This movie feels like it should have been a bigger deal - Star Trek: Generations (1994) Discussion

[–] bozo_500 (13150) 2 years ago

yeh the much anticipated crossover movie (Kirk meets Picard!), also the 1st TNG movie (essentially TNG The Motion Picture), and had the Enterprise D destruction, introduction never seen before Enterprise, time travel, klingons, Malcolm McDowell as the villain, just everything (culminating in the biggest event of all Trek - the death of Kirk).. The only thing really missing was of course the entire original cast (or spock & bones)

It should've been Star Treks Endgame but turned out more like Star Treks Eternals

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[–] legnadibrom (6248) 2 years ago

when it came out in the cinema it was all the rage

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[–] strntz (12454) 2 years ago

At the end of the day (or is it millenium), viewers just don't like to watch their friends and heroes die, at least I don't. The Wrath of Khan is great but I never watch it because Spock dies (even though I know he comes back).

I don't watch The Search for Spock because Kirk gets Spock back but his son dies.

I don't watch Generations because Kirk dies.

I don't watch The Final Frontier because the whole movie dies.

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[–] Wuchak (8772) 2 years ago

As far as I'm concerned, "Generations" is easily the best of the Next Generation films and ranks with the best of the franchise. It was a big deal when released for Christmas, 1994 (or early 1995 most everywhere else), and very successful at the box office. While the next film, "First Contract," did even better at the box office, I prefer "Generations." "First Contact" is a crowd-pleaser (not that that's a bad thing necessarily) whereas "Generations" has more depth in the tradition of Roddenberry's original vision.

For instance, the concept of the Nexus is fascinating: No matter how much we want it, an illusory paradise is just that — an illusion. This concept and its implementation into the storyline is nothing short of brilliant. Who created the Nexus? Who else but the Talosians, the 'antagonists' of Trek's very first episode, "The Cage," a tale repeated in the Original Series’ only two-parter “The Menagerie."

There are several other highlights: The usual Trek humor, Data’s amusing experiences with the emotion chip, Malcolm McDowell’s outstanding performance as the mad Soran, his believable obsession and justifications, B’Etor & Lursa and the renegade Klingons, the startling obliteration of them and their vessel, the thrilling crash-landing of the Enterprise-D, the meeting of Kirk and Picard in the Nexus, the final showdown with Soran and Kirk’s death.

This “passing-of-the-torch” installment requires an attention span and an appreciation for high-concept sci-fi; it will bore to tears those for whom Star Trek means only neato spacecrafts and superficial space dogfights (not that there's anything wrong with that, lol). In addition, Generations has the gonads to make bold changes — killing off a major iconic character, and fairly prominent support characters as well, not to mention destroying the Enterprise-D.

As for the supposed plot holes some armchair critics whine about, they're actually pretty easily explained.

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[–] MillerJones (539) a month ago

No

I would say the best generations film is First Contact & Nemesis after.

It did well at box office because it was hot straight after the end of tv show.

Nexus really doesn't make any sense neither does the poor story for the movie.

The movie started well with Ent-B but started to go silly when they was able to transport some of the people out that is when it started to make 0 sense on wards.

Easily explained ok if you say so many which cant be.

Explain how its claimed you cant get into Nexus via a ship because they get damaged/destroyed yet Kirk gets into it that way,

Explain how Klingons penetrate Ent-D shield dont target something important so ships fine but they dont change shield frequencies something they had to do for the Borg on regular basis so they allow themselfs to be hit multi times again when you look at locations none of them are major systems (Later on klingons are going to target bridge before they are hacked and destroyed)

Many others as well

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[–] Wuchak (8772) a month ago

My order for the TNG movies would be: Generations, Nemesis, First Contact, Insurrections.

