Valeris instead of Saavik


Why was the decision made to replace Saavik with the new character Valeris in The Undiscovered Country? It would have actually been quite logical for Saavik to want to sabotage the human-Klingon peace because of what had happened to David on Genesis (in the book, she and David were lovers, not just colleagues). Was it because they were afraid the fans wouldn't want to see Saavik turned into a bad guy, as it were?

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[deleted]

It's too bad though. It really would have added some depth, from Kirk's line of never forgiving them for the death of his boy (her lover) and then Spock's "mental rape" scene. Her involvement would have really broadened the scope of the situation in ways the Valeris character couldn't. I think it would have been a phenomenal closure.


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It was 9 years later, and you would have expected Saavik to be a higher rank than Lt.

I personally wouldn't have had too much trouble with it. Frankly, I wouldn't have had too much trouble had Chekov or Sulu turned out to be a conspirator.

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Make it Sulu. Just to see if he blames Shatner.

I'm trying to get in the habit of prooofreading.

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He would, but only after Spock mind-raped him.

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In some ways I am glad that Saavik wasn't the traitor, since she was a beloved character by fans. On the other hand, it would have made a lot more sense, because of the Klingons killing David. If the Search for Spock film would have included the subplot from the book that she and David were lovers, which would have been a great motivation for her betraying the alliance as she would have seen it as a pact with the enemy.

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The subject of her and David being lovers was not discussed in the movie at all. I'm of two minds on this. I think that it would have been a great plot twist (especially if she had said she was pregnant, this was an idea discussed on TVH boards). But all in all, I don't think anybody really wanted to see Saavik becoming a bad guy.

Also, revenge is a human emotion - I don't see why she would have this motivation, given the outcome of her being found out and either dying or being charged with guilt when the most logical thing to do would be to raise the child?

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I don't think anybody really wanted to see Saavik becoming a bad guy.

Kirstie Alley Saavik? No. Robin Curtis Saavik? Who cares...

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I really don't know why every decent post on a Trek board has to be subjected to certain users (you know who you are) who only want to make stupid jokes and wisecracks. Anyhow, back on topic for those of us who care to actually discuss the film...

The subject of her and David being lovers was not discussed in the movie at all. I'm of two minds on this. I think that it would have been a great plot twist (especially if she had said she was pregnant, this was an idea discussed on TVH boards). But all in all, I don't think anybody really wanted to see Saavik becoming a bad guy. >>> I agree that what happens in the books is irrelevant. They offer some interesting extraneous material (such as Carol Marcus being injured in an attack by the cloaked Bird of Prey in the Trek VI novel), but nothing that is really relevant to the film's plot or that officially counts.

Saavik was a real dropped ball in the Trek movies. She is a great new addition to the cast in Trek II that I really liked. Initially, she was supposed to be half-Romulan, and a scene was filmed that acknowledges this. But they began messing up even in that film, as the reference is cut yet Saavik is shown to have emotion in the film and act a tad un-Vulcan at times. Her struggle with being a mixed race would have added weight to her relationship with Spock. It was a mistake to make her totally Vulcan when Robin Curtis took the role over in part III, where they could easily have expanded on her Romulan heritage and thus explained why she seems to evoke a tad bit of emotion in Trek II.

The writers failed miserably at using Saavik correctly. It would have been awesome to use her in Trek VI as a conspirator, though, had these earlier themes been developed rather than abandoned. I am all for using a character that we came to like being revealed as a conspirator. I mean, really, I don't view Valeris as a villain so much as simply having come to an incorrect conclusion based on flawed logic, so I wouldn't consider Saavik a villain either had she been used. saavik would have added great weight to the revelation of the traitor, and it would have made Spock's anger at her more understandable. Try as they may, it is hard to buy into Spock and Valeris as she has zero past with Spock. Again, try as they may to shoehorn it in to the film.

