Would anyone else have chosen Alfred?
Alfred is awesome and I'd have chosen him over Tristan any day. You?
shareNah. Alfred was a great guy and all (and obviously the safe, sensible choice) but he's no Tristan. :)
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MovieChat Forums > Legends of the Fall (1995) Discussion > Would anyone else have chosen Alfred?
Alfred was boring and dry. Tristan was LIFE. I loved how the movie glorified all his entrances and exits from screen. Music swells. Everyone stops what they are doing. Tristan rides his horse in slow mo through the fields. He was like the cowboy hero at the start of Romancing the Stone. No one else compared with him around. Samuel and Alfred knew it.
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The snowflake makes it cold cold cold, Set temperature makes it hold hold hold.
I love Alfred but he was dumb for marrying Susannah knowing she was in love with Tristan.
shareBrad (Tristan) was in his prime in this movie. Just about as good looking as good looking possibly gets. He wins and that's pretty much no matter what his personality is like.
shareheynow, you gottit, in a nutshell.
Guys with looks like that always win, be it at interviews, girls or even guys!
I feel that Aidan Quinn was also at the height of his beauty in this movie. He hasn't aged as well as Brad has.
shareI'm probably in the minority here but Brad Pitts looks have never done it for me. He's too pretty for my taste, I prefer men who aren't conventionally handsome.
And as far as the Tristan character goes I've never been into the wild-man type of guy.
So if I had to choose between the brothers I'd pick Alfred everytime since he's closer to my type.
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You couldn't get a man that looked like that who are you kidding?
shareI'm with you all the way. Pitt's look never appealed to me. He's too pretty I guess. I'd choose Alfred's character as well as Aiden Quinn every time.
shareAdien Quinn was cool in Stake Out. Im from the Northwest and I have some gangster cousins in Seattle. I wonder if the writer who created Quinns villian charactor knew my bad boy cousin.
shareThe only time I ever found Aidan Quinn "hot" was in "Desperately Seeking Susan" (a New Wave flick from the 80's with Madonna).
But it wasn't just his blah looks that bored Susannah, but his dull values and stodgy, old-man ways, long before he was old enough to be that way. It wasn't, as One Stab says, Susannah's fault that she didn't love him. She had a power of attraction that stopped all the men in their tracks, even Col. Ludlow, who calls her "intoxicating".
You could see that, the minute she laid eyes on Tristan (and the reverse), that was it! That's how the story was written and though Brad Pitt has never been my absolute favorite actor, he was quite excellent in that role. They were made for each other, but Fate split them apart.
Alfred was a total fool to marry her! She could never have been happy with him, in his posh house, kowtowing to the corrupt businessmen and government lackeys! He only redeemed himself at the end by saving Tristan and his father from the O'Banyon brother and the Sheriff.
Nothing is what it seems. Everything is a test. Rule #1: Don't...get...caught.
You could see that, the minute she laid eyes on Tristan (and the reverse), that was it! That's how the story was written and though Brad Pitt has never been my absolute favorite actor, he was quite excellent in that role. They were made for each other, but Fate split them apart.
Completely disagree with that.
The only person who I feel was 'made for' Tristan was Isabelle Two!
And after watching the movie again it's even more obvious to me...first off Isabelle has known Tristan all her life, they have a very special bond that no one else shares.
AND she's much more of a 'frontier' type of woman then Susannah. Tristan may be a white man but he's got the spirit of a Native American with his deep friendship of One Stab and his love for the wilderness.
Isabelle just fits him so much better then Susannah, even when Tristan and Susannah were 'together' we see her love for him but he was always a million miles away in his mind, when we see him with Isabelle it's totally different.
Even in his narration One Stab talks about how Tristan found a true happiness with her that he had never had before. And her death truly broke his heart in a way we didn't see with Susannah when she died.
I'm not saying that Tristan didn't have feelings for Susannah but I just get the feeling that him and Isabelle were meant to be, and even if Susannah had never crossed his path he and Isabelle still would have ended up together.
P.S. I always love how Isabelle says so bluntly to Susannah as a little girl that 'she is going to marry Tristan', and she was right!
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Alright...I sense that your disagreement is HEAVILY influenced by personal reasons. Are you Native American? If not, do you think that they are more "worthy" than all Whites? Don't get me wrong: I'm white and often think that...but you cannot base a believable storyline on that, much less someone's choice of a partner!
People who fall in love rarely do so with the ones who "fit best" or are "most compatible",etc., but with those who, for whatever reason, THEY WANT AND LONG FOR BEYOND ALL REASON!
If you have never known this kind of raw passion, which can lead to great joy OR tragedy...or both...then I feel bad for you. I have known it and come "out the other side", scarred but intact! I can't explain it further (regarding my situation anyway) but love rarely has ANYTHING to do with "reason" or "fitting with another" and so on.
You write:
You could see that, the minute she laid eyes on Tristan (and the reverse), that was it! That's how the story was written and though Brad Pitt has never been my absolute favorite actor, he was quite excellent in that role. They were made for each other, but Fate split them apart.
