MovieChat Forums > Lost Highway (1997) Discussion > One solid reason the time-loop doesn't w...

One solid reason the time-loop doesn't work and...


I have only read about 1/500th of the posts on here about the movie, so if I am posting something someone already said, please, do not freak out. Ideas concerning films aren't copyrighted, and I don't need some psycho telling me they already posted that 2 years, 6 months and 4 days ago. Anyway (my opening DID have a purpose)......

I am sure there have been many posted reasons why the time-loop "theory" or whatever you want to call it, doesn't work, but I think this is the most straight-forward and simplest explanation of why the time-loop theory does not work and why none of this is really happening in reality:

The cops following Pete are following him because of what happened in the jail cell (Fred transofmring into Pete and therefore being let out and into the custory of his parents). Therefore, these cops know about Fred killing Renee.

Towards the end these cops talk with the other cops (the cops who originally were at Fred's house because of the videotape) and establish who Renee is (We find out that it is the same person - in my original viewing, I thought it possible they could be twins. However, it being a Lynch film, my original viewing had me open to any and all possibilities knowing that I am only scratching the surface and will only begin to understand after further requisite viewings).

Then, these cops go by Fred's house and when they see Fred, they chase him. So, it can't be a time loop, because supposedly, Fred is inside the house (with Renee alive) hearing "Dick Laurant is dead," which is where the film began. Fred having to flee so quickly explains why the "original" Fred saw nobody when he looked out his window (he did take his merry old time) to see who was out there.

Anyway, I just thought that was a good simple explanation of why this is not an issue of a time-loop, but more a question of an alterate reality, or a created or imagined reality, or a purgatory-style reality (which fits in well with the existence of the Mystery Man, I think).

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Therefore, these cops know about Fred killing Renee.

Not necessarily.

Given we understand the film as being composed of three segments (Fred I, Pete, Fred II), we're seeing Renee alive at the Lost Highway Hotel in Fred II. Also, when Fred arrives at his house and speaks into the intercom, there's audibly somebody picking up at the other end. Since it can't be Fred talking to himself, it can only be Renee. In this setting, we would assume that the cops know Renee only from her calling them to the house, to investigate the video tape situation.

And the reason why the cops would be coming to the house in the first place is the murder of Andy, the photograph with Renee in it and them consequently investigating a possible link between Andy's murder and the Madisons. Where they'd start chasing Fred only because he starts running.

E.g. look how the cops are approaching the house, more or less casually strolling along with weapons still holstered. That's not how you'd approach the house of a convicted murderer you're expecting to possibly meet there.

Fred is inside the house (with Renee alive)

The common understanding is that she isn't alive anymore during the opening scene. Most likely it's the morning following her murder, where Fred starts creating a straw man story in his mind to lock recent events out of his conscious memory.

And the "Dick Laurent is dead" intercom incident might really have been purely accidental, like it reportedly happened to Lynch in real life, thus providing a random starting point to base that alternate and distractional story on.

So that would be the opening scene, and the rest of the Fred I segment up to the face slap rather a flashback.

That said, a "time loop" interpretation doesn't fit anyway in several regards, and would rather be wishful thinking of a simplifying mind. Lynch himself, when confronted with this reading, answered that it would rather be a "spiral". His polite ways of saying that it's not at all what they had in mind when writing the stuff.

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"The common understanding is that she isn't alive anymore during the opening scene. Most likely it's the morning following her murder, where Fred starts creating a straw man story in his mind to lock recent events out of his conscious memory."

****Good point - that opening scene, with Fred looking like holy hell, isn't necessarily the beginning of our experience with Fred. There is scant evidence that it is, indeed, the morning after the murder, but that's a very interesting way of looking at that scene. Coupled with the intercom, it makes perfect sense that this is the beginning of the "building of the levy", if you will.

The randomness of the name "Dick Laurent" is used as a matter of convenience more than anything else - it's the first brick in the wall.

Please nest your IMDB page, and respond to the correct person -

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Also, when Fred arrives at his house and speaks into the intercom, there's audibly somebody picking up at the other end. Since it can't be Fred talking to himself, it can only be Renee.

