MovieChat Forums > Good Will Hunting (1998) Discussion > Why 'Good Will Hunting' doesn't work

Why 'Good Will Hunting' doesn't work

posted 11 years ago by Wuchakk
72 replies | jump to latest

The theme of a genius janitor is great and I thought I'd like the film more than I did, but a couple of things really bog it down.

For one, Will Hunting is not a "good" person, as the title suggests (I'm sure they were being ironic). In fact, he's so smart he's stupid. Doesn't he know that smoking will destroy his body and send him to an early grave? (I get it, he's super-smart in some ways but he lacks common sense wisdom). More importantly, he's arrogant and unnecessarily mean. For instance, Professor Lambeau visits him in jail and Will's first words are, "What the *beep* do you want?" Could anyone be that stupid? How about, "Hi, I'm Will. Who are you, Sir?" I get it -- he's from a tough neighborhood and was abused as a kid, but 99% of guys from tough neighborhoods who were abused as kids don't talk unnecessary sheet like Will does in this film.

In fact, too much of the cussing rings untrue. Will and his three friends from South Boston use the f-word practically every other word and it strikes an inauthentic chord. Yes, I realize -- they're trying to act like hooligans from a rough neighborhood -- but they try too hard and it comes off contrived.

I should add that I hail from a neighborhood where the gang cussed, drank, did drugs & smoked like sailors, but even we could construe eight words together without throwing in the f-word (although two full sentences would be a challenge, lol). I have no problem with realistic cussing in films; in fact, I prefer it. But when it's so over-the-top that it seems artificial it detracts from the drama.

Furthermore, Damon doesn't LOOK like a tough guy from the wrong side of the tracks (neither does Ben, but he's a little better). Matt's miscast because he just looks too soft with his baby-face. I think he knew this because he tries too hard to be a tough punk, and it shows.

The fact that the main protagonist is thoroughly unlikable takes away from the story. Who cares about some disrespectful punk who doesn't care to better himself, genius or not? As a result, the drama isn't nearly as compelling as it could've been. When Sean (Williams) finally gets Will to break at the end, I wasn't much interested.

I'm not saying that the movie's wholly bad or that it's a waste of time, but the above factors prevented it from having any impact on me.

[–] Wuchakk 11 years ago

Well, it didn't work for ME. At the end when Will breaks down in Robin William's arms it was supposed to be moving, but I couldn't care less. The creators failed to make Will Hunting a character to empathize with and care about. He's an obnoxious and witless punk. So he's a math wiz, so what? Everyone has at least one special talent.

But I'll give it an open-minded re-watch in the near future.

[–] 11 years ago

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[–] Wuchakk 11 years ago

not every character has to be some benevolent soul in order to achieve empathy and caring.

I never said that, not that you necessarily said I did. Here's what I said on this point in a previous post (edited):

My initial post was an attempt to find out why I was disinterested by the end of the film when Will broke down in William's arms. I guess it's because Will kept turning me off and I never developed respect or care for him. The writers went overboard in making Will a repugnant punk. Even an antihero has to somehow win the respect or care of the viewer in some way for the viewer to root for him/her; or they at least have to be able to relate to him/her on some level.

Take Manny in "Runaway Train", played by Jon Voight (and, yes, I realize I'm going way back): He's basically a savage beast who's too far gone for any hope of redemption, but he knows it and he warns people in one way or another. What's ironic is that he becomes a Christ figure with his final act and goes out of his way to save two people that he considered worthy of living. It's a sad, but moving character arc, but we can relate to his situation even if we're no where near his condition.

Thanks for the comments. I'll be sure to give it a re-watch with an open mind.

[–] jaime-kaplan-74 11 years ago

Will looks as he should--white, of Irish descent it seems, and if you grew up in a large urban enviornment, like I did in NYC, you would know that even white kids can be tough.

Did you ever think that it read that there is a hunt for good will?

If you cannot stand "cussing" so much that you can't eveb call it "cursing," then maybe rated R movies are not for you.

Finally, will was both the protagonast and antagonist--he was fighting liking sean. I wrote an entry "Only abused people know this" because that scene wirh "it's not your fault" is misnderstood.

J

[–] 11 years ago

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[–] Howlin Wolf 11 years ago

Maybe he knows that smoking might lead him to an early grave (not EVERY smoker dies of smoking related causes... ) but he'd rather take that risk than listen to someone else tell him what he should be doing with his life? Everybody's life is their own to live; you can't make decisions based upon the sensibilities of other people. You gotta do what's right for you.