[quote]Completely disagree with that.
The only person who I feel was 'made for' Tristan was Isabelle Two!
And after watching the movie again it's even more obvious to me...first off Isabelle has known Tristan all her life, they have a very special bond that no one else shares.
AND she's much more of a 'frontier' type of woman then Susannah. Tristan may be a white man but he's got the spirit of a Native American with his deep friendship of One Stab and his love for the wilderness.
Isabelle just fits him so much better then Susannah, even when Tristan and Susannah were 'together' we see her love for him but he was always a million miles away in his mind, when we see him with Isabelle it's totally different.
Even in his narration One Stab talks about how Tristan found a true happiness with her that he had never had before. And her death truly broke his heart in a way we didn't see with Susannah when she died.
One Stab NEVER SAYS THAT! He only states something like "Time goes by and we find happiness too soon." He is basically stating that Tristan jumped into thinking he was "HAPPY", before Fate and the world would let him be! LISTEN TO ONE-STAB!
He is saying that Tristan is actively SEEKING a false, peaceful happiness, unlike the tumultuous love for Susannah, that will not tax his nerves. Everyone wants that but it is seldom obtainable!
I'm not saying that Tristan didn't have feelings for Susannah but I just get the feeling that him and Isabelle were meant to be, and even if Susannah had never crossed his path he and Isabelle still would have ended up together.
P.S. I always love how Isabelle says so bluntly to Susannah as a little girl that 'she is going to marry Tristan', and she was right! []
OH yeah! She married Tristan alright...and IT COST HER HER LIFE! I would not be putting Smiley Faces next to THAT!
Point 1. Knowing someone all your life does NOT guarantee love, but maybe compatibility. That is NOT..I repeat NOT TRUE ROMANTIC LOVE! Believe me, I know! Actually, a 13-year-old girl LUSTING after a twenty-something man, no matter how well she knows him, is NOT OK! That is not only a terrible reason to bring these two together but is also criminal, if Tristan had given into it earlier! She was just another 'tween with a crush!
Point/contention 2. "Isabel was "made for Tristan"?
A. HOW? WHY? What the HELL does THAT mean? Because she was Native American? Isn't that more than a BIT RACIST??? ALSO, to go on that, it's also grazing the law against PEDERASTY! She was only THIRTEEN years old when she said that to Susannah. AND...did Tristan ever ONCE say he reciprocated those feelings? NO. I should hope NOT! Otherwise, the Sheriff could have jailed him for something MUCH WORSE than bootlegging!~
Point 3: (the "Frontier Woman" thing): WHAT??? First of all, you JUST CONTRADICTED YOUR PREVIOUS ARGUMENT! Native Americans were NOT "Frontier women" or "Frontier people"! They had lived there for tens of thousands of years! IT was NOT a "frontier" to them, but their ancient home! HOW is that in any way comparable to the Whites who colonized the Frontier (do you even know what that MEANS?) or experience of Whites who took over Indian lands because they thought it was their "Manifest Destiny"? Pleaase: LOOK IT UP!
And, BTW, the actress who played the grown Isabel Too was NOT all Native American, but part Tahitian and European! I REALLY don't think the producers put too much thought into this issue!
"She was born in Tahiti, the daughter of Henry Lombard, then 58, the Swiss-Russian heir to a Geneva banking dynasty, and Nupuree Lightfoot, a Lakota Indian medicine woman some 30 years his junior." From:
http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0518312/bio?ref_=nm_ov_bio_sm
As for your idea about Susannah and Tristan and why it went wrong: YOU say:
Isabelle [sic] just fits him so much better then Susannah, even when Tristan and Susannah were 'together' we see her love for him but he was always a million miles away in his mind, when we see him with Isabelle it's totally different.
WHY IS THIS? I contend that it had NOTHING to do with Susannah but with Tristan's own guilt that he could not save Samuel from being killed, even though it was Samuel's OWN stupid decision to go fight the Germans. (btw: WWI was NOT like WWII! The former was all about profits and money, not a psycho trying to conquer the world).
As for THIS claim by you:
Even in his narration One Stab talks about how Tristan found a true happiness with her that he had never had before. And her death truly broke his heart in a way we didn't see with Susannah when she died.
Did you actually WATCH THE FILM??? One Stab also says: "Time goes by and we feel safe too soon." (among other things that indicate that Tristan had MISSED his one chance at happiness with Susannah, and in seeking it with Isabel Two, had found only a small part of it, that was ultimately false, not the REAL LOVE of his life, but rather, someone comfortable to him and approved of by his relatives.
The guy who seemingly risked anything for love and wildness, gave that up just to feel "safe" in the arms of a girl he had known since childhood. How lame is THAT?
And in the end, he was unwilling to give up his own idea of how to live, whether it meant hurting Susannah, his brothers, his father and even Isabel Too...and it cost her her life.
