as "lunatic".
Not to mention, after he shoots him in the end there, SPOILER, for the murder of his wife, Brad Pitt's character even gets arrested by police for it. :)