I disagree. There is the scene where Fred is talking to Mystery Man at a party and then he calls his house and speaks to Mystery Man there. I interpret Mystery Man to be an aspect of Fred Madison; something like his conscience which is bothering him.

I think that and the intercom and the video tape stuff are all artistic ways of saying that what we are watching is an interior monologue. Essentially the whole movie shows a man talking to himself. The mystery, the guilt, the jealousy, the violence, the desire for escape, etc. It's all Fred.

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what we are watching is an interior monologue

Certainly a legit way to look at it. In this case, it'd again not be a "time loop" but rather kind of a self fulfilling prophecy, I'd say. Fred picking up a random sentence at the beginning and ultimately fulfilling it's implications, if only in his mind. Staying busy enough on the way to not be confronted with his actual situation - except some unwanted corpse flashbacks, that is.

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"Dick Laurent" is used as a matter of convenience more than anything else

Which would be a variant of Hitchcock's MacGuffin I guess. But this time meant to capture the protagonist's attention rather than the viewers'. Or at least finding the protagonist being more than ready to get captured ...

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Well, regardless, I am glad most of his movies have the unique quality that really incite thought and conversation which incites more thought and conversation, etc.. His films are mental aerobics and I do love to exercise.

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Light exercise.

What people apparently tend to experience as troublesome is trying to differentiate between what's deliberately been left open or not.

In this case though, it's fairly easy to see through the patterns, e.g. when focusing on the dialog first. From there, it becomes apparent how much memory, or lack thereof, is the central theme of this film.

Even the construction methods become apparent when just looking a the spoken text. From there, anything else - like visuals and sound - fall into place.

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I see.

Clearly you have it all figured out then.

So, considering this supreme intellect you are seem to be insinuating you possess, I would be very interested in reading or viewing some of your work. That is, if you have ever created anything or have any abilities other than boasting your own ego. If so, I am definitely interested in the work of such an intellectually superior being as yourself.

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Haahahahaahahaha.

I'd even take the credit, despite the infantile irony it's being wrapped in, if you weren't suffering from a fundamental misunderstanding. It's not so much a matter of brightness you possess. It's rather a matter of work you're willing to do.

But then, so many people think the one single reason for their failure is the lack of god given gifts. Instead of just getting their lazy butts moving and trying to accomplish something.

This just a comment on your general attitude, as it speaks out of your words, and totally unrelated to the film of course.

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My general attitude is a response to your general attitude. Eventually, you will find out that there is a connection with the way you behave and the way people treat you.

Even in this post, you go on about people getting off their lazy butts and accomplishing something. So, I will ask again, since you are being such a preacher on this topic and judging others' work, can you direct us to some of the things you have gotten off your lazy butt and accomplished?

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I could. But I'm not seeing any necessity.

And don't make it "us". It's you trolling, nobody else.

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raimund, your conceit is revealed in your premise that anyone who doesn't come to the same conclusion as you about a fictional movie must be lazy.

You have made mistakes in your life. Were they because of laziness? I can see where you've made mistakes regarding this movie but I wouldn't accuse you of laziness. A person running a marathon who takes a wrong turn and runs 10k further than they have to isn't lazy. Just misguided.

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Nice poem. Very creative. Hope you'll find an editor.

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I don't write poems. I just write what I think. But I do take the time to write in sentences rather than fragments.

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No poem?????

But then ... wait ... you're not trying to tell me that you're expecting anybody to attribute any meaning to that mumble jumble of yours, do you ...

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...but.....wait...don't...dots...mean...whatever...is...being....said....is....really.....deep?

Anyway, the phrase is "mumbo jumbo".

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Dots indicating brief moment of reflection obviously, to try and drive some sense into your mumble jumble.

Apropos mumble jumble: http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=Mumble%20Jumble

You're trying too hard.

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You didn't really just give some level of credibility to the Urban Dictionary, did you?

"Your mother's in here with us, Karras. Would you like to leave a message?"

