MovieChat Forums > State of Grace (1990) Discussion > Final Shoot-out

Final Shoot-out

posted 19 years ago by girlzwillbegirlz
58 replies | jump to latest

Saw this film for the first time & liked it up UNTIL that final ludicrous shoot-out. OMG you can't be serious. Typical cliched Hollywood shoot-out, where the "hero" manages to land almost every single one of his shots at the mobsters whether he's flying through the air, rolling on the ground etc (wipes out 5 guys including Harris) yet even when they are shooting at him point blank, or as he's flying over the bar, they only manage to shoot him 2 times but shoot up everything else in the bar including the jukebox. Ridiculous. These experienced hardcore killers turn out to have the slowest reflexes & be the worst, most inept shots in the whole friggin mob if not all the East Coast. And to top it off, Ed Harris' character Frankie, the biggest, baddest one of em all, is shown walking towards Penn shooting straight at him point blank (at this point Penn is not shooting back) & with his last 6 shots somehow manages to hit glasses, bottles & lights all around him but hits Penn only once. I don't mind a little artistic license but c'mon people, as Borelli might say "this insults my intelligence".

"The neighborhood is disappearin' in a tide of yuppies & dog s**t" Frankie

[–] 19 years ago

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[–] littlemissromantic 19 years ago

lol! I agree. The film's great, especially Gary Oldman, but suspending disbelief doesn't even work for me when I watch the shoot out scene. I know that a lot of people like the scene and that it's been rated one of the best gangster film sequences or something, but its lack of plausebility baffles me.

Gary Oldman

[–] andytom 19 years ago

i agree,but how do you know that theyre hardcore killers, they never really had any gun fight scenes until this one during the movie so you dont really know if theyre experienced shooters or not

[–] bobgnarly 19 years ago

The best shoot outs in cinematic history have never been plausible. Think all of John Woo's films, like Hard-Boiled, A Better Tomorrow I and II, and The Killer. Think the Matrix, the end of Way of The Gun, the end of Scarface, Léon, and many others.

Crawling, slithering, along the edge of a straight... razor... and surviving.

[–] littlemissromantic 19 years ago

Doing what they do I would assume they'd have a fair bit of shooting experience behind them. I just find it silly that there's several people onto one, and out of those several hardly any shots hit Terry, while he's gunned them all down. I know that this isn't the only movie to have the hero win unrealistically, but this ending seems too over the top for me. I haven't seen any of those films that you've mentioned above, so I can't compare sorry. The ending doesn't ruin the rest of the film for me at all, though.

"You don't own it (love). It owns you"- Jack (Romeo is Bleeding)

[–] mloessel 14 years ago

Please they are indeed on the other side of the law. The fact that they are poor shots is comical. These are hardened criminals but should've spent more time at the firing range.

[–] Sonatine97 19 years ago

The final shootout was farcical to say the least: but this is so typical of Hollywood and its insistence on some kind of impossible but explosive conclusion in order to ramp up the suspense and disbelief.

This may have apeased those who like their films full of action & bullets flying all over the shop sans a realistic script; but for the more discerning viewer we would like to be treated with a bit more respect and intelligence please and not fed with all these stupid shoot-outs crap.

But because of this ending it took the shine off the other 95% of the film which really was a masterpiece in story telling, drama and acting up until the dumb ending.

I had similar feelings with Clint Eastwood's The Unforgiven: again another superbly crafted film up until the final shoot out in the bar: I simply couldn't believe that up to 10 bad guys could even get one bullet on target in spite of the tight confines of the room and the fact they were spread over a wide arc, begging the question how can Eastwood fire off so many successful bullets and cover the same arc span so fast without a single shot fired back in anger? Silly really!

[–] 19 years ago

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[–] michaeljordanfan101 17 years ago

idk best part of the movie

[–] MrBullo 12 years ago

They could have learned from the Mexican drug-war shootout in "No Country For Old Men" where you don't even see the (anti)hero get killed.
That didn't spoil NCFOM's dramatic effect one iota.

[–] dr foo 19 years ago

I could almost agree, except Penn's character was a cop, and cops can spend a lot of time practicing on shooting ranges, and getting taught by experts. Mobsters, not so much, in general. When the s*** starts, practice really does pay off.

[–] tanner3212001 19 years ago

Ok ok I agree but have you ever heard of fate ? Strange stuff does happen. LOL As far as frankies gang being crack shots ? I dont think so ! They are like all loser gang memebers 8th grade dropouts that think they are tough and expert marksmen when all they are is losers strutting around with a gun drunk or on drugs.Just look how pathetic they looked sitting in the bar on St. Patties day.All Burnt and hungover like the Mc`s they are ! LOL If any bunch of guys could miss that many times its this gang.