Also, revenge is a human emotion - I don't see why she would have this motivation, given the outcome of her being found out and either dying or being charged with guilt when the most logical thing to do would be to raise the child? >>> As I said, her Romulan heritage could have explained that had they not abandoned the idea. I do wish that some effort would have gone into planning out how to use these characters.

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Whose idea was it for the word "Lisp" to have an "S" in it?

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It could also be pointed out that full-blooded Vulcans are not above using murder as a means to get what they desire (T'Pring - Amok Time).

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I don't think anybody really wanted to see Saavik becoming a bad guy.
I wouldn't "want" to see Spock betrayed by his protege, but it would make for GREAT storytelling...to show how each of them would apply logic and come to a completely different conclusion.

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Actually, Valeris was also Spock's protege. I agree with the poster who wished they kept Saavik's Romulan heritage. It allowed Kirstie Alley to make her Saavik into a much more interesting (and likeable) character than the totally logical Robin Curtis Saavik.

Having Saavik be the conspirator would also have been a bigger shock to the audience. Imagine if it turned out to be Chekov or Uhura? There would have been rioting in the streets.

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Actually, Valeris was also Spock's protege.
Well yeah...because the character was originally written as Saavik. They just changed the name, cast a new actress, and kept everything else the same. So basically what we get IS Saavik, just without the historical baggage...which makes it much less powerful and shocking when she betrays him. That's why it's not as affective as a storytelling device. Technically, the same thing happened, but it would have had more meaning to the audience if it were Saavik.

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Saavik would only have worked with Kirstie Alley in the role, but by then she might not have even fit in Shatner's uniform (I know...I'm being mean again). I think they knew they needed a pretty decent actor for the role, and Robin Curtis was fairly bland as Saavik.

In the end, Valeris isn't as impactful, because we don't know her, and its no shock when she turns out to be the conspirator.

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Introducing Valeris into the story made it really obvious that she was a conspirator. Funny story...my mother has watched some Star Trek through the years, but is by no means an expert on the series, the films, nor the continuity. When we watched Trek VI together many years ago, very early in the film she stated, "she's the one behind this all, isn't she?" I told her to hush and keep watching. You have the ensemble cast, and they aren't about to make one of the main cast a conspirator. Like any old generic mystery series, you already know that one of the guest stars is the bad seed. Since there was a conspirator on board the Enterprise and since Valeris was the only one on the ship that was new, it was obvious.

Saavik would have added a shocking twist to the development. Even if it meant recasting her again, I'd much prefer they have kept the characater as Saavik rather than shoehorning in the character of Valeris to fill the gap. It compromised the plot somewhat to make her a new character all around.

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Whose idea was it for the word "Lisp" to have an "S" in it?

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http://whatculture.com/film/12-least-successful-recastings-of-iconic-f ilm-characters.php/2

It might seem ridiculous to say so now, but Star Trek II: The Wrath of Khan was originally intended to be the last Star Trek film. The critical and commercial failure of Star Trek: The Motion Picture led to the second film being made on a much lower budget, and the fact that Spock was being killed off in its climactic moments put a feeling of finality upon proceedings. But once TWOK became a commercial hit, producer Harve Bennett began planning a further sequel, which subsequently became a loose trilogy with Star Trek IV: The Voyage Home.

Most of the core cast of TWOK returned for Star Trek III: The Search for Spock, with Leonard Nimoy stepping into the director’s chair as well as reprising the title character. But Kirstie Alley, who had played his half-Vulcan counterpart Saavik, did not return. Saavik was Alley’s first big screen role, and due to a legal oversight her contract did not contain any stipulations regarding a sequel. Worrying about being typecast, Alley demanded more money but Bennett refused and replaced her with Robin Curtis for the next two films.