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[deleted]

The opening song explains it all as David Bowie says I'm Deranged. Yes, Lost Highway is a story about a man who is completely deranged and has murdered his wife and the man she was cheating on him with. Basically the entire movie takes place in Fred's head as he sits on death row. In 'real life', Fred discovers that his wife Renee is having an affair with a man named Dick Laurent. He follows them to a hotel and sees them having sex. After Renee leaves Fred attacks Laurent and brings him out to the desert and murders him. He then returns home and after some time ends up murdering Renee. He's arrested, tried, and sentenced to death. However Fred is unable to come to terms with what he did. The first half of the movie leading up to his imprisonment is Fred's distorted memories of what happened as he awaits conviction. You remember when he spoke to the detectives and told them he likes to 'remember things his own way...not necessarily how they happened"? Well this holds true. He doesn't want to remember what happened but his mind won't let him. His guilt surfaces in the form of the videotapes, representing his snooping to learn about Renee's affair. The Mystery Man represents the actual crime, the violent murders. When he tells Fred that he's in his house, he means the murder that Fred committed. After his arrest, rather then deal with the truth of what he did, Fred goes inside his mind. In his mind he creates a new personality for himself, and in his mind he's released from prison and sent home to live in his 'new life'. However his mind won't let him forget and the truth begins to seep into his fake reality. His family and friends make reference to "that night" but won't speak of it. "That night", of course, is the night he murdered his wife. Dick Laurent appears as Mr. Eddy and then even Renee enters his dream world as Mr. Eddy's girl, the now blond Alice. Soon his dream world starts to clash with the reality of what he did, and when his dream world personality comes undone, he finds himself as Fred once again. The last part of the movie is Fred reliving what actually happened before he murdered Renee--finding Dick Laurent, confirming his wife's affair, and then murdering Laurent. He goes home to tell himself that Dick Laurent is dead and then leaves as the cops chase him. Now remember, this is all in his head and as he's driving away down the lost highway of his mind, in real life he's being lead to the electric chair, completely unaware of what's happening. When we see Fred in the car start to burn and twist and convulse, that's because in the real world, Fred's being electrocuted in the chair. The title Lost Highway represents his lost mind, unable to cope with reality as his minds wonders down the lost highway of his soul

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Well done.

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It all took place in Fred's head alright but I think it is impossible to differentiate between reality and fantasy. I don't believe that we're ever given any conclusive proof as to his wife's adulterous ways. It's a surreal universe after all and it is important to note that we're only treated to Fred's perspective of her.

Clear eyes, full hearts, can't lose.

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I like this a lot!

jc

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I really appreciate this cogent theory. It explains all of the perceived incongruities that had perplexed me.

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The opening song explains it all as David Bowie says I'm Deranged. Yes, Lost Highway is a story about a man who is completely deranged and has murdered his wife and the man she was cheating on him with. Basically the entire movie takes place in Fred's head as he sits on death row. In 'real life', Fred discovers that his wife Renee is having an affair with a man named Dick Laurent. He follows them to a hotel and sees them having sex. After Renee leaves Fred attacks Laurent and brings him out to the desert and murders him. He then returns home and after some time ends up murdering Renee. He's arrested, tried, and sentenced to death. However Fred is unable to come to terms with what he did. The first half of the movie leading up to his imprisonment is Fred's distorted memories of what happened as he awaits conviction. You remember when he spoke to the detectives and told them he likes to 'remember things his own way...not necessarily how they happened"? Well this holds true. He doesn't want to remember what happened but his mind won't let him. His guilt surfaces in the form of the videotapes, representing his snooping to learn about Renee's affair. The Mystery Man represents the actual crime, the violent murders. When he tells Fred that he's in his house, he means the murder that Fred committed. After his arrest, rather then deal with the truth of what he did, Fred goes inside his mind. In his mind he creates a new personality for himself, and in his mind he's released from prison and sent home to live in his 'new life'. However his mind won't let him forget and the truth begins to seep into his fake reality. His family and friends make reference to "that night" but won't speak of it. "That night", of course, is the night he murdered his wife. Dick Laurent appears as Mr. Eddy and then even Renee enters his dream world as Mr. Eddy's girl, the now blond Alice. Soon his dream world starts to clash with the reality of what he did, and when his dream world personality comes undone, he finds himself as Fred once again. The last part of the movie is Fred reliving what actually happened before he murdered Renee--finding Dick Laurent, confirming his wife's affair, and then murdering Laurent. He goes home to tell himself that Dick Laurent is dead and then leaves as the cops chase him. Now remember, this is all in his head and as he's driving away down the lost highway of his mind, in real life he's being lead to the electric chair, completely unaware of what's happening. When we see Fred in the car start to burn and twist and convulse, that's because in the real world, Fred's being electrocuted in the chair. The title Lost Highway represents his lost mind, unable to cope with reality as his minds wonders down the lost highway of his soul


