Why Wrath of Khan is easily my least favorite Star Trek flick - Star Trek II: The Wrath of Khan (1982) Discussion

[–] [deleted] 5 years ago

The only question I can really refute is the one about Spock wearing the environmental suit. There just wasn't enough time to waste with suiting up. They had to have the warp drive working ASAP or they'd all die. The rest of your arguments are good.

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[–] Wuchak (8831) 5 years ago

That occurred to me, but I was thinking how it's the 23rd century and there would presumably be a quick suit-up precaution available for just such emergencies.

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[–] Kimmie (353) 2 years ago

I thought the film made it clear that suit were not enough to stop the amount of radiation, so quick suits just passes the buck

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[–] [deleted] 5 years ago

Given the alleged advancements of the 23rd century I don't think having an accurate explosion on the bridge as being too far fetched.

But I agree with the planet being missing. Even in today's astronomy we know about all kinds of events because of automated systems that keep their ears open for us. How could they not know about events in space that they've traveled to of such magnitude? But I do have to say that applying our real world technological trends to the future makes for a pretty dull future. It's not going to be spaceships to distant places, discovering new ground by trodding on it with our own two feet. It's going to be distant observations, probes and maybe bothering to actually show up from time to time. I guess that doesn't make for good movies.

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[–] Costumer (1829) 5 years ago

Probably because no one has visited the Ceti Alpha system since Khan and his people were left there. The didn't have any advanced technology to send a message. If the planet explodes and the Federation has technology sophisticated enough to see it, they still wouldn't until the light from Ceti Alpha reaches someplace that is looking in that direction at the right time to see it.

Personally, I doubt the Federation keeps telescopic eyes on every system ever visited.

Now, Chekov should have realized. But it has been years since the events of Space Seed. (We have to assume Chekov was on the Enterprise, though not yet a bridge officer since Khan recognizes him.) But having been years, it might not occur to him to check out the number of planets and their positions. Careless, yes, but also possible.

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[–] [deleted] 5 years ago

Since we're ripping into the science of sci-fi...

Ceti Alpha is so far away but the light from the event hasn't reached us but a starship has returned?

Automated systems means that no one has to be looking at the right place at the right time. We're aware of all kinds of events in the universe with no eyes looking. The advancements we have in automated observation already is amazing. In another 50 years there will be next to nothing happening within a few thousand lightyears of earth that we won't be aware of as it happens. By the time we're doing our own Star Trek? We won't have to go, we'll know.

"But having been years, it might not occur to him to check out the number of planets and their positions. Careless, yes, but also possible."

Humanity was sophisticated enough to notice a small deviance in the orbit of a planet to predict the existence of another yet-observed planet back in the 1840s. In the 1990s we found the first exoplanet by deviations in the timing of ticks from a pulsar that has a rotational period of 0.006219 seconds. I'm pretty sure the instruments of the time (while doing a scientific survey of the area) are going to detect a planet that shifted enough to change its climate significantly.

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[–] Costumer (1829) 5 years ago

Ok, you're probably not getting my point. Ceti Alpha was a charted system. The ship Chekov was on (I don't recall its name at the moment) was looking for suitable planet to test the Genesis device on. That is the only reason it went there. It is implied that it isn't the first system they've looked at, nor was it supposed to be the last.

It is possible that Star Fleet has an automatic watch on every system it has ever charted, all how many thousands of them. The fact remains, unless some FTL phenomena is generated those systems are limited to light speed calculations.

Today, extra-solar planets are detected by various criteria, but not by visual observation of a planet. Occultation, gravitational effects and so forth. But we don't have an eye on every star in the sky, or even a tiny percentage. Its a hit and miss proposition.

Which would effect your mention of the detection of bodies in the 19th century by pertubation of orbits. That is still a light speed observation. How long has it been between Wrath of Khan and the end of the Original Series? Ten years? Fifteen? Lets be generous and say 25. If the observation station is not within 25 light years of Ceti Alpha, no visual observation could reveal the destruction of Ceti Alpha Four. (or was it Five. I don't recall).

From your post. "In another 50 years there will be next to nothing happening within a few thousand lightyears of earth that we won't be aware of as it happens." You are incorrect. IF we can observe all stars within a few thousand light years and can update it quickly, we will no what is happening between 5 and a few thousand years ago as it happened then, not as it is happening now. Speed of Light.