I liked it better that his character was abrasive; I was rooting for him to overcome his problems and become a better person... If he'd been thoroughly likeable from the getgo, my attitude would have been more: 'Eh, you don't need my support, you'll get where you wanna go eventually, anyway'... Having him start off a jerk but slowly redeem himself shows growth.

"Your mother puts license plates in your underwear? How do you sit?!"

[–] Wuchakk 11 years ago

My point about smoking was more of an observation than a reason why the movie didn't work for me (although I don't hate it), so the smoking issue can be disregarded.

As for your other comment:

If he'd been thoroughly likeable from the getgo, my attitude would have been more: 'Eh, you don't need my support, you'll get where you wanna go eventually, anyway'... Having him start off a jerk but slowly redeem himself shows growth.

This point has already been brought up on this thread, but I don't expect new posters to read all the comments, let me cut-and-paste a couple of my early posts with a couple of added comments:

Even with a total anti-hero there has to be some important aspect about the protagonist that the viewer finds worthy in order to care for him/her, at least care about their outcome in the story. Manny (Jon Voight) in "Runaway Train" is a good example. In a way he's criminal scum, but the excellent writing helps the viewer relate to him and his plight; unfortunately, he's too far gone to turn from his sad fate, but he does something noble and selfless at the end, so in a way he is redeemed.

I enjoy films that focus on the characters and, particularly, films about redemption where the flawed protagonist learns and changes for the better, i.e. a positive character arc. Marlon Brando's Kid Rio in "One-Eyed Jacks" is an excellent example. The first act shows him to be a womanizing, lying thief and 5 years in a Mexican prison fills him with hatred and vengeance. Throughout the rest of the film, however, the power of love slowly changes him. It's a powerful movie and I love films like this.

But, for some reason, the character of Will Hunting didn't click with me and when he finally broke down in Williams' arms at the end I didn't find it moving at all. I was completely disinterested.

My initial post was an attempt to find out why I was disinterested. I guess it's because Will kept turning me off and I never developed respect or care for him. The writers went overboard in making Will a repugnant punk. Even an antihero has to somehow win the respect or care of the viewer in some way for the viewer to root for him/her.

That said, I'm hoping to like "Good Will Hunting" more the next time I watch it. I'll search hard to find something to respect about Will and try to relate to him somehow. We'll see.

[–] Howlin Wolf 11 years ago

I read the entire thread, after I posted my opinion.

It's been ages since I saw Runaway Train, so unfortunately I can't remember much about the character of Manny (although I know I liked the film itself) but as far as Good Will Hunting goes, I related to Will's loyalty to his friends, and his sense of justice (doesn't he beat up that guy because either he or his friends were bullied in kindergarten? Sure, it's the wrong way to resolve conflict, but at the same time, I liked that he had a strong conscience, and a determination not to rest, until things were put right)

I also wouldn't describe people as 'scum' or 'repugnant'... Will wasn't a rapist or a murderer - a character where those labels might be more aptly used - he was just a young man who made some bad choices... We all have good and bad inside us, whether we're a priest or a criminal... The fact that you dismiss him as a 'punk' from the beginning betrays a lack of sympathy on your part for people who make mistakes (as does your smoking observation, incidentally)

My sympathy for Will partly comes from the fact that he was marked out as different from an early age, and then abused... That has to be tough. I also think that the writing in Good Will Hunting is excellent, but that is heavily subjective, so we can agree to differ, there.

If it doesn't work for you, then it doesn't work for you. It doesn't make the film bad, or mean that you are lacking somehow; it's just an instinctive reaction... However, from the language you use, and the ideals that you use to describe Will, (plus the fact that 'cussing' is something you notice enough to remark upon it... ) it doesn't sound like you're truly comfortable around working class, blue collar characters in that kind of setting. This is problematic in terms of your appreciation of the film, because for me, it gets right to the heart of its appeal - Will is just an ordinary kid, battling his demons in order to eventually try to do something 'Good' with his life.

"Your mother puts license plates in your underwear? How do you sit?!"

[–] Wuchakk 11 years ago

Your comments are good and I like the fact that you don't resort to insults and name-calling, which happens too often here on IMDb when two people disagree about the quality of a film (rolling my eyes).

I grew up in a working-middle class neighborhood and the gang was as bad or worse than Will's gang in the film. Plus I enjoy films that depict working class and dirt poor people, like "Undertow" and "The Apostle," to name two off the top of my head. So the idea that I can't relate to working class types can be ruled out.