Alley’s performance as Saavik is one of the more under-appreciated aspects of TWOK. It’s a thankless role in some respects, having to play the by-the-book rookie against the experienced crew of the Enterprise, but Alley brought an earnest commitment to the role which made it more than the “tits and ass” performance that the producers wanted. Curtis, by contrast, isn’t particularly charismatic and seems uneasy amongst all the prostethics and silly costumes. While Alley worked hard to make her character rounded, Curtis allows Saavik to become at best an awkward distraction.

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Alley’s performance as Saavik is one of the more under-appreciated aspects of TWOK. It’s a thankless role in some respects, having to play the by-the-book rookie against the experienced crew of the Enterprise, but Alley brought an earnest commitment to the role which made it more than the “tits and ass” performance that the producers wanted. Curtis, by contrast, isn’t particularly charismatic and seems uneasy amongst all the prostethics and silly costumes. While Alley worked hard to make her character rounded, Curtis allows Saavik to become at best an awkward distraction.


I completely disagree with what this said about the contrasts between Alley and Curtis. I prefer Curtis to Alley's rather bland portrayal. I find Curtis far more charismatic than Alley. To say she was uneasy amongst all the prosthetics and silly costumes is saying she's not a good actress, which is something she has over Alley in spades. I felt she added more depth and in the most critical scene where David is killed, I found her delivery of the line, "Captain. David is dead," to be far more than Alley could ever have done. Given Alley's devolution as an actress I don't see how she could have carried the same gravitas as Saavik that Curtis did. As recasts go, it's as different as Don Cheadle replacing Terrance Howard as Rhodey in the Marvel films.

Sometimes my ruminations are too confusing for someone not inside my head. -Anon

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Given that Valeris friggen smirks & smiles whenever Spock comes up w/ another 'non-truth' to explain why they're doing umder-the-table things (i.e Valeris: A lie?; Spock: An 'error'), its almost as if Valeris is yet another half-Romulan, lol.

Still, I wish they'd kept Saavik in place of Valeris. True after 9 years she would've likely had a higher rank, but also higher responsibility that would've, presumably, placed her in line to be privee to info regarding the peace conference. Plus her 'betrayal' could've been seen as both a conceit to her Romulan heritage's violent tradition, and possibly justified via her application of Vulcan logic.

Still, there's "story telling" and then there's "sappy tv writing tricks where the bad guys are never part of 'the team' ".

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Lets not also forget that a scene was supposedly deleted from Star Trek 4: The Voyage Home where Saavik reveals to Amanda (Sarek's wife and Spock's mother) that she has Spock's child i.e. she became pregnant due to the Pon-Far the regenerated Spock had while on the planet Genesis, that she helped him through.

Had Saavik been included as she should've i truly wonder if that sequence of events would've been revisited and finally revealed somewhat as a previously undisclosed revelation to stun even Spock and the crew of the Enterprise. and Saavik being more of a Romulan and cunning and crafty enough to bargain for an *escape route* while the crew raced to Camp Khitomer to stop the assassination of the Federation President and the attempted disruption of the peace envoy. By revealing to Spock that they had a child 'continuity-wise' as a another plot twist and shock revelation moreso than just the ongoing 'Conspiracy within the Federation' they were currently dealing with etc. If only Roddenberry hadn't argued and disagreed with Nicholas Meyer so much during during the making of ST:6 the end result would've been and yielded a far greater movie that could've and eventually overshadowed; The Wrath Of Khan even?! Despite saving the Federation once again, Saavik could've remained in the back of their minds as one of their own who chose a different side to be on and her story of taking a different path from her former crewmates and teacher (Spock). It'll be the kind of dilemma director Nicholas Meyer would've possibly and ultimately gone with i reckon.

Then again i also wish if we could all turn the clock's back and tell Kirsty Alley's agent not to be so damn greedy and stupid so as not to give her client very bad advice (asking for more money as a young inexperienced star), that she would've played Saavik in the following Star Trek sequel movies; 3, 4 and 6 respectively. The actual film's continuity within the series of movies themselves could've been far better off, than what we have now even!