I find the Nexus a brilliant sci-fi concept and cleverly inserted into the story, not to mention it interestingly provides the means for the two captains from different generations to meet (which is superior to the overdone time-travel method). The Nexus links to the very first Star Trek story, the original pilot "The Cage" and the 'antagonists' of that tale, the Talosians (an episode repeated, of course, in the Original Series’ only two-parter “The Menagerie"). You can't get much more Star Trek-ian than that.

I'll look at those other supposed plot holes you mention the next time I view the film and get back to you here. I'm pretty sure they can be easily explained by some technical loophole. It is, after all, science-fiction, not science-fact. As such, practically every episode and movie could be ripped to shreds if viewed with an exacting eye of rigid scrutiny.

At least there's no eye-rolling scene of the engineer bringing his wounded nephew to the Bridge instead of Sick Bay, as was ludicrously done in the hailed "Wrath of Khan."

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[–] Wuchak (8772) a month ago

Nexus really doesn't make any sense

As I pointed out, the Nexus was probably created by the Talosians from "The Cage" and "The Menagerie," who were obsessed with providing an illusionary sanctuary for qualifying people, like Pike and Vina. If not created by them, it was formulated by a race like them, with a similar perspective.

Since Star Trek is intrinsically about encountering the unknown in outer space -- and the myriad mysteries thereof -- the Nexus doesn't have to make perfect sense. It simply exists in the Star Trek universe and the protagonists have to deal with it. Great mysteries go hand-and-hand with space exploration.

Explain how its claimed you cant get into Nexus via a ship because they get damaged/destroyed yet Kirk gets into it that way

It's established later in the movie that Soran was unable to safely fly a ship into the ribbon, which explains his highly creative (and mad) scheme to destroy a star in order to manipulate the Nexus ribbon to the planet Veridian III. This is where he'll be able to safely enter back into an illusionary 'paradise,' which is like a drug to him and he's addicted. As such, it doesn't matter to him that hundreds of millions of humanoids on a nearby planet will perish.

In the beginning of the movie, two ships transporting El-Aurians were inadvertently snared by the mysterious energy ribbon with one vessel being destroyed, costing 265 lives. Kirk's Enterprise is able to save 47 refugees in the other ship before it's also destroyed, costing 103 more lives. But the Enterprise becomes trapped by the ribbon and is heavily damaged before escaping. Unfortunately, the ship's hull was breached and Kirk is presumed dead since he went to the Deflector Control area to help the ship escape.

This entire opening segment showed that encountering the Nexus via a space vessel was very dangerous and so trying to enter it this way was nigh suicidal. As such, Soren had to concoct a safer, surer way to enter the weird extra-dimensional realm, which took him 78 years to figure out.

I'll address your other technical cavils once I give the film a rewatch; give me a week or so, thanks.

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[–] MillerJones (539) a month ago

You are not correcting the errors which have been pointed out so not sure why you are quoting.

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[–] Wuchak (8772) a month ago

I did answer your main criticism:

Neither Kirk's Enterprise nor the ships carrying El-Aurian refugee came in intentional contact with the Nexus. The refugee ships were inadvertently snared by the mysterious energy ribbon and the Enterprise came to rescue them. The Enterprise was only able to save some of the refugees before the ships were destroyed. A total of 318 people lost their lives; only 47 were saved. Meanwhile the Enterprise incurred heavy damage and Kirk is declared lost in space, but was actually transferred into the Nexus. You can attribute this to James T. Kirk's acclaimed luck or, perhaps, the Nexus was able to receive him because the hull/bulkhead was removed prior to claiming him. Remember, the Enterprise wasn't trying to fly into the ribbon, it was simply assisting the refugees.

If this is what happens with inadvertent vessel contact with the Nexus, then obviously you shouldn't try to enter the ribbon by directly approaching it with that intent; that is, if you want to live. As such, Soran had to come up with a creative plan to get back into the Nexus, which took almost eight decades of research and planning. Even then, he was taking a risk, but he was addicted to the illusory 'paradise.'

