Mind you, I'm not defending Waters, his Catwoman script is atrocious and he has made some of the worst films ever and is also an idiot but this is not one of them. What's wrong with it? Every character has their arc, every plotpoint is resolved. If you want a bad script go see Nolan.
shareThe script in Returns isn't as focused as the one in the first movie. Not that the script from Batman '89 is perfect on its own, but with Returns, there are numerous plot points that go nowhere. Off the top of my head, Penguin's mayoral campaign or Max Shreck's plan to drain Gotham City's electricity. Plus, Penguin must be the most incompetent, ineffectual supervillain if he literally needs at least three different master plans. Also the script is loaded with vulgar, crude dialogue like Penguin saying that he was his parents' number one, yet they treated him like their NUMBER TWO. Or Penguin when first laying eyes to Catwoman "Just the PUSSY that I've been looking for." And who can forget Shreck talking to Penguin about getting poon-tang.
shareHis second master plan of ridding the children of Gotham was foiled in about 10 minutes and yes, didn't really go anywhere. Aside from the Penguin mentioning his plan after crashing the ball, you could delete his entire second master plan without it having any effect on the film.
Apart from that I can't agree the rest of the plot points go nowhere. Shreck's plan to drain Gotham's power was more of a backstory to demonstrate his corruption; his motivation for pushing Selina through a window; and one of his motivations for bankrolling the Penguin's mayoral campaign. Having the Penguin as Mayor would allow Shreck to build his plant. The resolution to Shreck's aforementioned schemes is Batman telling him that he's going to jail during the climax.
Penguin's mayoral master plan is resolved by the recording of him being played during his speech, leading him to be pelted with vegetables by the crowd and having to retreat back into the sewers to plot his revenge upon Gotham. I find that to be a perfectly reasonable story turn.
Personally, I found the dialogue witty and great, and miles ahead of the atrocities heard in the Joel Schumacher films. Penguin's "Just the pussy I've been looking for" expresses his gutter sleaze under the veneer of a molecule and tie.
This is a very political movie. it throws out camp in favor of mature themes. Shrek wants control of a mayor, he abuses women to get whatever he wants how he wants. He even backs a shady 'newbie' in his ruthless climb to the top.
shareAnd other mature themes like solemn funeral rites performed by penguins and then an army of rocket penguins that Penguin just ... had. And the brilliant Batman decisions throughout.
shareWe only see Shreck abuse one woman, don't we?
Unless you think he killed his wife, which I must admit is a fascinating and entirely credible possibility (personally, I think he killed her to get hold of her money).
I would not have put it past him. Before Selina becomes Catwoman---he says she was not 'housebroken yet'.
Only Max seems comfortable (too comfortable?) referring to women as something to be trained. Nobody else in the meeting is laughing at that joke.
And when he says 'your mother' to Chip, he is not sad/bitter, he is fond that she is gone.
Although he can't be too upbeat in front of Chip. Chip may be a jerk, but I assume he loved his mother.
As for the meeting, I got the impression that most of the attendees, including the Mayor, were chauvinists. They all laughed at Max's 'joke' about "on the plus side, Ms Kyle makes one hell of a coffee."
Thankfully Bruce is not like that. he empathizes with her at the dance. he doesn't want to turn her in when she is going to kill Max. He instead attempts to talk her out of it, and wants the two of them to be together. He does want max in jail.
In a properly done sequel, she would have been his partner in life and justice. Not a subordinate or assistant. But equal. Oh and she would not make coffee @ Wayne Enterprises.
I prefer her as equal but independent.
As lovely as marriage may be. I do sadly believe that many women are compelled to give-up a part of themselves whenever they enter into such a union with a man.
Not everyone criticizes the script.
Maybe since Nolan's po-faced Batman films some nerds have developed notions of (snigger) sophistication that these movies are supposed to have.
Fixing Batman Returns
https://www.reddit.com/r/fixingmovies/comments/9u4e39/fixing_batman_returns/
First off, I'm replacing Penguin with Killer Croc as the movie's Penguin has more in common with Killer Croc than the comicbooks Penguin. I'm also gonna replace Max Shreck with the Penguin as a well known comicbook character would work better than an original character.share
In the prologue, socialites Oswald and Esther Jones give birth to Waylon. Disgusted by his appearance, Oswald confines Waylon to a cage and ultimately throws him into the sewer, killing Esther when she tries to stop him.
33 years later, millionaire Oswald Cobblepot proposes to build a power plant to supply Gotham with energy, though he is opposed by the mayor. During Cobblepot's speech, Gotham is attacked by what remains of the Joker's gang. Despite Batman's efforts to stop them, Cobblepot is kidnapped and taken to the sewer where he meets Waylon, the new leader of the former Joker gang and now known as Killer Croc. Cobblepot offers to help Croc return to the surface in exchange for helping him become mayor. Croc accepts but warns Cobblepot that he evidence of his corporate crimes if he tries to double cross him.