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[–] [deleted] 5 years ago

The Enterprise was there. Chekov was on the Enterprise. Chekov returns years later. If the star fleet is sending spaceships back to conduct a scientific test I'm kinda guessing they know the history and anatomy of the star system that hosts the test planet. I think it is you who's not getting my point.

"IF we can observe all stars within a few thousand light years and can update it quickly, we will no what is happening between 5 and a few thousand years ago as it happened then, not as it is happening now."

In cosmology when we speak of "now" we're speaking from a frame of reference. You're still dodging the FACT that the same person visited the same star systems multiple times so any claims that no one would have known are pretty easily put to bed. If a star ship can get there in that time frame communications (via subspace communication) can also be had. And, yes, I like to think that if star fleet is going to commit to such a high end experiment in a star system the ship sent to survey the system would be fully informed of the history of said system.

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[–] Costumer (1829) 5 years ago

Chekov was there twice. When Khan and his people were let off and when they went to survey it for Genesis. From everything we are told in the movie, no one visited that system in that interval. Therefore, unless there is a visual station within that 25 light years, Star Fleet has no knowledge of the destruction of the planet. The only history Star Fleet would have would be the Enterprise dropped off Khan and his followers there. It is quite likely that entire situation is classified. You wouldn't want people going there. (I certainly would classify it.)

Yes, as I said above, he should have remembered Khan was there, but he didn't. Since it seems he wasn't a bridge officer, he may never have known how many planets were the system. The ship should have noted the system was missing a planet. But if the original "mission" there is classified, then there may not even be a record of the system in the Star Fleet databases other than its designation of Ceti Alpha.

And one covert, classified operation not have awareness of another classified operation is quite believable.

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[–] [deleted] 5 years ago

There is no possible way for a star ship to have left the star system when they originally left Khan there and have another star ship come back years later without finding evidence of the event known to have happened to Ceti Alpha VI. They would have crossed the energy signatures of the event at some point. It is physically impossible for this not to happen. We have probes today that are based on 1960s technology and launched in the 1970s that are still reporting back to earth today that would have detected this kind of event. If we're doing this today a star ship in the future would find this kind of detection trivial.

And we do not need anyone to actively observe the actual star system for evidence of this. Do you really think someone had some kind of scope pointed at GRB 080319B* when we detected it? Yes, while there are active sky surveys that use traditional optical methodologies there are tons of other ways of detecting high energy events today that aren't "pointed" anywhere but still pinpoint the origins of these events with great accuracy. We're talking about modern day techniques that would easily have detected the events described in the movie. A star ship would doubtlessly be actively detecting high energy events of this nature as well.

*Yes, I know that GRB 080319B is a very extraordinary event but even at that it originated from far outside our galaxy. The scale of the event is virtually inconceivable in comparison but we're still talking about technology that would have matured by another 300 years from where we are today.

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[–] Costumer (1829) 5 years ago

ok, I see the problem. You are suffering from the delusion that a ship traveling in Federation space is monitoring every possible energy wave, correlating that information, feeding that into some database and informing the crew. That is simply not going to happen. No one does this now or then. If that were the case, the crew would be overwhelmed.

I know it must be a shock to you, but information acquisition is not total. It is not omniscient. Computers and people do not have instant access to everything.

You have a view of the world that knowledge is perfect, everyone has instant access to every fact, any possible event that might impinge on a mission is known in advance and that no errors are ever made. That is simply naive.

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[–] [deleted] 5 years ago

We most certainly are monitoring this kind of thing today. I see you don't understand modern astronomy. Just like we monitor weather. Or do you think there is someone with binoculars, a rain gage, a thermostat and barometer who's scrawling down every detail and sending it off to be collected and calculated by hand then sent off to a HTML coder to create weather forecasting web sites?

Seriously, go do some reading. That's the reason I pointed out GRB 080319B. No one was looking for it or at it in a fashion that you seem to propose is the only way to know this. We have automated systems that are reporting at all times and when abnormalities arise it's flagged by this automated system it is analyzed by humans to get a better idea of what's happened. And as these automated systems become more sophisticated they're bearing on even heavier loads. In 300 years these observations will be trivial and the correlation of data will be even more universal. I don't know why you don't understand these basic methods.

It's 2019. We have great automated systems that are taking care of these observations. I'm sorry that you haven't taken the time to familiarize yourself with them.