ST4


Finally VF5:FShttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p_qjJ6eI1Og&feature=player_embedded

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Can i ask if, Saavik or Valeris was used in the Star Trek comics long after the sixth Trek movie came out?! Has Star Trek EU (Expanded Universe) ever addressed Valeris after her arrest at Camp Khitomer or brought up Saavik again either?

ST4


Finally VF5:FShttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p_qjJ6eI1Og&feature=player_embedded

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For whatever reason they cut the reference to the Romulan half of Saavik's heritage in the film. Books are meaningless to the continuity of a film franchise, particularly when the book isn't the basis of the film but vice versa. The entire audience doesn't bother to read the novelization of the movie.

Was it a mistake for Alley to ask for too much money for ST:III? I don't think not doing it damaged her career. It would have been nice for fans of the franchise if she'd continued in the role but that was her choice to make.

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I agree that other material and even deleted scenes don't ultimately count in continuity, but as I mentioned earlier, there are still lingering issues with Saavik as seen in trek II that support her Romulan heritage as well. They may have deleted the line about her being half-Romulan, but her scenes where she showed emotion are still right there in the film. It was a baffling omission, I think.

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Whose idea was it for the word "Lisp" to have an "S" in it?

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It's not just her actions. It's her appearance! (and I don't just mean the fact that two different actresses portrayed her, or how her hair changes drastically) Alley's Saavik is of fairer complexion than Vulcans up to that point, and her eyebrows were "normal." She had a very "Vulcan" way of expressing the eyebrows, but they were arched. Curtis' Saavik had traditional Vulcan eyebrows, which is actually kind of maddening. And then we get in to the eye color, which goes from light blueish green to brown. Were any Vulcans up to that point depicted with light colored eyes? It's one thing to decide a character trait/subplot that was excised should remain out, but to have such a difference in biology between them always annoyed me. Alley's Saavik was given a specific appearance which, along with her portrayal of emotions through WoK, make it obvious that she, like Spock, is also not full Vulcan whether they say it out loud, or not.

Someone should go teach them how to change the channel.

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It was sufficient for Saavik showing emotion, that she hadn't completely finished all Vulcan training. Vulcans aren't DEVOID of emotion, they simply CONTROL/SUPPRESS IT. At least, once they have finished the Kohlinar (sp?)

Heck, SPOCK showed emotion more than once, in the original series. Because that emotion overcame his training.

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They could have easily come up with some story about something she had done that had gotten her demoted to Lt.

I'm more interested in what made Nimoy make Curtis' Saavik so non-emotional? Did they do an audience survey, does anyone know? I mean, Alley's Saavik was so popular. She literally exploded into the fandom. Why the sudden departure in character trait?

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She no longer had to take Spock's place, so they Nimoy could take her in any direction he wanted. Apparently he thought this would work better.

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I think that Nimoy was trying to make a more serious movie. The response was less than enthusiastic, so they went for a comedy in the next movie, and left Saavik out.

Frankly, I think Kirstie Alley might have been great if used in The Voyage Home.

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But keeping with the Saavik from Trek II would in no way detract from the serious tone of Nimoy's Trek III.

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Whose idea was it for the word "Lisp" to have an "S" in it?

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Also, revenge is a human emotion - I don't see why she would have this motivation, given the outcome of her being found out and either dying or being charged with guilt when the most logical thing to do would be to raise the child?


Saavik is also half Romulan as well as Vulcan, this was seen only in the TV version of Wrath Of Khan but cut in film and DVD versions.

Star Trek 2: The Wrath of Khan Deleted Scenes

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7rKw66EU5Fc&playnext=1&list=PLD 1644E205405E56B

Also Meyer argued with Gene Roddenberry over this, since Meyer created Saavik he knew his own character here better than Roddenberry did. the shock vaule would've worked better with Saavik being a conspirator as well thus spanning out the vast scope of the alliance Starfleet and the Klingons made in secret together to stop the peace efforts between them.