Meanwhile, Selina Kyle lives with Holly Robinson. Inspired by Batman, she takes the mantle of Catwoman and takes up burglary. There is no plot line on Selina being a secretary or coming back from the dead.
Bruce Wayne struggles with his faith in the people of Gotham when they allowed Oswald Cobblepot to get so much power. He investigates Cobblepot's connection with the Killer Croc gang. During a meeting with Cobblepot, Bruce meets Selina, who is in a disguise to steal from Cobblepot, and the two become attracted to one another.
In order to run for mayor, Cobblepot discredits the current mayor by having Killer Croc wreck havoc on the city. Batman intervenes and meets Catwoman who is trying to sabotage one of Cobblepot's businesses.
Daniel Waters was interviewed on the third episode of Vice TV's Icons Unearthed series on the Batman movies, and he said that Tim Burton brought in Wesley Strick to "punch up" his Batman Returns script. Waters made it known that he wasn't appreciative of Strick putting a bunch of real world pop cultural stuff like Alfred mentioning to Bruce "The Love Connection" or Bruce name dropping Norman Bates and Ted Bundy to Selina Kyle.
https://www.google.com/search?q=wesley+strick+batman+returns+site:www.batman-online.com&sca_esv=4c3180f19713410c&sca_upv=1&sxsrf=ACQVn081zlL-nW1EtOj9IJGg1Kef70m4Fg:1712202591390&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjy4vjZ06eFAxWBkIkEHYwHBqQQrQIoA3oECCQQBA&biw=1600&bih=773&dpr=1
Let's see.
Bruce literally has Bat symbols on his mansion.
Selina keeps making out she's a complete outcast and no man is interested in her BEFORE she goes home and gets a message from her boyfriend on her answering machine that he has other plans.
Shreck pushes Selina out of the window but isn't remotely suspicious that there's been no talk of her dead body over the next couple of days.
Speaking of the next couple of days, just before that, she says he has a meeting with Bruce the next morning but a couple of days pass before that meeting.
Bruce tells Alfred that he hopes Penguin finds his parents then literally in the next scene he's suspicious of him.
Penguin becoming Mayor is lifted directly from the 60's show.
Penguin's plan to fool Gotham literally depends on no one pursuing his man and everyone standing around in silence like robots so they can hear Penguin "confront" him in the sewers. Speaking of which, the mother didn't seem bothered about her baby been taken either.
Batman stands around like an idiot while the Ice Princess falls to her death.
When she does fall to her death, the crowd at the bottom blame him even though it would be impossible to see him.
The police pursue Batman for her death and then forget about him for the rest of the film.
Everyone has vegetables handy to throw at Penguin like it's a Naked Gun film.
The police pursue Penguin and then forget about him for the rest of the film even though they know the sewer leads to the zoo.
Batman couldn't have possibly known about Penguin's plans with the penguin army because he'd literally just come up with it.
Batman tells Shrek he's going to jail but from his perspective Shrek hasn't actually done anything to warrant it so he can't prove a thing. As the film stands, Batman's in more trouble with the cops than Shrek.
Shrek's fried but his eyeballs remain.
Penguin pallbearers. Say no more.
The script is awful.
Bruce literally has Bat symbols on his mansion.
Selina keeps making out she's a complete outcast and no man is interested in her BEFORE she goes home and gets a message from her boyfriend on her answering machine that he has other plans.
Shreck pushes Selina out of the window but isn't remotely suspicious that there's been no talk of her dead body over the next couple of days.
Bruce tells Alfred that he hopes Penguin finds his parents then literally in the next scene he's suspicious of him.
Penguin becoming Mayor is lifted directly from the 60's show.
Penguin's plan to fool Gotham literally depends on no one pursuing his man and everyone standing around in silence like robots so they can hear Penguin "confront" him in the sewers.
Batman stands around like an idiot while the Ice Princess falls to her death.
When she does fall to her death, the crowd at the bottom blame him even though it would be impossible to see him.
Everyone has vegetables handy to throw at Penguin like it's a Naked Gun film.
The police pursue Batman for her death and then forget about him for the rest of the film.
Shrek's fried but his eyeballs remain.
Batman couldn't have possibly known about Penguin's plans with the penguin army because he'd literally just come up with it.
Batman tells Shrek he's going to jail but from his perspective Shrek hasn't actually done anything to warrant it so he can't prove a thing. As the film stands, Batman's in more trouble with the cops than Shrek.