This is pretty much what the film is about. It's the same as Mulholland Drive. A person does something horrible they can't deal with, and creates dream worlds to try and remedy the feelings of guilt until reality catches up with them and they die.

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Basically the entire movie takes place in Fred's head as he sits on death row.

The first half of the movie leading up to his imprisonment is Fred's distorted memories of what happened as he awaits conviction.


That is exactly what i needed to read, i was complety lost after watching the movie the whole thing made no sence.

Now, the beginning of the movie, and i'm confuse here, was it a memorie of the morning after he murdered his wife, or of the day after he murdered Dick? I was reading other comments and i'll chose the first. The sound of the police meant he was going to jail soon, but that didn't really happened because there was no one outside the house, the movie was telling us that "Dick Laurent is dead", everything we see during the rest of the first half of the film is after Dick dies and before he murders her, but a distorted memorie like you said, Dick was already dead in those memories and i think Fred got rid of the body somehow, no one knows Dick is dead, the police never mentioned his death.
Fred: Dick Laurent is dead, isn't he?

Andy: Dick can't be dead. Who told you he was dead?.


This means Fred is the only one who knows, he murdered him.
I don't think the conversation with Andy in the party happened the way we see it of course (when Fred ask about the Mystery Man), so i don't know if Fred really asked Andy about Dick.

I thought the "mystery man" was a person watching Fred and Dick in the hotel, this person was sending the tapes, he thought Fred was a criminal or a murderer, maybe he followed him that night and that's how he knew where he lives.
But now i agree with you, he and the tapes were a representation of the crime and the affair.

This is the way it makes more sense to me, but i'm still not sure if the first half was after and not before he murdered Dick, it might be before he found out Renee was chating on him, mostly because of this quote http://www.quotes.net/mquote/56970 but i don't know..(?)
And i haven't read the Lost Highway FAQ yet.

Something else, i don't think Andy died, the scene where the police is at the scene of the crime didn't happened, they say they found Pete's fingerprints but Pete is a fantasy, Frank didn't kill Andy, no one did, he didn't die.
Funny, because when i saw the movie i really thought that scene was real somehow. So, am i wrong?

Thanks for the great post, what you said about the electric chair at the end, i had no idea.

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He goes home to tell himself that Dick Laurent is dead and then leaves as the cops chase him.


Hold on. Why don’t the cops chasing him recognise him when they later come to investigate his house?

Also, how does he ‘tell himself’, and why is the intercom voice at the beginning clearly not Pullman’s?