Now excuse me as I go to take a temperature reading in my freezer to make sure it's still cold enough or I'll have to hand crank the compressor... after all, automation is a nice dream but in reality? Yeah...

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[–] Costumer (1829) 5 years ago

this is going no where. You honest think that EVERY object in the sky is under constant observation and that we will see every that happens and no what it is. Sorry, not believable.

You say Chekov's ship had to cross the event horizon of the Ceti Alpha planets destruction and so must of known about it. Of course that means they are evaluating a constant stream of data and feeding it to the crew. I can certainly imagine the bridge with a computer in constant recitation of events, probably several at once, and the crew is going to be able to pick out data.

Tell me, in the constant observation you mention, how is the data evaluated. How fast. Everyone there is instantly told absolutely everything and they keep all that data in their minds?

I'm sorry. I won't be replying again. You have this weird imagine in your minds that humans and their machines are perfect, omniscient with infinite capacity to absorb information.

Wrath of Khan is not perfect. But it is easily the best of the Star Trek films. What few issues it has can be overlooked as the inevitable tiny contradictions that occur in any story, fiction or non-fiction.

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[–] [deleted] 5 years ago

You seriously don't know and I'm glad you won't be replying again. Your ignorance is outstanding even as I've given you examples of exactly what I'm talking about. It's like you're going out of your way to miss the point. What I'm talking about is believable because it's a fact even with current technology.

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[–] Costumer (1829) 5 years ago

I said I wouldn't reply, but please, regale us with exactly what is happening with every single star in the sky. In real time please. And what changes and when.

The fact is it is not happening. We know many things, but not nearly everything. You cannot tell me how many planets are in orbit around every star. You cannot tell me their properties. You cannot KNOW from second to second what is changing.

You are not omniscient. Neither is any human being. Most astronomers are going to realize all the things they do not now and cannot yet determine.

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[–] [deleted] 5 years ago

You are seriously missing the point and now I know you're doing it on purpose. You're moving the goalposts and never addressing the points I make. That makes you a troll.

Most of what you're asking for I never claimed. What I am saying is that an event (do you know what an event is?) would be noted when Ceti Alpha VI blew up. A starship traveling to Ceti Alpha VI would also observe the shockwave (it's not an event horizon, a totally different concept) as part of its regular operations.

People had already been to the system. The Enterprise is on a voyage of exploration and at the very least the orbit of Ceti Alpha V would have been noted and the returning science mission would have noted that the planet is not in the same orbit it was in before. BTW: when Ceti Alpha VI had its event it would have thrown CA-5 farther from the orbit of CA-6. CA-5 would not have taken the orbit of CA-6.

Unless you address what I'm saying point for point then you're just trying to dig your troll hole even deeper. Have a nice day.

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[–] Costumer (1829) 5 years ago

Ok, I don't think I'm moving goal posts, you are. You first claimed that the ship (Reliant, I believe) would have seen the shockwave. (Yes, I misspoke on event horizon.) You then proceeded to go on that the Federation would already know that the planet had exploded. (It was Ceti Alpha 4 that exploded, btw. Khan and his people had been put on Ceti Alpha 5. Which is why Chekov thought they were on Ceti Alpha 4 and why he protested that there was life on Ceti Alpha 5.) You have proceeded to claim that all stars the Federation had visited would be under constant surveillance. (You even implied that is what is happening today, everything automatic).

So, Ceti Alpha 4 exploded 6 months after Khan and his people landed. Khan tells us this. So the shockwave has been expanding in a spherical ball for most of 20 to 25 years. The light portion of that at light speed. The material components at a much slower speed and would likely be pulled back into the gravity well of Ceti Alpha or one of its planets. Even material that wasn't would be in expanding in a gigantic sphere.

Lets assume Reliant (or its computers and sensors) would be paying attention only to Ceti Alpha as it travels there. It is moving at light speed. Reliant is not. It is moving at warp speed. Assuming a likely travel of Warp 4 to Warp 5, that would be 64 to 125 times the speed of light. (That is according to most Star Trek references. I have problems with those numbers, but we'll use them for now.)

Reliant would pass the light shock wave moving at that extreme speed, as it would all other spheres of expanding from the Ceti Alpha system. They would also be seeing expanding light spheres from multiple other systems. Lets restrict that to only those along the line of flight.

Now, Reliant would not have any particular reason to believe that anything like an exploding planet had occurred in the Ceti Alpha system. So they wouldn't be looking for it.

Continued next post.