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[–] Wuchak (8772) 15 days ago

Explain how the Klingons penetrate the Enterprise-D shields, but don't target something important, so the ship's fine but the Enterprise controllers don't change the shield frequencies, which is something they had to do when facing the Borg on a regular basis; so they allow themselves to be hit multiple times. Yet, when you consider the location of the hits, none of them are major systems. (Later on, the Klingons target the Bridge before they are hacked and destroyed).

This was an outcast band of renegade Klingons using a long defunct Bird-of-Prey, so Picard & the Enterprise had zero worries about their sudden uncloaking. What Picard & Co. didn't know is that these outlaw Klingons bugged Geordi's visor and thus were able to acquire the modulation specs of the Enterprise shields. Once they got it, they rashly torpedoed the ship. Remember, these weren't official Klingon military personnel, so they acted out of impulsive fervor rather than discipline (which is clear in the sequence), not to mention they probably weren't savvy of the Enterprise's vital areas beyond the basics.

The entire battle only lasted a little over a minute in which the Enterprise was clearly in motion. Within that short time, the Klingons were able to hit both Engineering and the Bridge before the Enterprise was able to destroy the Bird-of-Prey.

Why weren't the Enterprise controllers able to change the modulation specs of the shields within that time frame? The Enterprise was taken totally by surprise by these bush league Klingons (who are a far cry from The Borg). They simply weren't braced for a serious attack and so were unable to quickly change the modulation specs for one reason or another. One possibility is that the first attack damaged something in the computer system, which hindered them from quickly changing the specs. Or maybe the controller of that particular console got knocked out; or maybe s/he was in the restroom. That last one's a joke but, seriously, there are any number of possible reasons.

Details like these don't have to be spelled out by moviemakers, particularly in the heat of battle. The creators are more concerned with executing a compelling sequence. The viewer simply assumes that there's a good reason why the Enterprise personnel weren't able to change the shield specs faster.

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[–] Wuchak (8772) 15 days ago

You speak of "many other" supposed plot holes as well. I'm sure one of them is this oft-cited one, which happens to be easily explained:

Picard's purpose in leaving the Nexus was to stop Soran from annihilating the Enerprise-D crew and the entire Veridian solar system, including the 230 million people that live on Veridian IV. Since Picard could leave the Nexus and "go anywhere any time," as Guinan pointed out earlier, why go to Veridian III about a minute before Soran launches his rocket? Why not go back to when Soran was a guest on the Enterprise-D and apprehend him then and there? Writer Ronald D. Moore defended Picard's decision on the grounds that Picard didn't want to risk the dangerous and unexpected consequences that can occur when tampering with the timeline; hence, his journey back in time from the Nexus is only a matter of a minute or so.

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[–] MillerJones (539) 12 days ago

You are making up nonsense to try make out your points are valid.

It's in the movie you can not enter via ship they get destroyed Soren even states he tried every method for the many years he had been alive and the final way he finally got into it was the only way.

People rescued or died is meaningless that as well is iffy how the transport was able to grab some of them that was old days transporters as well.

You can't defend the ship being beaten the way it was it's stupid Geordi comes back is in sickbay and they dont check his visor what a load of tosh and next yes a ship which should not be a threat penetrates shield yet they dont change modulation come on this is things which was done in tv series.

As I said before they should have done it excluding geordi when they decloak they with first shots hit vital systems that would make more sense they didn't.

You missed point tht data could change modulation as well again shown in the tv show and he does it in the film which follow this against borg.

Just tell it as it is they want the tv ship destroyed so they made up a silly story to do so.

yes the timeline argument which you could say by him going back to that time he should have encountered himself.

its just poorly written movie which did have potential.

Did you never watch the tv series you do know those klingons was in it right somethign else they sort of ignored in the movie that picard and ent had running ins with them in past

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[–] Wuchak (8772) 11 days ago

How am I "making up nonsense" when I'm sharing data straight from the movie or speculations based on data from the movie (and TV series)?