Also, I described Manny in the awesome "Runaway Train" as "criminal scum" and yet I was able to relate to him, have compassion and even root for him. This was due to the excellent writing and filmmaking in general. See my fairly recent reveiw of that film for details (from early November, I think). So that rules out the idea that the protagonist has to be a saint for me to appreciate a movie (not that you said that exactly).

plus the fact that 'cussing' is something you notice enough to remark upon it...

Actually I don't like it when filmmakers tone down the language for the sake of sensitive viewers. I prefer the awful truth in films and therefore prefer realistic cussing. The key here is my statement: "The writers went overboard in making Will a repugnant punk." I agree with you that "repugnant" is too harsh a term; maybe I should have said, "annoying", "idiotic" or "offensive", particularly when he greets the professor visiting him in jail with an arrogant, "What the *bleep* do you want?" It doesn't matter what block you grew up on, when someone compassionately reaches out to you when you're in a bad situation you don't rudely and unnecessarily cuss him/her out. Or later when he kept sitting in stubborn silence as Sean (Williams) tries to talk with him. Anyone who's that dense doesn't deserve the time & patience Lambeau and Sean gave him, I don't care how much of a math wiz he is (whoopee). If he showed a smidgen of humility with the professors it would be a different story. Maybe he did and I missed it. As it is, I have no idea why they bent over backwards to help him.

Anyway, the key word in my above statement is "overboard." The writers/filmmakers/actors went overboard in trying to make Will a hardened dude from the tough side of town. They tried too hard and showed; it struck an artificial chord. If you've read the other comments on this thread you know that I'm not the only one who picked up on it, so I wasn't imagining things. This is why the film didn't work for me.

it's just an instinctive reaction...

Well said; I'm not conjuring up reasons to not like the film out of nowhere; it's a gut reaction to their overdoing it. Some viewers didn't pick up on it or were able to ignore it and receive from the picture. That's great, more power to 'em, but I wasn't able to do this.

However, I like your defense of Will -- his loyalty to his friends, etc. -- so I'll be on the look out for these positive aspects the next time I view the film.

Thanks for the quality feedback.

[–] dsmith147-1 11 years ago

Will is a dynamic character, and Good Will Hunting is the product of the journey you see in the film. Most people who watch the film find him, yes, deeply flawed, but still see his potential and want him to succeed.

It's a coming-of-age story where Will finds redemption and growth. That he's initially 'unlikable' doesn't take away from the story - it's essential to the story. You talk about believability. His situation is only believable because of his flaws. If he had it together, he'd be studying at MIT, not cleaning its floors.

[–] Wuchakk 11 years ago

I've stated repeatedly throughout this thread that I don't expect the protagonist of any story to be a saint or to be thoroughly likable. Please check out some of my previous posts for details in this respect.

That he's initially 'unlikable' doesn't take away from the story - it's essential to the story.

This has already been covered as well.

You talk about believability. His situation is only believable because of his flaws. If he had it together, he'd be studying at MIT, not cleaning its floors.

Being a janitor isn't grounds for being an arrogant, stubborn a-hole. Over and over he proved himself unworthy of the professors' time and services. So he's a phenomenal math wiz, so what? Practically every individual has at least one area of gifting or genius.

I'll be sure to give the movie another try, but this was how it struck me. I'm just being honest.

[–] dsmith147-1 11 years ago

Nothing you wrote addresses what I said. If you can't connect to or empathize with Will, I can't write you a sonnet and change that for you. If your ability to appreciate the film is tied to your ability to connect with the protagonist, well then, that's that, I suppose.

Will is a dynamic character, like McConaughey's character in Dallas Buyer's Club. McConaughey's Ron Woodroof is actually significantly less likable to start the film than Will is in Good Will Hunting. Their growth makes their respective films compelling.

As it is, there might not be a character I draw a deeper connection to than Will in all of film.

[–] Wuchakk 11 years ago

What I wrote in other posts does address your points; whether you believe that or not is not my affair. I'd cut-and-paste but I'm weary of repeating myself over and over on this thread.

Other people here have acknowledged the problems with the film that I've pointed out, even people who love it, so I'm not making up reasons to not like it out of thin air.

I've never seen "Dallas Buyer's Club" and I've emphasized over and over how I appreciate the growth, redemption or whatever of characters in films, like Kid Rio in "One-Eyed Jacks" and even Manny in "Runaway Train," the latter a too-far-gone criminal.

As it is, there might not be a character I draw a deeper connection to than Will in all of film.

That's high praise indeed. You were able to ignore the flaws I mentioned (or you didn't see 'em) and connect with the character. That's awesome.