The "villain", if there IS one here, is NOT Susannah, but Tristan himself and his fatal flaw, like a Greek mythological hero, though he is claimed as the "hero" by One Stab. I believe that there CAN be no hero or heroine, no "right" or "wrong" person. Things are as they are, with the odious O'Banyon's and the corrupt sheriff.
Nothing is what it seems. Everything is a test. Rule #1: Don't...get...caught. share
Whoa...no offense but I think you need to calm down, if I offended you or anything I apologize, it's only a movie no need to get all worked up!
Alright...I sense that your disagreement is HEAVILY influenced by personal reasons. Are you Native American? If not, do you think that they are more "worthy" than all Whites? Don't get me wrong: I'm white and often think that...but you cannot base a believable storyline on that, much less someone's choice of a partner!
Why would you think that?
Because I said that Tristan had the 'spirit' of a Native American?
I thought that was just a given in the movie...he was more into that way of life. It has nothing to do with thinking Native American's are more 'worthy' then Whites. I don't know how in the world you drew that conclusion from my post.
I'm white by the way
If you have never known this kind of raw passion, which can lead to great joy OR tragedy...or both...then I feel bad for you. I have known it and come "out the other side", scarred but intact! I can't explain it further (regarding my situation anyway) but love rarely has ANYTHING to do with "reason" or "fitting with another" and so on.
Raw passion is all well and good, and Tristan and Susannah definitely had passion but that in itself is not enough to sustain a long and happy relationship if you are not a kin of spirit!
Susannah and Tristan had passion but I just personally get the feeling that they were too different. It would never have worked long term.
One Stab NEVER SAYS THAT! He only states something like "Time goes by and we find happiness too soon." He is basically stating that Tristan jumped into thinking he was "HAPPY", before Fate and the world would let him be! LISTEN TO ONE-STAB!
He is saying that Tristan is actively SEEKING a false, peaceful happiness, unlike the tumultuous love for Susannah, that will not tax his nerves. Everyone wants that but it is seldom obtainable!
He says "it is hard to talk of happiness, time goes by and we feel safe too soon." And then he goes on to say that Tristan entered the quiet 'heart of his life'. Or something like that...and we get a montage of Tristan and Isabelle together and this ends with Tristan and his new 'family' all smiling and joyful coming face to face with Susannah and Alfred who are both miserable.
I feel it is very obvious that Tristan was the happiest he'd ever been since the death of Samuel. That most certainly is NOT a 'false happiness'!
OH yeah! She married Tristan alright...and IT COST HER HER LIFE! I would not be putting Smiley Faces next to THAT!
Yeah and Susannah killed herself because Tristan rejected her at the jail...what's your point?
Isabelle died, people die, that does nothing to negate the happiness she brought to Tristan, and how happy they were together before those jerks killed her.
Knowing someone all your life does NOT guarantee love, but maybe compatibility. That is NOT..I repeat NOT TRUE ROMANTIC LOVE!
It's true that it is not always a guarantee of love, but it's also true that people who know each other all their lives CAN and sometimes DO form a bond that can turn into love (I've seen it).
Actually, a 13-year-old girl LUSTING after a twenty-something man, no matter how well she knows him, is NOT OK! That is not only a terrible reason to bring these two together but is also criminal, if Tristan had given into it earlier! She was just another 'tween with a crush!
Ok now you are truly acting ridiculous. I'm sorry but where did I say, or where is it implied that Isabelle was 'lusting' after Tristan as a little girl? She loved him, it was a pure love, and he loved her in an equally pure way. When she grew up that love turned to romantic love for both of them.
There is nothing wrong with that! In her heart she always felt that someday she'd end up with Tristan and she was right, I think it's sweet, so sue me!
"Isabel was "made for Tristan"?
A. HOW? WHY? What the HELL does THAT mean?
YOU were the one who said 'Susannah and Tristan were 'made for' each other, I was just saying that if anyone was 'made' for Tristan I think it was Isabelle.
Your words, not mine.
Point 3: (the "Frontier Woman" thing): WHAT??? First of all, you JUST CONTRADICTED YOUR PREVIOUS ARGUMENT! Native Americans were NOT "Frontier women" or "Frontier people"! They had lived there for tens of thousands of years! IT was NOT a "frontier" to them, but their ancient home! HOW is that in any way comparable to the Whites who colonized the Frontier (do you even know what that MEANS?) or experience of Whites who took over Indian lands because they thought it was their "Manifest Destiny"? Pleaase: LOOK IT UP!
Oh good grief, are you going to analyze my words with a fine tooth comb?! Ok I'm sorry I said 'Frontier Woman' what I meant was that Isabelle was more of a 'country girl' LIKE Tristan, they were alike in that way. Susannah for all her attempting to be a country girl was definitely more of a city type.
I could care less if Isabelle was Native American, White, or freakin Swahili! She had a similar 'wild spirit' that matched Tristan's, that is all that I meant!
Did you actually WATCH THE FILM???