It took Soran 78 years, but he figured out how to reenter the Nexus -- by manipulating the extra-dimensional ribbon to come to him. Kirk only luckily got into the Nexus when the Enterprise was trying to rescue the two ships carrying El-Aurian refugees. I suspect he got in only because the bulkhead of the Deflector Room was destroyed first, and thus the Nexus just swept him up, which is basically what happens with Soran later in the movie.

The Enterprise-B was able to transport 47 of the refugees over before the mysterious space ribbon destroyed both vessels, which cost the lives of 318 people. How is this unbelievable in the fantasy world of Star Trek, which is science-fiction?

You can't defend the ship being beaten the way it was

Actually, the Enterprise-D beat the renegade Bird-of-Prey since they plainly blew it to smithereens. The only reason the Enterprise suffered a warp-core breach in the clash is because, again, Picard & Crew were taken off guard due to the Klingons acquiring the shield coordinates via Geordi's bugged visor.

Speaking of which, the transmitter the Klingons installed in his visor was cloaked somehow, which explains why no one detected it when Geordi arrived on the Enterprise. If they can successfully cloak their entire Bird-of-Prey, they can easily conceal a bug in a visor.

As I said, there are multiple possibilities why the Enterprise-D wasn't able to change the modulation specs of the shields within the short time of the battle. The creators don't have to explain every minute detail of such things, especially since this was a feature film and not a TV episode in which only .01% of viewers would even care about such minutia. Their purpose is to tell an entertaining story, not bog it down with unnecessary details. As for Data, he was hampered by his new emotion chip, experiencing fear during the dogfight and so forth, which explains his failure on this point. What takes place in the next movie is the future wherein Data had obviously learned a thing or two.

they want the tv ship destroyed so they made up a silly story to do so

Starships get destroyed in space all the time in Star Trek, particularly as the result of a dogfight. It goes with the risk of space exploration. How exactly is this "silly"?

Picard simply reentered his body on Veridian III after leaving the Nexus, which explains why there weren't two of him. Remember, in the Nexus you can "go anywhere, anytime," including reenter your own body at a particular moment in time. Or perhaps the creators of the Nexus abided by certain laws, such as: Anyone who chooses to leave and go back to conventional reality wherein s/he existed will automatically take over his/her own body so that there's not two of them existing in the same reality.

It's clear that the Bridge crew recognized B'Etor & Lursa. They were renegade Klingons using a long defunct Bird-of-Prey, so Picard & Crew had no worries when they decloaked, but they were in for a rude awakening due to the Klingons' ingenuity.

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[–] MillerJones (539) 7 days ago

WOW you just make up things as you see fit.

You keep repeating same old not correcting the mistakes.

YOU CAN NOT ENTER NEXUS COMPLETELY VIA SHIP (yet Kirk got in that way its a mistake just own up to it stop side stepping making excuses)

Cloak on visor that is funny stuff.

Thank you again you have shown you have no clue about Star Trek it's know fact from creators they wanted ship destroyed because it was tv ship not fit for movies you do not even appear to understand this

jog on enjoy watching your re runs of this perfect in your mind movie.

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[–] Wuchak (8772) 6 days ago

YOU CAN NOT ENTER NEXUS COMPLETELY VIA SHIP (yet Kirk got in that way its a mistake just own up to it stop side stepping making excuses)

The Enterprise-B didn't try to enter the Nexus, it was simply attempting to transport people over from the two rescue ships inadvertently caught in its sudden appearance. It was able to escape, but not without losing the bulkhead of the hull near the Deflector Room. Kirk was only able to enter the Nexus because this wall was removed prior to his being 'taken.'

Also, the Nexus is a mysterious phenomenon in the Star Trek Universe. No one in the movie knew absolute truths about it beyond the most general facts, including Guinan and Soran (who once occupied it). In other words, it's useless to cite absolute truths about this weird space anomaly, such as "YOU CAN NOT ENTER NEXUS COMPLETELY VIA SHIP." While this might be a general fact -- and two vessels & 318 people were lost this way at the beginning of the movie -- additional factors, including unknown ones, may facilitate a person entering the mysterious energy ribbon.