I've got a job, a secretary, a mother, two ex-wives and several bartenders that depend upon me

[–] eucalyptus9 19 years ago

Sorry, but did you folks actually watch this film? This shoot-out has heaps of misses, and at the end, Penn is riddled with bullets and blood, and it's left indeterminate whether he actually lives or dies after the onslaught. I think it's the best finale to a film I've seen, which is fitting for probably the best film I've ever seen. The only comparable ending I've seen was in Open Range, which I thought was a pretty ordinary film, but had a superb ending.

[–] tanner3212001 19 years ago

Contrary to the other post I said it was possible.

I've got a job, a secretary, a mother, two ex-wives and several bartenders that depend upon me

[–] girlzwillbegirlz 19 years ago

Yeah eucalyptus9, I did watch this film, hence the original message board comment. I watched the finale several times & Penn is shown being shot only 2 times, that's it.
He may be covered w/blood at the end & who knows if he lives or dies but as far as what is actually shown--he sure ain't "riddled w/bullets".

[–] eucalyptus9 19 years ago

Ignatzzz - it's a long while since I watched this movie, but I have the DVD at home, and for sure it's going to get watched again, and then... shot only twice? Jeez,. the guy was "riddled". What do you bet it's more than twice?

[–] Ezekiel_Stone 19 years ago

He was actually shot 3 times, once in the leg, once in the left arm and once in the stomach/side.

[–] indy-39 18 years ago

I really don't get all the criticism about the final scene's being believable... I mean once Terry just keeps coming at Frankie without shooting and Frankie keeps shooting and missing you have to know the scene is not intended to be taken literally. Frankie has been scared out of his mind that SOMETHING is going to screw up his plans since the beginning of the film...first it was Tommy...then his brother... but he has completely missed the real danger even though it's been in plain sight all along. Terry takes him out with ONE SHOT... the final sequence is the only romantized violence in the film and it is juxtaposed aqainst the most romantized of Irish traditions...the St. Patty Day Parade. P.S. Pretty sure Terry dies at the end...he almost has to...besides it's a long fade to black before the credits.

[–] 18 years ago

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[–] Orbtastic 13 years ago

Noonan is the only one who is aiming, the dude with the shotgun is just pointing it forwards. Also don't forget that he's already got his gun out before the first guy to be dropped has even picked his up and he's moving to cover before the first shot is returned. The guy on the stairs is aiming of sorts and hits him because he's stationary and not even looking.

[–] justal67 18 years ago

I don't know whether you will actually see this or not, considering the date of the post, but Penn is hit 3 times. He is hit in the leg, by Richie in the arm (I guess that's what he gets for saying he's retarded), and in the lower left stomach by Ed Harris.
And as for him living or dieing, he lives. Haven't you seen any of his other movies since then????

It is he who believes in himself that believes in others.

[–] jbsouth 18 years ago

Actually I thought Open Range was one of the greatest westerns and then the final shootout blew it.

[–] 18 years ago

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[–] boythatpoursdrinks 18 years ago

It's not that unbelievable:

1. Noonan is a cop trained in firearms and fire-fights. Real life firefights involve lots of misses (I believe the figure I saw for untrained gun users was 70% miss rate). Trained users would obviously hit more often...
2. The Irish gangsters ain't trained - and they've been drinking all day. Jackie and Nicholson are the only 2 that you see using guns before the final scene; and by all accounts some of the other gangsters seem inept and/or stupid.
3. Not all gangsters are in the room at once.
4. Noonan gets hit 3 times.
5. Frankie isn't supposed to be a killer either - see the scene where he cuts Terry's throat and says it's Nicholson that normally does people for him.

PS Bad Boys II makes the top 10 shoot-outs but The Matrix scene doesn't??? The one where Neo and Trinity set off the metal detectors in the lobby and then the whole room gets chewed up?
Come on mate!

[–] eucalyptus9 18 years ago

Actually I thought Open Range was one of the worst westerns ever and then it was redeemed by a great final shoot-out.

[–] bafflewit 18 years ago

One should bear in mind that Noonan was a police officer, with weapons training, while the other guys were not. Additionally, the criminals had been drinking all day, as it was St. Patrick's Day. While the scene is still implausible, there are a number of mitigating factors involved, chief among them being this is Hollywood, home of the disconnect between fact and fiction.

