Racist?


I'm just throwing this out there to see what others opinions are.

All I'm saying is the "subhumans" seemed like a weird mix of the old view of black "savages" and gorillas and seemed to play upon (intentionally or not) the idea that black people are less evolved than white people. Maybe I am too sensitive about this stuff. I loved the movie! Loved it! But that kinda made me uncomfortable.

However, I would be surprised if the same man who directed the satirical "Coonskin" would intentionally make a racist film unless there was some kinda point to it.

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[deleted]

I was actually thinking the same thing. It seemed like the director relied on a traditional "savage" stereotype -- apelike, dark-skinned, grunting etc. -- which can easily be interpreted as racist, esp. since they are called subhumans. I found it problematic but it didn't affect the experience much for me; I still loved the film!

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In lord of the rings the villains are orcs. Racism here too ?
In fire and Ice the villains are a breed of sub-human half beast humanoids. It is not racism it is especism. All humanoïds are not humans. Besides, where did you see the sub-humans are black skinned ? For me they are rather green-skinned, and the hooded hero is dark skinned.
Almost every forum has a racist thread as soon as the hero is white and one of the villains is black, even when twenty of the other villains are white. I don't call this rascism but fascism

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They look brown.

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What's the big deal anyway? It's almost like the anti-racist thought police are out in force..

Lets not forget that black people, brown people, yellow people and red people can be just as racist as white people.

As long as it isn't politicised, I don't really see a problem here. People are people are people. All this second guessing of people's true thoughts and beliefs is a little bit paranoid, if you ask me.



We can't stop here. This is bat country.

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by - bride_of_cthulhu on Mon Feb 4 2008 10:09:42
I was actually thinking the same thing. It seemed like the director relied on a traditional "savage" stereotype -- apelike, dark-skinned, grunting etc. -- which can easily be interpreted as racist, esp. since they are called subhumans. I found it problematic but it didn't affect the experience much for me; I still loved the film!

When I saw it as a kid I simply didn't get the whole racism thing. I mean Nekron's the whitest of everyone in the film, and he thinks he's better than everyone.

The dark-skinned savage, in retrospect (and with a more educated mind), is highly unfortunate. It would have been more thoughtful had they been one of many groups Nekron had conquered and used as minions/soldiers for his own ends. I can almost see a race of "Nekron" like people who are also savages and trying to wreak havoc on the southern folks as a good addition or alternative to what was portrayed.

Upon my initial viewing it simply never occurred to me that there might be a racist agenda operating. Me, I grew up reading books on anthropology and human ancestry, in addition to all the other natural science books I read. And to me racism is a really wacky and outlandish idea. One that feeds on skewed perceptions. We went through all those social movements in the 60s, led by the arts (film makers included), so why would film makers use a tool that is racist to tell a story? Ergo the thought never occurred to me.

So, when I saw the film, I saw the neanderthals as, well, neanderthals, and not really a "different race" as such. That is they weren't animals, but just some people who'd fallen into bad company with Nekron. And I certainly didn't see them as dark-skinned people in the way that term is used in our contemporary modern vernacular. In spite of their lack of social evolution, making them more pliable for Nekron, I didn't even see them as sub-human. I truly didn't.

Now that I'm middle aged, I'm more in tune with sensitivities, and yeah, I can see where someone would point out a racist perspective, but I'm still not sure that it was intended as malicious. Like you said, it was an unfortunate story device. And in that regard, yeah, I can see people calling it racist.

But heck, wasn't Dark Wolf supposed to be of a shade of skin darker than Larn or Teegra's tribes? And wasn't the other evil white person that lesbian witch, who was many shades more pale than the "good guys"?

I don't know, I see the argument's merit, but I still think it's silly. I guess if another film is made some more advanced humans of all shades can be the good guys.

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They're cro-magnon.

At no point did they eat chicken or water melon.

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That is the funnyest non-racist,unintended racist joke - or the most ignorant racist remark i heard this year- yeah the sub-hum's couldnt be black cause they didnt all have basketballs and naturals.Hmmm....what?
IF ANY OF YOU GOT A PROBLEM WITH DARK PEOPLE I FEEL SORRY FOR YOU CAUSE I JUST HELPED TO PUT ONE IN THE WHITE HOUSE.

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IF ANY OF YOU GOT A PROBLEM WITH DARK PEOPLE I FEEL SORRY FOR YOU CAUSE I JUST HELPED TO PUT ONE IN THE WHITE HOUSE.


Feel sorry for all of us, my friend. Feel sorry for all of us.

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They're cro-magnon.

At no point did they eat chicken or water melon.
I laughed so hard man, and you're right.


"I've been living on toxic waste for years, and I'm fine. Just ask my other heads!"

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Yes you are too sensitive.
http://www.cromagnum.net/WEBPAGE/croman.htm
They are depicted as a mesh of cro-magnon and neanderthal man in my opinion. Never did I think there was any racist or racial conotations in the film nor did I draw any comparisons to black people. The fact that you did means your either subconsciously a racist yourself. Or perhaps just an overly apologetic white person, who'd rather lick a boot then get in an argument with a person of colour, fearing you'd be labelled a *!RACIST!*

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No, the movie isn't racist. You're either dumb or purposefully looking for things to be racist.