Besides the Klingons and Romulan ambassador, and various members or Starfleet like; Colonel West and Admiral Cartwright none were close on a professional and personal level to the original crew but Saavik. For the conspiracy to hit home harder, one of their own also had to be a traitor somewhat. Which is why Saavik being replaced by Valeris doesn't work and some deeply rooted emotional impact is lost in the conspiracy plot overall in this film!

A random Vulcan protégé to Spock Vs an established one from the previous Trek movies like; 2, 3 and 4? Come on now? Saavik surely wins out over Valeris.

ST4


Finally VF5:FShttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p_qjJ6eI1Og&feature=player_embedded

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Spock: "What could have led you to betray the Federation, Saavik?"

Saavik: "Have you ever tried Klingon ice cream?"


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I think it's in Shatner's Star Trek Movie Memories, but it might be from somewhere else, but I remember reading that Mayer wanted to use Saavik but Roddenberry argued that he couldnt because it would be completly out of character for Saavik to betray the Federation and the crew, Mayer responds by saying something like "How do you know what's out of character for her, she's a character I created!"

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Ooooh My!!

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It was a good time to have Kim Catrall, the hottest Vulcan ever, be in the film.

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I almost wish I had never heard of the possibility that Saavik would have been the traitor. That would have made a much better movie. Why do I care if several dignitaries and military officials I've just become acquainted with turn out to be traitors? And would having Saavik as the traitor have ruined her character if they made sure to fully flesh out her motives?

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I remember being suprised that Admiral Cartwright was a traitor after having scene him Star Trek IV, at least they did try to put some investment into characters that the audience were familiar with.

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As I've said elsewhere, the decision was two-fold.

One, Roddenberry used what little clout he had left with Paramount and got the idea axed.

Two, Kirstie Alley didn't want to do VI and those involved felt Robin Curtis didn't really work in III (hence why her role was minor in IV), and they didn't want to re-cast the part yet again for VI.

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'Two, Kirstie Alley didn't want to do VI and those involved felt Robin Curtis didn't really work in III (hence why her role was minor in IV), and they didn't want to re-cast the part yet again for VI.'

Really? I have watched all the making of documentaries and even on the commentary for search for spock Leonard Nimoy never mementioned being unhappy with Curtis's protrial of Saavik and has even stated that when she got the roll told her he wanted her to make the character hers and not use Alley's version of Saavik as guidence. I always thought she wasn't in part IV because her character wasn't essental to the plot.

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I don't think those involved were unhappy as such as they felt that fans didn't respond to her very well.

I can't remember where I specifically read it - I think it was in Star Trek: Movie Memories and maybe Nick Meyer said it. He said that he was upset at first with Roddenberry but when he realized that they wouldn't get Kirstie Alley and that they wouldn't bring back Robin Curtis, he realized it was better to use a whole new character rather than going with a 3rd actress for the part anyway.

But in fairness, it's been A LONG time since I read about it so maybe I'm mistaken?

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Personally, I found Robin Curtis's portrayal so void of personality that I couldn't have cared less about her tiny part in TVH. KA brouoght a lot of subtle humor that was completely missing in TSFS.

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I think Meyer has often indirectly indicated that he disliked the Curtis version when he's said that if they couldn't get Alley they would try someone new, indicating that he didn't consider bringing back Curtis.

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those involved felt Robin Curtis didn't really work in III (hence why her role was minor in IV), and they didn't want to re-cast the part yet again for VI.

All the behind-the-scene books I've read and none of them ever said anything of the sort. Not saying you're a liar but statements like that kinda cry out for a source to be cited.
I can't remember where I specifically read it



Also, if she was so awful and so unpopular why was she brought back for ST:TNG?

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Curtis was in TNG, not Saavik.

Its her interpretation of the role that bothered me. Nothing against her as an actor.