Yes I watched the film, many times.
And I happen to have a different OPINION then you, simple as that. I don't appreciate these personal attacks, I respect your opinion but I feel almost like you are attacking me because I happen to think Isabelle was better suited to Tristan then Susannah.
For what it's worth I'm of the opinion that Tristan's true love was always the wilderness anyway, but that Isabelle was the one who got the closest to him because they had a real connection with each other.
Tristan and Susannah had a great passion, I agree with that, but Tristan and Isabelle had a spiritual bond and were very much kindred souls.
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If YOU got offended, then I'd repeat your own words:
Whoa...no offense but I think you need to calm down, if I offended you or anything I apologize, it's only a movie no need to get all worked up!.
I MAY take the time to respond to your post but if I get sidetracked by other stuff...don't take it personally. Well, you CAN, but that's your choice.
I sense a negative energy here (in your post) and I would need to use much more care and tact in replying to it than I care to, given my blunt approach, lest I offend you even more!
So if you don't hear from me...I'd advise letting the whole thing drop. After all, it's just a movie.
Nothing is what it seems. Everything is a test. Rule #1: Don't...get...caught. share
I'm not offended, I was just taken aback is all, I wasn't expecting such a lengthy response.
I sense a negative energy here (in your post) and I would need to use much more care and tact in replying to it than I care to, given my blunt approach, lest I offend you even more!
I'm a very easy going person, I don't mind a civil discussion or debate so long as opinions are respected.
Maybe I misinterpreted some of what you were saying as attacks, if so I'm sorry. It's too easy on these boards to misread things sometimes.
So if you don't hear from me...I'd advise letting the whole thing drop. After all, it's just a movie.
Yeah it's just a movie, if you want to talk that's cool, if not, no harm, no foul.
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Hey it's a bit late but I wanted to come and show my support for you Weber!
I actually came to this thread because I actually thought Alfred was pretty hot :) But then I saw the argument between you and the other lady.
I agree with everything you said :) I definitely thought even on first watching the movie that Tristan and Isabelle Two were more suited, their spirits and temperaments were more similar and most importantly they fell in love at the right TIME.
Other than the "country" versus "city" girl factor I think timing had a lot to do with it. I think that if Susannah had still been at the farm when Tristan returned, they could have gone the long run. I still think Isabelle Two and Tristan was more suited but you don't always love the one you're suited to the most, and I definitely think Tristan loved Susannah as much as he could during the time they were together but that his heart was clouded by guilt over Samuel's death and also longing to be on an adventure and get away from all his problems. But when he came back he was peaceful and if she had waited for him, then I think they would have gotten married and Isabelle Two would have just remained like a sister to him. I think Susannah felt that way too and that's why she was so torn up with regret over her choices.
Unfortunately Susannah was already married (not her fault and he never blamed her) and so he was free, and then he met Isabelle Two and fell in love again and it was beautiful :) No drama and guilt like with Susannah, just pure bliss and joy. And the movie went over it really quick but they had 2 kids and were actually together as husband and wife for quite a long time and went through many emotional milestones so of course by the end he felt much more deeply for his wife than Susannah, which explains the difference in the reaction to their deaths.
Unfortunately Susannah was never able to move on from the relationship like Tristan did and so took her own life rather than live in regret with Alfred. Which was a shame because Alfred is really pretty awesome! He was charming and intelligent and carved out a place for himself in the world from nothing. He lived according to his own principles, just that they were different from his father's and Tristan's who were much more similar. Anyway that was the original point I came to make (that Alfred is awesome)! Didn't realise I wrote so much yikes!
I agree heavily with most of your post until I get to the last paragraph.
I see Alfred as a two faced crook. He was jealous of his brother. He made Tristan feel more guilty after he returned from the war which is why the relationship with Susannah failed for Tristan. Alfred voted for the Volstead Act after he got elected to political office and then drank illegally and supported the O'Banion brothers who were essentially gangsters bootlegging whisky and lining his pocket with political money.
Hey it's a bit late but I wanted to come and show my support for you Weber!
Aww, thanks moonshinechance!
I agree with everything you said :) I definitely thought even on first watching the movie that Tristan and Isabelle Two were more suited, their spirits and temperaments were more similar and most importantly they fell in love at the right TIME.
Other than the "country" versus "city" girl factor I think timing had a lot to do with it. I think that if Susannah had still been at the farm when Tristan returned, they could have gone the long run. I still think Isabelle Two and Tristan was more suited but you don't always love the one you're suited to the most, and I definitely think Tristan loved Susannah as much as he could during the time they were together but that his heart was clouded by guilt over Samuel's death and also longing to be on an adventure and get away from all his problems. But when he came back he was peaceful and if she had waited for him, then I think they would have gotten married and Isabelle Two would have just remained like a sister to him. I think Susannah felt that way too and that's why she was so torn up with regret over her choices.