Cloak on visor that is funny stuff.

'Cloak' in this context simply means conceal. The renegade Klingons used technology to conceal their spyware in Geordi's visor from any Enterprise sensors. The movie doesn't spell this out, of course; it's just assumed since security personnel were unable to detect the spyware. It's not necessary to bog the film down with details that are irrelevant to a compelling story.

it's know fact from creators they wanted ship destroyed because it was tv ship not fit for movies

...and they came up with a credible way to destroy it in the Star Trek Universe -- a space dogfight with rebel Klingons. Vessels get destroyed in such clashes all the time in Star Trek.

enjoy watching your re runs of this perfect in your mind movie

I never claimed it was perfect; no movie is. It's, admittedly, a little convoluted and overstuffed. I simply detailed how your specific nitpicks don't stand up to scrutiny. With a little info and imagination they can be explained away.

If you want to look for colossal plot holes, check out the hailed "The Wrath of Khan." Two glaring examples include: Starfleet & their cartographers not realizing that an entire planet was missing from the Ceti Alpha system, not to mention Scotty bringing his wounded nephew to the Bridge rather than Sick Bay (rolling my eyes).

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[–] strntz (12454) a month ago

For instance, the concept of the Nexus is fascinating: No matter how much we want it, an illusory paradise is just that — an illusion. This concept and its implementation into the storyline is nothing short of brilliant.

The nexus is indeed a fascinating phenomenon. There are few such things in sci-fi as compelling as the nexus. Maybe the Krell power generator in Forbidden Planet qualifies, or the sentient HAL in 2001.

The reason I've only seen this film once is that Kirk dies in it. I spent 60 years watching James T. romp around the universe and giving The Shat a death scene ruins the film for me.

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[–] Wuchak (8772) a month ago

I respect your perspective, but he had to die sometime in the Star Trek universe and, after almost three decades from Kirk's debut, "Generations" was as good a time/place as any.

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[–] strntz (12454) a month ago

Yeah, but Kirk could have - would have - lived forever if Picard didn't get him.

Without the Nexus, Kirk would have died by the time of Next Gen, but I wouldn't have had to watch it.

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[–] Wuchak (8772) a month ago

Kirk's death was a statement by the creators in 1994 -- the Original Series films with the original actors are gone for good. Time for TNG's cinematic run, which lasted 9 years.

"Generations" is a quality installment in the franchise, filled with gems to mine. It's definitely worthy of repeat viewings.

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[–] strntz (12454) a month ago

I agree with you on both points, but it still comes down to to me, and what I don't want is to watch my heroes die - which is why I personally won't rewatch Generations. As great as Wrath was (I saw them all first run starting with TMP) and despite my enthusiastic ravings of Wrath of Khan to my friends imploring them to see it, I rarely rewatch it and never the part where Spock dies.

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[–] Aylmer (488) a month ago

The movie was kinda given an "average" appraisal when it came out. Nobody seemed to love it or hate it really that much. Then with Red Letter Media skewered it back around 2009 or so, that led to a system-wide re-evaluation of the film. I agree with pretty much everything they said. I hate all the TNG movies because they took a somewhat slow, cerebral TV show and tried to turn it into a series of action-movies.

This movie did indeed drop the ball on coming up with a smart way to get Picard and Shatner together, and then it didn't have them do much together either that made any sense. Soren was a pretty weak villain too.

As weak as Star Trek V was, I'd rate this as even worse, because at least V had a few good scenes sprinkled in there, like when McCoy has to face his pain, etc.

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[–] Dogiswhite (1312) a month ago

I agree but it was still a good if not great film. Also with his ego, I'm surprised that Shatner didn't insist Kirk be in more of the movie.

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