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The film and subject matter are based on a mental condition called psychogenic fuge. Which is a mental condition that occurs when an extremely traumatic experience occurs. The mind fabricates a new identity for the person to remove all memories of the trauma that were experienced. It is obvious that Fred Madison and his wife have a unspoken uneasiness about there relationship...is it infidelity, trust issues or is it just all in Fred's head? Whatever they may be you can tell that they are becoming more and more uncontainable by Fred...Also I must say this...the movie is shown out of sequence...David Lynch jumps the images and story lines. example: earlier in the film Fred Madison tells his wife, after an unsuccessful sexual intercourse session, about a dream that he had, he tells his wife that she was calling his name but he couldn't find her, Lynch shows shots of Fred walking the house looking for his wife and you can hear his wife Rene saying Fred, Fred, where are you...Then he says I found you but it wasn't you it looked like you but it wasn't you. Then we see the camera zoom in fast to a sleeping Rene who is awoken and screams in terror... Now if you watch the scene right after the kabuki man/Robert Blake scene, after Fred searched the house because he thinks someone is inside, we hear a phone ring and see the same exact seen that Fred said was a dream actually happen, you even see the close up of Rene saying Fred, Fred, where are you? As she looks into the blackness.....and Fred is wearing the same clothes he is wearing when he said it was a dream (obviously Fred remembers it as a dream not an actual occurrence, I like to remember things my own way. Not necessarily how they happened) ....Fred goes and retrieves the last video tape and then he watches it he sees himself in his bedroom with a dismembered Rene. When he is in jail he is having migraine headaches and is constantly tormented by memories of his dismembered wife....he cant sleep and its obvious he is becoming delusional....he reaches a breaking point and his mind fabricated this alternate persona called Pete Dayton. The scene with the blue light and his head shaking rigorously back and forth. Now removing himself and assuming a new mental identity(remember he is still in the jail cell his mind is just inventing a new reality for him) he is free to relive his life to the fullest. Pete is everything Fred wasn't a hit with the lady's, has tons of friends, very popular and has a lust for life.....nothing could be better till Mr. Eddy brings Alice(the blonde Rene)with him to the garage....Pete who is just a mental projection from Fred sees her and is immediately entranced by her...geee i wonder why? And instead of just being content with his "new life" he goes after his one addiction Alice/Rene. Its all *beep* and giggles in the beginning until Mr. Eddy and Pete's girlfriend find out whats going on....from there he gets himself back into the same pickle his mind tried to get him out of....this is all supported by the fact that at the end of the flick when Fred is being chased by the police we see him start to physically change in the face and his head starts shake back and forth and he starts to scream, the same way he did in the jail cell, until he vanishes off to his next identity.

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NovaIncognito et al:

I've read about 100% up until the following discovery way back in about 2006, originally posted by me in the thread "A Key" which is probably long gone. Here it is, once again...

SPOILER ALERT!! I still think this works the best, at least for me.

Do not read unless you want a complete plot exposition with details:



There is a key in the film as to its meaning."

-David Lynch on Lost Highway


This is almost too easy. I could get real elaborate, but it's late and I just want to get this down because otherwise I'll never get to sleep. Besides, I don't want to give it all away.

Just watch the film with the following thoughts in mind:

Fred is a murderer. He had Dick Laurent killed because Laurent was having an affair with his wife, and Laurent was also the kingpin of a crime syndicate that included a pornographic film business, which used Fred's wife Renee in some of his films.

Why would anyone give Fred a message that "Dick Laurent is dead?" Because Fred needed to know this since he's the one who paid to have Laurent killed.

Andy killed Renee--or was at least an accomplice in bringing about her death. Why'd they kill Renee? Because they worked for Laurent and Fred had had Laurent killed.

The beginning of the film is pretty much straight depictions of actual events. Each tape delivered shows more of the house. What's the message being sent? "We're watching you." Why send this message? Laurent's loyal henchmen want Fred and Renee to call the cops to watch their house.

Why would the gang want surveillance on Fred's house? Because they're going to set him up to get caught "red-handed."

When Fred goes to play sax at night, Renee stays home. She's not just goofing off, though, she has a job. Andy has her starring in a new porn film, to be shot in Fred's "sound-proof studio." She has probably been doing these films for some time. Cute bit here--Fred plays sax, Renee plays sex.

They actually do make a film, but not the one Renee was expecting. They kill her and wait for Fred to come home. Then they film him discovering the body. I think, but not sure here, that Fred promptly goes bonkers after he sees the body. He doesn't know he's been filmed. He doesn't even remember seeing the body. He doesn't want to remember. This is his "madness" of denial.

They send Fred the tape of him with the body. All the earlier "surveillance" scenes are also on this tape. The scene with Fred standing in the carnage is the Big Finish. Fred is faced with the "evidence" of what he has seen, but he doesn't remember witnessing it.