You do realise that scripts are available to read online?
With the exception of max's eyeballs and batman just standing around like a plank while the ice princess falls (he makes an attempt to save her in the script) all of those things are in the script.
It's clear from most of you what wrote you haven't seen the film for a long time. The police were chasing batman for murder and penguin wasn't even blocking batman's access to the ice princess. He was well away. He appears out of the rooftop door with bats that he magically got into an umbrellaπ
You do realise that scripts are available to read online?
With the exception of max's eyeballs and batman just standing around like a plank while the ice princess falls (he makes an attempt to save her in the script) all of those things are in the script.
It's clear from most of you what wrote you haven't seen the film for a long time. The police were chasing batman for murder and penguin wasn't even blocking batman's access to the ice princess.
It's clear that the whole crowd are supposed to believe it after that one guy says it. The Penguin's entire plan was about making it look as though Batman had done it. It's a plot point that's completely dropped hence shitty writing.
share1. Fair enough. Still a terrible aspect of the film either way.
2. She says to the knocked out thug. "That was brief just like all the men in my life. Then again, what men?". Then goes home to a voice message from her boyfriend. Awful writing.
3. She went home the same night but didn't show up to work for a couple of days. Shrek says to Bruce he'd offer him a coffee but his assistant is on vacation. In all that time he hasn't become suspicious that her dead body hasn't been in the news, talked about etc. Again, awful writing.
4. No he was suspicious. He went immediately from A to C.
5. It's a comic book movie made at a time when they were extremely rare so there were plenty of other plot options. Using a plot from the Adam West show was lazy especially when Tim Burton didn't care about previous adaptations.
6. It's in the script.
7. The Penguin was nowhere near Batman in the script or film.
8. I'll let that slide. Badly directed then.
9. In the script it says tomatoes, eggs, and snowballs which is just as bad, maybe even worse. Eggs and tomatoes going full on splat like in a cartoon.
10. Penguin and Catwoman have just spent a full five minutes talking about framing Batman, and then kidnapping the Ice Princess. The guy shouts "Batman did it", no one in the crowd counteracts him to defend him, the police shoot Batman, and then pursue him in their cars in which a lot of them are smashed up and blown up. There's no mention of him being wanted for murder again. It's either a plot hole or an entire plot point was just dropped. Either way, it's awful script writing.
11. Fair enough.
12. Anything to do with the penguins in the film is just terrible. Returns is better than Schumacher's Batman films overall but the penguin army and pallbearers are worse than anything in the Schumacher films.
13. Like I said, Batman's not actually got anything on Shrek though. He can't prove a thing. On the other hand, from what we see in the film, even if we were to pretend the cops no longer want Batman and them pursuing him was just dropped, Catwoman is still a terrorist in the eyes of Gotham so it was weird for him to say he's going to jail.
2. She says to the knocked out thug. "That was brief just like all the men in my life. Then again, what men?". Then goes home to a voice message from her boyfriend. Awful writing.
3. She went home the same night but didn't show up to work for a couple of days. Shrek says to Bruce he'd offer him a coffee but his assistant is on vacation. In all that time he hasn't become suspicious that her dead body hasn't been in the news, talked about etc. Again, awful writing.
7. The Penguin was nowhere near Batman in the script or film.
10. Penguin and Catwoman have just spent a full five minutes talking about framing Batman, and then kidnapping the Ice Princess. The guy shouts "Batman did it", no one in the crowd counteracts him to defend him, the police shoot Batman, and then pursue him in their cars in which a lot of them are smashed up and blown up.
12. Anything to do with the penguins in the film is just terrible. Returns is better than Schumacher's Batman films overall but the penguin army and pallbearers are worse than anything in the Schumacher films.
Like I said, Batman's not actually got anything on Shrek though. He can't prove a thing.
Batman Returns is a very schizophrenic and incoherent movie. And I like to chalk if up to nobody wanting to reign Tim Burton in and tell him to dial back on his indulgences and more ludicrous ideas. It's basically, the ultimate case of a superhero movie that emphasis style over actual substance.
shareI often criticize Batman Returns and far more than I do Batman Forever and Batman and Robin. Why? Because there's some things I really like about Returns. There's a classic Batman film in there somewhere. I just wish Michael Keaton was in it more, the plot more coherent, and the tone more mature. Not darker, more mature. Some people mistake dark for mature but this and Temple Of Doom are perfect examples that they're not. Both have dark moments/themes but both are incredibly juvenile and childish at times too.
One of the best examples of how to do dark and mature is The Empire Strikes Back.
I do not criticise this script.
shareEvery plot point is resolved? The police were chasing Batman for murder at one point.
share