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[–] Costumer (1829) 5 years ago

So, Reliant's sensors would collect this data point, as well as all the other data points before and after that point. The computers would need to render it and log it and the crew would have to notice it. All for something they are not looking for.

The crew has numerous duties. Reliant is not the size of Enterprise and is unlikely to have a large crew of science officers available. That and all other data points they are recording.

Now, as I have said previously, when they arrived they should have noticed that a planet was missing. But would they have cared. They had a mission, to determine if Ceti Alpha 4 was suitable to the Genesis experiment. They did not know they were landing on Ceti Alpha 5. Chekov didn't remember. What sparked h is memory was Botany Bay.

My main argument with you is you believe that any of these ships have immense resources for scanning and correlating data, that those resources are in constant operation, and that the crew has the time or inclination to pay attention to every bit of data that is collected.

I say that any pseudo-military ship (and despite the various shows claims that Star Fleet isn't military) will be concentrating on their missions. Even realizing that a planet was missing, they would be responsible for completing their mission; evaluation of Ceti Alpha 4.

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[–] [deleted] 5 years ago

"So, Reliant's sensors would collect this data point, as well as all the other data points before and after that point. The computers would need to render it and log it and the crew would have to notice it. All for something they are not looking for. "

A massive energy event from a star system they're going to is kind of a big deal. I'm pretty sure the system would bring it to their attention.

"Now, as I have said previously, when they arrived they should have noticed that a planet was missing. But would they have cared."

Would a crew on a scientific mission of terraforming a planet care that the planet is obviously out of its orbit? Would a crew on a scientific mission find the need to go over even the high level notes on a star system they were going to try an experiment in? Hmmmm... let's see... At that rate I guess those guys don't even make sure their petri dishes are clean.

"My main argument with you is you believe that any of these ships have immense resources for scanning and correlating data, that those resources are in constant operation, and that the crew has the time or inclination to pay attention to every bit of data that is collected."

We have those resources today. Why don't you understand that? Mostly because you're a troll, I'm guessing. Going through the aftershock of this event would also be a pretty big deal. Do you think a ship on the sea would just shrug off a 100' wave that appears out of a calm sea if they knew their port of destination is the origin of the wave? That's what we're talking about here.

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[–] Costumer (1829) 5 years ago

A troll would not be debating you.

Exactly how powerful would the shockwave of an exploding planet be 20 to 25 years after the fact? Amid all the other electromagnetic radiation impinging on it? You say a 100' wave. I would say more like a 2' swell, if that.

They were not terraforming. They were looking for a planet to test the genesis device on. While the end result was supposed to be a habitable planet, the technique is several orders of magnitude beyond standard terraforming. (To pull information from other Star Trek series, even in TNG's time terraforming is a decades long process. Genesis works in a matter of hours.)

Please tell me what resources we have to detect the shockwave of an exploding planet years after the fact and 20 - 25 light years away. And that we would know what it signified.

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[–] Costumer (1829) 5 years ago

Let me add a correction. I just checked. Wrath of Khan occurs 18 years after Space See. So our shockwave has a 17 light year radius.

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[–] [deleted] 5 years ago

We can detect electromagnetic radiation from billions of lightyears away TODAY. I'd like to think they're up to the challenge 300 years from now, not to mention that we're able to detect the ECHO from supernova off of nebula that are hundreds of lightyears from the original blast (https://phys.org/news/2005-12-astronomers-echoes-ancient-supernovae.html).

It's hard to say what a planet (a large classification of objects) would leave behind as a signature but the fact that it was enough to significantly change the orbit of another planet tells you what kind of energy we're dealing with.

And they were terraforming:

terraform
[ˈterəˌfôrm]
VERB
terraforming (present participle)
(especially in science fiction) transform (a planet) so as to resemble the earth, especially so that it can support human life.

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[–] Costumer (1829) 5 years ago

And since the sight is restricting the length of posts I'll add:

Even if it had been detected and a determination made, is it a high priority item that every ship in the Fleet is informed? Is it urgent? Likely it may be on some ship's itinerary to investigate; but not Chekov's. That ship is on a classified mission. The bureaucracy that would be assigning such investigations wouldn't be in the chain of command for classified missions. They would have no idea Chekov's ship was scheduled to go to Ceti Alpha.

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[–] ultravioletx (10237) 5 years ago

By 1982, Star Trek was in a transitional period where they were ditching the silliness and trying to add realism into something that kinda tossed realism out the window 15 years prior.