I think the cops come to the house while Fred is watching the tape. Either that or he brings them the tape after he sees it. He says "tell me I didn't do it" because he really doesn't know. The line is also important because in a way he "did it" since by killing Laurent he brought on the murder of Renee as retaliation.

Fred gets convicted of the murder and is imprisoned, presumably on death row.

While on death row, he is tormented by his inability to figure out what exactly happened to Renee. He still thinks he might have killed her, but he doesn't know for sure. "Could it have been me?" he wonders. If it was someone else, he probably suspects why they killed her--but he suppresses this thought, because either way, he would be responsible. He’s so distraught he has terrible headaches and can’t sleep.

The prison doctor gives Fred a strong sleeping pill and tells him "You'll sleep now." And Fred does. He has a dream.

Mulholland Dr Spoiler Alert! (skip next paragraph if you don't want to see the spoiler)

Unlike Mulholland Dr, where the film begins with the dream, Lost Highway's dream sequence begins later in the film. Interesting that, in Mulholland Dr we're told exactly when the dream ends--the Cowboy tells Diane "it's time to wake up." In "Lost Highway" we're told exactly when the dream starts, the doctor tells Fred "You'll sleep now."

In Fred's dream, he wakes up in prison and is a different person. He gets out. He is now a capable young man who can go get revenge. He realizes in the dream how Renee was killed, and who did it. His dream self goes out with his "spirit guide" Alice, the re-incarnation of Renee, to kill Andy. She not only takes him to Andy, she also becomes his lover again and shows him where she, as Renee, had her liaisons with Laurent--at the Lost Highway hotel.

Alice has to leave, though. She tells Fred's dream-self that he'll never have her. Of course not, she's a phantom. The main wish-fulfillment of the dream goes sour and Fred turns back into his sorry old self, but his quest for answers continues. He finds Mystery Man in the same cabin where Alice disappeared. Mystery man is now his "sprit guide" in the dream. Mystery Man shows Fred how and where Laurent died. He even points out that Fred really killed Laurent, even though it was murder for hire.

How does the Mystery Man know this? Because he killed Laurent.

Fred hired Mystery Man for the hit on Laurent. Mystery Man is an accomplished assassin. "In the East, the Far East..." Fred doesn't know his name, of course. Hit men don't tell you their name.

In his dream, Fred goes back to his house and announces to himself that Dick Laurent is dead. His subconscious is telling him that he is a killer, and he must take responsibility. It's a double-edged sword. He got that bastard Laurent, but he also caused his own wife's death.

Back in the beginning of the film, it was Mystery Man who reported to Fred that Dick Laurent was dead. The job was done, and presumably he wanted to get paid whatever the agreed-upon completion fee was.

Fred winds up on the Lost Highway at the end of his dream, because his subconscious is telling him that his plan for revenge has come to nothing but endless pain. He screams and the light comes up. Fred is about to wake up back in his prison cell, screaming in agony.


“But keys are weird. There are surface keys, and there are deeper keys. Intellectual thinking leaves you high and dry sometimes. Intuitive thinking where you get a marriage of feelings and intellect lets you feel the answers where you may not be able to articulate them.”

-David Lynch on Lost Highway



So, the key is not the whole answer. The rest of the film's symbolism and meaning are "felt." But the key is important to beginning to understand.


"I rarely agree 100% with anybody on anything. Not even myself." GS

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I like this a lot. I'm gonna read it again in the morning while my head clears...with a little help from my friend...coffee.

Thanks for sharing!

Cheers!

This is my siggy. It appears, automagically, when I post.

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This interpretation can't be right because Lynch himself has said that Fred Madison killed Rene: "I was sort of obsessed with the O.J. Simpson trial. Barry and I never talked about it this way, but I think the film is somehow related to that.

What struck me about O.J. Simpson was that he was able to smile and laugh. He was able to go golfing with seemingly very few problems about the whole thing. I wondered how, if a person did these deeds, he could go on living. And we found this great psychology term -- "psychogenic fugue" -- describing an event where the mind tricks itself to escape some horror. So, in a way, "Lost Highway" is about that. And the fact that nothing can stay hidden forever."

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It was his son Jason

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