Oh I don't doubt that Tristan had feelings for Susannah, and that if Susannah hadn't married Alfred that Tristan would have married her when he returned. I just don't think that their relationship would have been as 'perfect' as some people make it out to be.
I think Susannah in someways was a constant reminder of his brother, and even if he had married her their would have forever been that sense of 'guilt' present and eating away at their relationship.
It was actually a good thing for Tristan in a way that she married Alfred because it allowed him to finally 'put to rest' Samuel for good. I'm of the opinion that he sort of already let Susannah go in his heart when he penned her that letter telling her to 'marry another' and that's why he wasn't that upset when he discovered she had married Alfred on his return...he had already put that phase of his life to rest, and although he might have 'loved' Susannah the truth was that their relationship happened at the worst time in his life, a time he was all too eager to put behind him.
Unfortunately Susannah was never able to move on from the relationship like Tristan did and so took her own life rather than live in regret with Alfred. Which was a shame because Alfred is really pretty awesome! He was charming and intelligent and carved out a place for himself in the world from nothing. He lived according to his own principles, just that they were different from his father's and Tristan's who were much more similar. Anyway that was the original point I came to make (that Alfred is awesome)! Didn't realise I wrote so much yikes!
I also believe that a big reason why Susannah killed herself was because she couldn't have children. Yes losing Tristan played a huge part in it, but I always getting the feeling that if Susannah had given birth to a child, even Alfred's child, she wouldn't have 'pulled the trigger.' A child would have given her something to live for, and it might have helped her to finally let Tristan go.
It wasn't just seeing Tristan happy with his new 'wife' that broke her heart, it was seeing him happy with a family, with children, that she wished she could have even if it meant having them with Alfred. Without children all she could cling to was Tristan, and when he rejected her that was the finally straw that broke the camels back.
I always feel sorry for Alfred because he was guilty of only one thing and that was...he wasn't Tristan.
He was the city boy at heart...who couldn't really understand his father and vice versa, just like his mother couldn't.
He was the son who was the most like his mother, the same way Tristan was the most like his father, and when Alfred finally stopped trying to be something that he wasn't and go his own way... his father essentially disowned him. I like to think that in the end his father finally realized that he'd done Alfred wrong when he hugged him in his own form of apology.
But anyway I'm rambling, but it's nice to know I'm not alone in thinking Isabelle Two was the better match for Tristan. I sometimes wonder if Tristan and Susannah had married if their relationship would have eventually ended up like his mother and fathers...with Tristan staying on the ranch and Susannah hightailing it for the city once her infatuation with Tristan and his 'wildness' disintegrated over time.
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Wow you raised some really good points.
I never really thought about it that way but I do agree with you thinking about it, that Tristan and Susannah if they ahd married probably would have had a less than charmed life. And perhaps Tristan's message to Susannah was not so much because he thought he was never coming back, but that he had already let her go in his heart/realized their relationship wouldn't work, irrespective of whether or not he was coming back.
Yeah and I think you're also right in saying that if Susannah had children with Alfred she would have found some measure of joy, since one of the things she really wanted to feel like she belonged and had a "family".
Good points! I'll bear those in mind next time I watch the movie.
While I respect your opinion, I've never seen it this way. I believe the immense pain Tristan felt over losing Samuel was too much to bare and Susannah was a constant reminder of his guilt. However, despite all of this, he still loved her very much and it was definitely more than just passion. When Tristan returned the first time, he thought he was doing better and began acting upon his feelings for Susannah, but when the cow was tangled in barb wire essentially recreating Samuel's death and had to be put down, his feelings of guilt resurfaced. He was clearly suffering from PTSD, so to cope, he left to try to find clarity. When he wrote the letter to Susannah, I believe it was out of love. He knew he was not in the right state of mind and didn't think he would return home and if he did, he know that he, at least in that state, couldn't make her happy the way she deserved. The note was written to free her, so she could officially be happy, which I believe he did out of selflessness only coming from true love, not because he truly let her go. This is proven when Tristan returns the second time with obvious intentions of marrying her because now in sane mind, he believed they would be able to be together. He even goes to speak with her, not his brother and when he sees her in the garden, you can see it in his face how much he still loves her and even more so as he explains to her the reasoning behind sending her the bracelet while persuading her to keep it. I believe he married Isabelle two because he was lonely and while he cared very deeply for her, I don't feel his love for her was the same as that for Susannah. This movie is about his love for his brothers as well and despite not getting along with Alfred, he still respected him and his marriage to Susannah. When he found out she did not wait and married his brother and speaks to her in the garden, that is when he lets her go and not a second before. After his wife is killed and Susannah comes to visit him in jail, he is distraught and tells her to go home because she is indeed married to his brother and his wife had just died, however; I believed he still loved her despite knowing they would never be together. When he receives the news she has passed, you can tell beyond doubt he loved her and that it broke his heart. I am not debating his love for Isabelle, but I believe his true love was Susannah. He wanted to make her happy with all his heart, but it was beyond his capacity. He did come back for her despite the letter he sent ending their relationship hoping she kept her promise of waiting for him, but when she did not, he moved on which is life. Not for one second does this mean he never loved her; their fates were intertwined, but due to the horrible circumstances he knew they could never be together. Putting another's happiness above your own is true love in its purest form.