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I'm not to sure I'm the only one putting emotions before reason on this thread

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I'm Black and I've been a fan of this movie since the 80's. I never really thought of the subhumans as ethnic people - just a less evolved humanoid race. Honestly, the main draw that has kept me coming back to this movie time and again is Darkwolf - the first ethnic fantasy hero I'd ever seen. He clearly isn't white (he's darker than King Jarol's peeps) and ends up killing the palest guy in the movie.

I was a bit bothered by Bakshi in the comentary beacuse he makes a statment about how the subhumans were Frazetta's "Negros" or "Negroids". Its an odd comment and he throws it out like its no big deal. If you look at Frazetta's paintings, he depicts Africans with the same power and dignity that he shows to all his heros and his subhumans are clearly non-human and animalistic - making Bakshi's comment that much weirder.

Bottom line, I don't think the film is trying to be racist but I can see how one could go there.

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Thanks for your comments Walter. I also came across that comment by Bakshi which strengthens the racism argument, but I agree that Bakshi probably never intended it to be racist.

When starting this topic I just wanted to generate a bit of level-headed discussion because it was something that made me a little uncomfortable while watching the films and I was interested to read other people's take on it.

It's interesting that you mention Darkwolf's ethnicity as I was unsure while watching it. His skin tone seems to change pretty drastically from scene to scene (similarly the subhumans change between green and brown) and I was totally unsure what complexion he actually had.

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Actually Darkwolf reminded me of Conan who was not dark but his skin was dark becuase exposed to the sun. Or maybe he reminded me a bit of the native American people. (I do not call them Indians, because they are not from India). The so called subhumans remind me more of Neanderthals or of Ape like creautures from R.E.Howard tales. You can see that some of them have longer hair, which does not remind of Africans. I absolutely did not have the feeling that this film was meant to be racist (nor were REH tales, Conan's best friend from the old pirate times was from Kush (You can call it African))as were many of other of his friends.
Who thinks this is a racist film has probably a complex of being a subhuman which he is not:

as one of German Thrash metal bands sung: "Why is there hate between different races, if we rip their skin they have all the same faces". White, black, Asians colour does not matter we are all humans.

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Honestly, the main draw that has kept me coming back to this movie time and again is Darkwolf - the first ethnic fantasy hero I'd ever seen. He clearly isn't white (he's darker than King Jarol's peeps) and ends up killing the palest guy in the movie.


I love that! Have you ever seen a film called Chasing Amy?

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[deleted]

by - xcrss_my_heartx on Thu Apr 3 2008 11:48:01
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uhh.... sorry to say but black people are less evolved than white people. white people evolved from black people. don't try to say it's wrong because it's not - it's science. i am not racist, i am just stating fact.

and the subhumans or savages are supposed to be shown as lesser evolved beings....like the guy said down there - cro magnum. what do you think came before cro-magnum and what do you think came after? yes, monkeys and africans. so why would they show a lesser evolved being as a white person? it wouldn't make sense and i would say you definately are too sensitive about this. don't put emotions before reason.

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*Snicker* Good science there. Tell ya what. You find me actual legitimate links to any report/study that backs up this tripe you've claimed as fact, and I'll fly/drive out to wherever you are and buy you a drink.

I miss my donkey
"...I swear by my pretty floral bonnet, I *will* end you."

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Good science there. Tell ya what. You find me actual legitimate links to any report/study that backs up this tripe you've claimed as fact, and I'll fly/drive out to wherever you are and buy you a drink.
Dunno whether or not you figured this out yet, but I didn't have to take an anthropology course to know modern humans are descended from Africans. Pretty f-ing basic.


"I've been living on toxic waste for years, and I'm fine. Just ask my other heads!"

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I think this movie's imagery has a negative racial coding (i.e., the people with brown skin are the brainless, monkey-like savages) but I don't know whether that correlates to overt racist attitudes on Bakshi's part.

That happens a lot in US film--the director himself might not be a KKK member or a supporter of segregation, but he propagates a subtler racism by coding his film in such a way that people of color are singled out as evil/savage/stupid/etc.

And, yes, anyone remotely familiar with anthropology or evolutionary theory/biology knows that humans descended from homo-erectus (a monkey that didn't look too different from your average caveman) in the African Savanna about 200,000 years ago. And that there is more genetic variance in a herd of elk than in humans, hence making race a socially constructed category based off arbitrarily chosen phenotypes. (traits--for example, skin color)

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since when was it spelled "cro magnum"?!
the cro magnon people existed in EUROPE, and are more similar to WHITE people than black people.

real subhumans still exist these days though, they're also known as RACISTS

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Yeah dude, the "subhumans" were a bit of a mix between Neanderthals and the savage Picts from R. E. Howard's Hyborian Age stories.
Nothing racist about it, really.

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Anyway, it is a brilliant and underrated movie.

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