"Oh no...they sent the wrong Spock!"

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That as well as having Brock Peter's character be the racist baddie. Not something that anyone would expect, and very shocking to see. That was brilliantly done.

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There would have been a lot more emotion attached to her betrayal, and she wouldn't stand out as the obvious saboteur like Valeris did. "Someone's really a baddie. Let's see, hey, there's this new Vulcan character..."

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I must be the only guy who loathed Alley as Saavik and thought Curtis portrayed a simply amazing vulcan.

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Apparently.

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I must be the only guy who loathed Alley as Saavik and thought Curtis portrayed a simply amazing vulcan.


No, you're not the only one who loathed Alley. I was absolutely thrilled when they recast with Curtis. This was just like replacing Terrance Howard with Don Cheadle. What I loved about Curtis as Saavik was how she brought a sense of grace to the part. Alley looked sort of scroungey and all she did throughout the part was have that scowl on her face. Robin Curtis is not only pretty, but she was also a very good actress...something Alley can't do to save her life.

Sometimes my ruminations are too confusing for someone not inside my head. -Anon

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Saavik was supposed to be a cadet, remember. That seems to allow a good deal more flexibility, even for a Vulcan. And it's not as if all Vulcans are required by law to do what Spock and the others mostly seemed to, at least trying to completely bury their emotions. There might be social stigma to not doing so, but they don't seem to be imprisoned or something. It might have been better for some people if Sybok had been, but again, the fact that he wasn't appears to prove the point.

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[deleted]

by OmegaWolf747 » Thu Mar 10 2011 10:05:34
IMDb member since May 2005
Why was the decision made to replace Saavik with the new character Valeris in The Undiscovered Country? It would have actually been quite logical for Saavik to want to sabotage the human-Klingon peace because of what had happened to David on Genesis (in the book, she and David were lovers, not just colleagues). Was it because they were afraid the fans wouldn't want to see Saavik turned into a bad guy, as it were?

Probably because Kristy Alley wanted too much money, so with the change in casting and change in story with her character being "half Romulan", that whole subplot was dropped. She wasn't needed, so they rewrote the story with a new character.

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Alley worried about her weight preventing her from being Saavik? (she wasnt big in 1991 was she??)

It was originally intended for the Vulcan traitor to be Lt. Saavik, but the role was instead assigned to Lt. Valeris as a new character. According to William Shatner's Star Trek Movie Memories, this change was vehemently resisted by Gene Roddenberry, who felt that Saavik was too popular a character to be handled this way. Meyer (thoroughly fed up with the disruptive and incessant interlopings of Roddenberry, ever since he came aboard Star Trek, a decade earlier), could not care less what Roddenberry's thoughts on the matter were, rightfully claiming that the character was his creation, not Roddenberry's, and proceeded as planned. Yet, Meyer wanted only Kirstie Alley to reprise the role, but as she was at the peak of her popularity with Cheers at the time and her asking price was far too high. Only when Alley turned out to be unavailable, was it then decided to change the character, instead of casting yet another actress for the same part. Kim Cattrall initially refused the role as she was under the false impression that she had to portray Saavik, but jumped at the opportunity when she learned that that was not to be the case, as she considered Saavik "just a girl", whereas Valeris was a woman. Ironically, Cattrall had auditioned for the role of Saavik for Star Trek II: The Wrath of Khan. To her big disappointment, Robin Curtis had never been considered to reprise the role of Saavik for this film. (Cinefantastique, Vol 22 #5, p. 31; Star Trek Movie Memories, 1995, pp. 374-375) Other stories say that Kirstie Alley refused Nicholas Meyer's requests that she reprise the role, as she was uncomfortable about her weight, and that she did not want to look overweight onscreen in the form-fitting uniforms.

https://memory-alpha.fandom.com/wiki/Star_Trek_VI:_The_Undiscovered_Country

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