shareWhat an excellent analysis! You caught all the various emotions and moral questions that stopped Tristan and Susannah from realizing their love:
When Tristan returned the first time, he thought he was doing better and began acting upon his feelings for Susannah, but when the cow was tangled in barb wire essentially recreating Samuel's death..., his feelings of guilt resurfaced. He was clearly suffering from PTSD, so to cope, he left to try to find clarity. When he wrote the letter to Susannah, I believe it was out of love. He knew he was not in the right state of mind and didn't think he would return home and if he did, he know that he, at least in that state, couldn't make her happy the way she deserved. The note was written to free her, so she could officially be happy, which I believe he did out of selflessness only coming from true love, not because he truly let her go. (Italics mine) Excellent!Exactly! I never believed for a moment that he went to see Alfred (who knows how upset and angry he was, after his brother basically takes advantage of Susannah's loneliness so she'll marry him?!).
This is proven when Tristan returns the second time with obvious intentions of marrying her because now in sane mind, he believed they would be able to be together. He even goes to speak with her, not his brother and when he sees her in the garden, you can see it in his face how much he still loves her and even more so as he explains to her the reasoning behind sending her the bracelet while persuading her to keep it.
I believe he married Isabelle two because he was lonely and while he cared very deeply for her, I don't feel his love for her was the same as that for Susannah.I thoroughly agree! His whole chemistry with Isabelle is very tame and tepid. Sure, he seems "happy" but I'd call it more content, that he's got someone, starts a family and for once, isn't flipping out any more. Being with someone you like and who caters to you (as Isabelle does) is very seductive! But I sensed that their bond was more platonic than romantic. There are no great highs or lows, no burning passion between him and Isabelle, just mild-mannered cuddling, long talks and walks around the fields--very Young Love or, they could even be brother and sister (which Alfred says) if it weren't for the sex.
Love with Susannah was fraught with pain and drama, not because it wasn't real, but because of circumstances (that Susannah was his brother's fiancee and that Tristan feels guilt over Samuel's death). Alfred's jealousy sure doesn't help and BOTH of them have forms of mental illness; Susannah is depressed (you see this more in the novella) and Tristan has PTSD, along with a violent streak and problems with alcohol!. For them to want to stay together DESPITE all this show a real, deep, passionate love, as far as I can see.
This movie is about his love for his brothers as well and despite not getting along with Alfred, he still respected him and his marriage to Susannah. When he found out she did not wait and married his brother and speaks to her in the garden, that is when he lets her go and not a second before. After his wife is killed and Susannah comes to visit him in jail, he is distraught and tells her to go home because she is indeed married to his brother and his wife had just died, however; I believed he still loved her despite knowing they would never be together. When he receives the news she has passed, you can tell beyond doubt he loved her and that it broke his heart.
You analysed this beautifully! Despite his estrangement from Alfred, he cared enough about him to respect his marriage. In a way Tristan was more noble and moral than Alfred, who skulked around, chasing Susannah and badgering her while Tristan was gone, badmouthing him, saying that he couldn't make her OR Isabelle happy and then resenting him that Susannah doesn't love him. He's a bitter, envious and petty man, until the very end.
Don't get me wrong...
It might be unbelievable,
But let's not say so long share
Beautiful and moving assessment. I agree with everything you wrote. I've watched this movie over 50 times and I think this is exactly what Brad and Julia conveyed. That's why LOTF is such a tragic but passionate love story.
shareI agree and think the other poster was unnecessarily rude to you. I read all the posts and saw no occasion for you to be patronised or come down upon so heavily.
I think Tristan was probably capable of lusting after a great many women and I believe with Susannah it was just that. There was a tense sexual chemistry between them that was visible almost from the start which needed to work on-screen and was probably why Samuel was portrayed as the weaker link - to make it easier for the audience to see things through Susannah's eyes. The actor wasn't a heart throb but Brad Pitt had raw sex appeal.
I definitely think Isabelle Two was infiniely more suitable. She didn't seem like the type to pine - she was naturally more of a country girl and down to earth. By contrast, Susannah was emotionally exceedingly needy and this was very evident when Tristan went off on his travels. She was sort of hanging around him whimpering and inadvertently pleading with him to stay, saying she could make it better for him but she wasn't ever going to make Tristan happy and vice versa. Even bathing in the river she was going on about naming their kids and he was completely miles away thinking of something else.
Tristan and Isabelle were at one with nature and as you say had a deep spiritual bond.
Has anyone seen my wife? - Columbo
I don't think you know what true love is. Isabel has psycholgical issues. This was Hollywoods plan. Susannah and Tristan were one. Not the child who had issues. Such a contradictory film. His character was not meant to be like what they made him
shareYour approach to looking at the film is amazing.