Compare Wrath of Khan to the original series that had things such as a planet of Greek gods. Explosions on a training simulator aren't so bad any more. Also, keeping tabs on planets wasn't the mission. Exploration was. The "boldly go" mission has severe problems by today's sci-fi standards, but in the 1960s it seemed like a good enough idea.

Chekov thought CA5 was CA6 because CA6's explosion caused CA5 to shift its orbit into CA6's orbital territory. CA6's explosion also caused CA5 to become nearly uninhabitable, similar to CA6. Since there was no record of the explosion, Chekov had every right to believe CA5 was CA6.

Scotty bringing the dead body to the bridge was a stupid way of showing Scotty's grief and disagreement with the whole situation. So I'll give you that one. However, it still pales in comparison to the original series and also some of the stupider emotional moments of the first film. Vger wants to join with the creator! lol, ok movie.

My take on the ear slug leaving Chekov is a bit complicated and convoluted, but I'll try my best. First of all, Khan cared more about getting revenge than the life of the slugs. But what do the slugs care about? Normally, probably not much more than an insect. But when wrapping themselves around the cerebral cortex of a human, they probably obtain a higher understanding of self awareness. When the other guy fought back against the slug, he killed himself along with the slug inside him. Chekov and his slug saw all of this go down. So the slug said f this crap and this Khan guy, I'm outta here. But of course the slug isn't quite brain-capable enough to know it'll probably get phasered once it leaves.

All in all, Wrath of Khan was Star Trek's first big step into realism by taking a silly IP and turning it into a naval battle.

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[–] [deleted] 5 years ago

The body was alive when he brought it to the bridge.

I think the slug thing is more about the medical knowledge and technology being available when Chekov was evacuated. Without immediate treatment Chekov may not have survived.

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[–] ultravioletx (10237) 5 years ago

The body being alive certainly doesn't improve the situation. It was a stupid idea all around. So I have to agree with the OP.

That is true about medical treatment. Its definitely in the realm of possibility that a creature that size crawling out of your ear can be survivable if basic 23rd century medical supplies are available. I was referring more to the creature's decision to exit Chekov's body instead of killing him, but IDK, maybe it tried to do both and fell short because of medicine. I feel like with all the stuff available in the 23rd century, its easy to make characters survive things.

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[–] [deleted] 5 years ago

I'm agreeing too, had he gone where he belong he may have lived.

"I feel like with all the stuff available in the 23rd century, its easy to make characters survive things."

At least if you're not wearing a red shirt it does.

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[–] Wuchak (8831) 5 years ago

The producers already successfully reestablished Star Trek as serious sci-fi three years earlier with the epic The Motion Picture. Besides, it wasn’t like The Original Series was silly in the manner of Lost in Space. In its 79 episodes there were only three comedies, all in the 2nd season. Sure the 3rd season had some crappy segments, largely due to the lower budget and absence of Roddenberry, but it was still dramatic science-fiction as opposed to the space fantasy of the forthcoming Star Wars.

The episode “Who Mourns for Adonais?” actually wasn’t about “a planet of Greek gods.” It revealed that technologically advanced space travelers — but otherwise quite ordinary humanoids — visited Earth in centuries past and were accepted as gods by our primitive ancestors. The problem results when such idolized ordinary people start to believe their own press, as was the case with Apollo in the story. Needless to say, the episode wasn’t as silly as you suggest.

Part of the purpose of exploration is to chronicle details about the areas explored, which would be stored in vessels’ computers for easy access. Some kind of monitoring satellite would’ve naturally been established to record history in each system. So there’s little excuse for Starfleet and Chekov, a trained navigator, not realizing an entire planet was missing in the Ceti Alpha system, not to mention being unaware that the Ceti Alpha system was the system in which Khan & his clan were marooned by his former captain. But your explanation about CA5 was CA6 is good enough to suspend disbelief.

Yes, everyone realizes why the creators included the eye-rolling scene of Scotty and his wounded nephew in the Bridge, but that actually makes it even more insulting to intelligent viewers. Nothing in TMP was even close to this lame.

Nice try with the ear slug issue, seriously.

Actually Star Trek’s first big step into cinematic sci-fi realism was TMP, which I think is vastly superior to TWOK, but to each their own.