I was an idiotic, stubborn punk similar to Will in the film during my teens, but -- as aloof and senseless as I was -- I could still discern when a person was reaching out to me in compassion and wouldn't stupidly and repeatedly rudely attack the one or two people on earth who saw something special in me.

There's a saying and principle: Humility draws favor while arrogance attracts opposition or resistance. This is a social axiom and I find it hard to believe that the two professors would keep bending over backwards to help this disrespectful, stubborn fool, math wiz or not. Not to mention my other criticisms (e.g. going overboard to show that the gang were tough dudes from the bad side of town).

That said, I don't hate the film and I'll try to look for those good qualities you mention the next time I catch it. I appreciate your well-worded input.

[–] marleinasmom 11 years ago

First, why would Will show the professor any respect? It was made very clear that no one in Will's life had ever shown him compassion or done anything for him out of the goodness of their heart. Everyone expected something from him. So here arrives this arrogant professor dangling the get-out-of-jail-free card with-SHOCKER-strings attached. Another person he doesn't know coming along to take a piece of Will, using him as a punching bag or in this case gaining fame and glory by being the "mentor," the polisher of our diamond in the rough mathematical superstar. So in order to get out of jail for doing something dumb, he basically has to prostitute this talent he has that he doesn't understand, doesn't really want, doesn't care about and is basically afraid of. After a lifetime of being used, I would probably ask him what the f%@* he wanted too. Life has shown him they always want something, and it is only reinforced by the Professor clearly not caring about any aspect of Will that doesn't involve math. So Lambeau helping Will was not a caring, compassionate act. He merely wanted to attach himself to this greater mind to share the glory, because he could not face the truth of his inferiority, nor handle the damage to his ego. Will, being street smart and intuitive, likely knew from the jump that Lambeau wanted something from him and had no reason to be respectful.

Also, being from right outside of Boston I can tell you the cursing is right on point. Around here, the F word is just another adjective, sometimes verb or noun. Often it is simply the most satisfying option in the list of words you could use. Most of us are aware that there are times and situations where you clean up your vocabulary, but this isn't a movie about those times so it wasn't necessary. Why would Ben Affleck, Matt Damon, and even Casey Affleck exaggerate the dialog of characters who would speak exactly the same way they do? If you were writing a script about guys your age from the same town you're from, would you embellish the dialog? Or would you write what you yourself would say? Have you seen "Gone Baby Gone?" Cowritten and brilliantly directed by Ben Affleck, and starring the (in my opinion) grossly underrated Casey Affleck. Same kind of language, because it's just how we speak.
I hope I offered you another way of looking at GWH, because I think it truly is a brilliant movie and find Will to be a very endearing character.

[–] shoegal421 11 years ago

Well said.

[–] reffer0877 11 years ago

*beep* A.

"Your intelligence? I certainly don't want your intelligence, Agent. I'm quite happy with my own."

[–] 11 years ago

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[–] pmaile810 11 years ago

I think you're looking for authenticity in the wrong place. You say you have experience in tough neighborhoods and Matt doesn't give Will's character the ring of truth. I have the experience of an abusive childhood and here's what rings true for me in the movie: When you're navigating life on your own never having been shown good examples of humanity, what you do is you try on different personas. You take examples from your environment and your main objective is to blend in somehow without jeopardizing your safety...not just physical safety...emotional safety. Stay hidden, wear a cloak, blend in, fake it til you make it.

You are not supposed to be seeing a tough guy on the screen. You are supposed to be seeing a scared *beep* kid trying to convince the world he is a tough guy in order to survive emotionally. Matt pulls that off beautifully imo precisely because of his baby face. His friends have given him the only examples of honor, integrity and kindness...so even though he is different from them he behaves like them because they provide safety and acceptance. The smoking and the cussing is all part of it. And he's gotten good at it, dangerously comfortable in his costume and fiercely protective of it. He doesn't even want his gift of genius (savant may be a better term?), it threatens him.

So the theme of the movie is not a genius janitor. It is the story of an abused and unwanted child with great potential on a journey to know himself and genuinely be himself. People who don't know about the bad things don't have to battle with that fear of them. He knows about the bad things, they are the first things life showed him...this is what makes him likable. It's why as viewers we are pulling for him to succeed.

[–] Wuchakk 11 years ago

Excellent insights, pmaile; I'll take them into consideration the next time I view the film. Thank you.

=========================

"I... don't... see... any... method... at... all... sir."

[–] jimmyjameson8 10 years ago

Nailed it.