1) Tristan's character is contradictory. You have a man who is capable of unconditionally loving his brother, but no one else? You have a man who loves the outdoors, but he has to be restless everywhere?
2) Isabel is a 16 year old child in the book. This was merely hollywood trying to promote huge age gaps again. At 20 she is still developing in more ways than one. In the book she throws herself at him. There is no love involved. In the movie they show how she predicts they will marry. An awful attempt at trying to turn it into a love story.
3) Historically these sorts of relationships were becoming extinct after the big science boom. People realized why it was so wrong.
4) Tristan should have returned from his journeys looking like a 60 year old man. Look at old images of people who explored! They did not look even younger when they returned. The same happens today.
And I HATE how they didn't show what bootlegging was about. A very selfish human being did bootlegging. They cared only for money AND NOT family safety.
They were showing how happy he was with a woman who was a child, yet forgot to show the bootlegging and how selfish he was. They then showed how the gunmen came and shot his wife.
Susannah LOVED him. He did love her. Their love wasn't based on him liking her looks. They comforted each other when Samuel passed. He was meant to be a passionate human being yes but that doesn't mean you are a reckless toerag who treats women like dirt.
They did so much wrong by keeping Jim's version. This type of man should not be called a legend under any circumstance. He uses women, hurts anyone regardless of what happens.
Live like there is no tomorrow... but there is. A very true saying.
He didn't march to his own tune. He hurt anyone wherever he went. Why promote such a character?
And native american theme became a joke too. In the actual culture this behaviour would never be accepted. Just because she was part native doesn't mean they were suited. She was a CHILD and a means to an end.
He loved susannah if he loved anyone. To spite her, he even stole her idea of naming their son samuel.
All in all the film became a joke.
Man, what a shippers! I didn't read the book but since this discussion is about the MOVIE, and this is not a fandom of something, I think bringing in things from the book is unnecessary. First of all, stop telling people that they don't know real love for how they read a fiction romance, for God's sake! It's funny that this other person who went almost berserk defending ~Tristan and Susannah's love~ said something similar. You're wrong in the moment you think there's just one kind of ~real love~ or something. There are different dynamics and personalities, and situations that make infinite ways of finding love and love. Also how it starts!
Personally I don't find this movie is about a love story but about these characters and what they went through. Also, I do prefer love stories where there's passion, and life changing factors and like just for instance, I don't like love stories between best friends/ people who've known their whole life because I actually don't like that thought about who suits you better, who deserves you more, etc. just because they've known you their whole life. I don't like love stories about people just being used to each other but about people who can't help but love and want to be with each other. But the thing is, I didn't find this in Tristan and Susannah's story and this time I think it matters with whom he looked happy. There's something anybody can't deny and it's that they loved each other but their love story is not a great one, it wasn't in the best moment, it wasn't healing, it wasn't life changing, it just- wasn't. Again, this is about the MOVIE, I don't know the book but it never felt Susannah was Tristan's love of his life and you feel it was in Susannah's case and that's why it fails to be a great love story. I'm not saying Isabel was, some people just happen to not find one, mainly someone like him but I did find more appealing the peace she gave him in this case that how tormented he was while being with Susannah.
Absolutely agree with everything said here. No reason for the responder to freak out like she did and call you a *racist*! I mean--what the heck?? That accusation just came out of NOWHERE. An emotional over-reaction...
My opinion: Tristan is an unrealistic character, but that's ok. He represents a part of America's history; he's a frontier man akin to Leatherstocking/Deerslayer; he's a white man, but he's not white; he's an Indian, but he's not an Indian; he's a warrior. He's married to history and death (both the same). Alfred's character represents modernization, bureaucratization, etc. His character is hostile to the past--and strengths and weaknesses--which Tristan's character represents. They both are powerful men, only in different ways (American individualism vs. American empire).
As an actual human, Tristan's behavior is ludicrous, inconsistent, melodramatic, often cruel, and extremely hypocritical. After being accused of being responsible for his brother's death (clearly absurd), he abandons his lover (who could be pregnant for all he knows!) to go off and adventure. He never marries Susannah before he leaves, thus ruining her hopes for future marriage (with most respectable men of that time). He is only capable of sacrifice for a younger brother; later he only knows how to protect those he loves with a gun/knife. He bootlegs, thus endangering everyone around him--they are not in dire straits financially, so why? WHY?? He's breaking the law and putting his family's stability at risk.
He is his best self when he is with Isabel Two and their children. Their love is beautiful and simple and pure. They are compatible. Isabel Two is the woman that was strong and constant; she was the one that truly waited for his return. I think that's the most beautiful part of this film (apart from the scenery and Aiden Quinn's face ).