[–] 18 years ago

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[–] jon-giddy 17 years ago

it was a brilliant ending and beliveble because as people have said they r gangsters who think they can shoot and they have had a few beers and penns a cop but the main reason for me is because in the film someone, i forget who it is takes the mick out of frankie for being a rubbish shot.

[–] Lisbon285 17 years ago

I agree, loved the film but the ending really let it down. Its like the writer didnt know how to end it so he thought *beep* it' lets just have a big shoot out. Does anyone know if Terry even survived the shoot out. I was annoyed when the screen went black and the credits began to roll, i thought is this it but it was still a very very good film, Penn and Oldman were awsome as usual.

[–] tanner3212001 17 years ago

Hi ok Mr. Writer tell us how you would write the ending ??? :) What other way could it end ? Besides Terry going to his bosses and having the Flanagan gang arrested ? LOL Yeah that would be an exciting ending. LOL As far as the ending it isnt to hard to figure out Terry survived he didnt have any life threatening wounds and he was alive in the last scene. If the writer wanted him to die it wouldnt have ended with Terry still alive.

I've got a job, a secretary, a mother, two ex-wives and several bartenders that depend upon me

[–] 17 years ago

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[–] patricialeat 17 years ago

I just watched it again...I won't tell you how many time it's been: ) After reading these posts I watched and counted the exact number of hits "Noonan" took in the final scenes, and then I realized - he's probaly wearing KEVLAR! Sure, hits to the arms and legs are devasting, even deadly if an artery is hit, but it does look like he is repelling buttets because maybe his IS. He walked into that scene knowing exactly what was going to go down...my thoughts, anyway.

[–] mudak24 18 years ago

Not entirely convinced it's contrived... perhaps a Hollywood ending (or is it?), but not entriely implausible...

"These experienced hardcore killers turn out to have the slowest reflexes & be the worst, most inept shots in the whole friggin mob if not all the East Coast."

Difference between WHACKING a guy, and steeling one's nerves enough in a shoot out to get off a well-placed shot. Besides, Noonan was probably the last guy they expected to walk in on that day, at that very time, especially after tipping his hat at Jackie's funeral. Certainly caught them by surprise.

"they only manage to shoot him 2 times..."

I agree with a previous poster - I counted at least three..

"Frankie, the biggest, baddest one of em all, is shown walking towards Penn shooting straight at him point blank..."

If I remember correctly, Noonan was around the corner of the bar, against the jukebox, reloading, as Frankie entered the room, firing...

The scenario itself... Perhaps something to do, literally and figuratively, with being "in a state of grace"? In other words, a "state of sanctification by God; the state of one who under such divine influence." If this is the case, how could he miss?

If God be for us, then who can be against us?

[–] aborted 18 years ago

The ending almost ruins an otherwise great movie.

http://www.dvdaficionado.com/dvds.html?cat=1&id=hopkinator

[–] 18 years ago

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[–] 18 years ago

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[–] hankmcn 17 years ago

Just a bit of nit picking but Frankie stops firing when he runs out of ammo and the slide on his semi-auto pistol locks in the rear position, standard ops for that type weapon so you can drop the clip and pop in a new one but...when he is shown falling to the floor the slide is in the normal forward firing position as if after taking one in the head he had released the slide, perhaps Frankie had an impulse to make things neat looking, more likely the continuity folks dropped the ball. An enjoyable film about a once wild part of NYC that has just about been gentrified out of existence.

[–] shaolinsoldier99 17 years ago

I was thinking the same thing, the shootout seemed to be referring to a state of grace. Sean Penn looked as though he was protected, just not meant to die. I do feel though, it almost turned into an average hollywood macho man scene, just mainly how he was jumping and dodging. The blood was a little to over emphazized as well. I still feel this deserved a nine, amazing acting, moving score and a well written script.

"Every gun makes its own tune"-The Good,The Bad,and The Ugly

[–] guitarace62 17 years ago

Well the ending told the truth.If you read the book about the westies, in Hell`s Kitchen New York they were all crazy and yes they could not shoot.

[–] Applejackson75 17 years ago

One thing I noticed that no-one is taking into account is that the scene is shot in extremely slow motion. The Westies (though never referred to that in the movie) were all caught off guard drinking in a bar. Noonan walks in ready for a shootout. The element of surprise on top of unbalanced experience in shooting could definitely make this plausible, especially when you think about how fast everything is ACTUALLY taking place.