As for me, I personally would choose Alfred every time. I am partial to Aiden Quinn, but I also sympathize with Alfred's character more. I can relatively easily forgive his political corruption and hypocrisy as his personal weakness. Some people on this forum have claimed that he is manipulative; I don't think he's clever enough or even capable of interpersonal manipulation. He loved Samuel just as much as Tristan and is hurt just as much; he just shows it in a different way. He works hard to create an empire of fortune and provides stability for the woman he loves; yet never receives the same devotion that Tristan does. He is sensitive and deeply hurt and confused by this. Also, I like to pretend that scene where the gangsters provide liquor to his party doesn't happen; it seems ludicrous that he would buy from the men responsible for killing Isabel Two. Also, it seems unlikely that he would not support the ranch financially in any way. Of course, I can't rewrite the movie. But w/e I still like Alfred better. At least he's not melodramatic and doesn't run off and abandon people. He just yells at them every once in awhile out of confused anger/hurt. Big deal. I could handle that. I could not handle my lover silently freaking out, being melodramatic, endangering my life/stability/our children, and running off to Timbuktu for years and years. I need a communicator! no drama lol
Note: Reference to the book is irrelevant here in a discussion of this movie. The book stands on its own to be analyzed and critiqued. I haven't read it; it is irrelevant to me.
Agreed. Good writing.
shareI liked Alfred way more. Guys like Tristan only enjoy using women. Tristan was a tool.
shareAlfred for me. Not only way better looking than Tristan (sorry) but when he loved, he loved with everything.
shareThat is hilarious. How did Tristan use Susannah and Alfred not use Susannah? Alfred was the primary reason that Tristan left Susannah. Once Tristan was cured of his sorrow for his brother's death he was a perfect family man. He even refused Susannah's desire for him in the jail cell after he lost his own wife.
Alfred is the one who is a tool. He was a tool for gangsters who controlled his political life. A political life where he votes for the Volstead Act to make booze illegal and then secretly supports bootlegging. Alfred treated Susannah like a trophy wife and wanted her to play a role as the politician's wife. He knew she didn't really love him. Alfred even blames Tristan when she killed herself even though Tristan isn't at fault for their inability to have children. Perhaps Alfred should have been courting his wife more instead of his political love.
I see the Alfred/Tristan dynamic in my own family, though in this case it is brother/sister rivalry, not brother/brother.
My sister who has lived her life 'by the book', doing everything she was supposed to have done- married into the upper middle class, raising her kids to be 'trophy children'- while I have pretty much danced to the beat of my own drummer, shunning a lot of societal conventions and breaking a lot of the rules (not like Tristan, but in my own way). And yet, curiously, my sister gets very emotional and cries to my parents, accusing them of loving me more than they love her. She's done everything right and I've done everything wrong, how can they love me more than her?
I think the tragedy of someone like Alfred is that he thinks all these outside 'things' (doing the right thing according to society) will make people (his father, Susannah) love him more. In reality, his obsession with doing the 'respectable' thing make him less of a 'natural' man, and make the contrast between him and Tristan even greater, making Tristan more unusual, more 'different', and therefore more prized and more loved.
Although, I'd have to say, in reality, most fathers and most wives would ultimately be happier with an Alfred then with a Tristan. I think only because Susannah is herself scarred as a human being that she ultimately lets her attraction to Tristan kill her. Most women of her day and age would have happily dumped Tristan for Alfred.
Excellent opinion. I can understand everything you said and find it believable that women probably would choose Alfred if the date is around the early 1900's. While I find some of the reasoning by others to be suspect based on my understanding of the movie, you have just provided a solid case for Alfred.
As a man I could imagine myself enjoying life much better in the style Tristan lives than the way Alfred lives if we go back in time and I am forced to choose one of their two lifestyles. Having said that I would rather be Alfred if I am going to have all of the bad things that happened to Tristan happen to me.
Here's another thing to consider though- Tristan represents living life freely, and not according to the conventions of society. And though most of us have accepted life's rules and conventions to varying degrees, there is a part of us that yearns to break the rules and be free again. Even more than his natural good looks, this is why people are attracted to Tristan- he represents that party of themselves that yearns to break free.
But ultimately, the rules and conventions of society are stronger, most of us end up caving into them one way or another, and we realize we'd much rather have a stable home and job then to have 'excitement and adventure' that might lead to us sleeping on the ground and wrestling with grizzly bears.
I agree.
This movie does a really good job in using symbolism to make it more than just a Western soap opera. I have been guilty of fighting the system in my earlier life for better and worse. That is one of the reasons I like this movie so much.
The Colonel in a sense was also a person who didn't follow the system. He wanted to help the Indians and failed on his attempts. He then chose the ranch rather than the city. He hated the political influences that affected Alfred. That is why he favored Tristan regardless of the failures.
Yes actually, I would've chosen Alfred too. Tristan -dangerous and hot as hell as he was- was just to much of a drama queen for me. I would've had a fling with Tristan, but still chosen Alfred.
<i>The snozzberries taste like snozzberries<i>
I totally agree! At least she had Brad/Tristan at his hottest! Alfred made a great husband. Too bad they didn't adopt a child. I think it would have made her happier, as she really wanted to have kids.
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