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[–] ultravioletx (10237) 5 years ago

I've seen Star Trek TMP many times. It is a surreal take on science fiction. In fact, it qualifies as science fantasy. Its also bad writing since there's no way a Voyager probe could end up anywhere close to a black hole, and there's no way a black hole could send anything across the galaxy. Its just dumb on top of dumb with the writers thinking they did something creative because it included "Voyager." It is nowhere near the naval realness we see with Wrath of Khan, and the reality of two vessels battling it out and the stakes involved. This is the primary reason Wrath of Khan gets so much respect. Wrath of Khan was also the primary ingredient in TNG's and Voyager's military structure. Nicholas Meyer did a wonderful job in nailing what a Starfleet military hierarchy should look like on top of stakes that can exist in the real world. Not some fantasy of a machine magically transported to god knows where and gaining a consciousness that wants to join its creator. Thats just magic masquerading as science.

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[–] Wuchak (8831) 5 years ago

Space fantasy has to do with things like 7' teddy bears and cute lil’ robots. The possible logical holes you point out in TMP reveal that it’s science-FICTION, not science fact (I say “possible” because I’m pretty sure you don’t know as much as you think you do about the nature of black holes, etc.).

TMP is adult-oriented science-fiction and the only installment to possess an undeniable cinematic awe along the lines of “2001: A Space Odyssey.” It has a powerful subplot about Spock’s deliverance from cold logic coinciding with V’ger’s desperate search for meaning, purpose & spirituality. The story really is profound and moving if you stay with it. The creators only used the Voyager space probe because it was relevant at the time, but the themes go way deeper.

If you want to see “dumb on top of dumb,” reread my list of flaws from TWOK in my opening post. Or re-watch that scene with Scotty & his wounded nephew.

"The reality of two vessels battling it out and the stakes involved” was done much earlier and, IMHO, better in “Balance of Terror.” Neither are exactly high concept sci-fi, but they’re serviceable for those that watch Star Trek for neato spacecrafts and superficial space dogfights (don’t get me wrong, they have their place).

I am impressed with the realistic and mature vibe of TWOK; it’s not campy (unlike, say, “The Final Frontier”). This is no doubt one of the main reasons it's regarded so highly amongst many Trek fundamentalists. However, it lacks the epic scope of the first film. And these fundies have to ignore all the glaring issues cited in my opening post.

TMP had more impact on TNG than TWOK and was obviously its blueprint: The title score, the hallways, Sickbay, the vertical matter/antimatter core; Will Riker and Deanna Troi were taken from Will Decker and Ilia, etc.

What you call in TMP “magic masquerading as science” actually reflects reality, my friend. You just missed it.

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[–] kwestmo (4385) 5 years ago

I have asked myself many of those questions, but still love the film.

My major problem is that the genesis device is designed to terra form planets, but it creates a sun-like object underground in Regula and a sun and a planet in the nebula. Still love the film. Mostly because off Ricardo Montauban's performance.

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[–] Wuchak (8831) 5 years ago

I can watch and enjoy all the Star Trek films for one reason or another; TWOK is just my least favorite for the reasons cited.

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[–] Otter (24464) 5 years ago

IMHO it's the most overrated Trek film or episode.

Okay, it's fun, if you don't think about it too hard, but it's overblown camp and not the best sort of camp. I think the older fans tend to overrate it because this fun thing came along after the crushing disappointment of "ST:TMP", and who doesn't enjoy the sight of Montalban's amazing cleavage? But that doesn't make it a great movie, or one that stands up to repeated viewings.

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[–] Wuchak (8831) 5 years ago

I agree TWOK is the most overrated Trek film/episode, but not that TMP was a crushing disappointment, not even remotely. Aside from "The Voyage Home," TMP was the most profitable of all the Star Trek movies featuring the original cast, making four times its expense worldwide; it even set a record of almost $12 million during its opening weekend at the U.S. box office in '79. In fact, it made more at the box office than the acclaimed "Alien" and "Apocalypse Now," both released that year.

Bottom Line: TMP towers alone, utterly unique in the feature film series — a profoundly spiritual triumph.

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[–] Otter (24464) 5 years ago

Funny how all your praise for TMP doesnt even glance on the content of the movie, which is painfully bad!

It made money because people wanted new Trek content very badly, not because it was good. There weren't even fan-fiction books availiable in those days, not commercially. The terrible movie was it, but I will give it credit for making new Trek content posdible. Without TMP, there would have been no other films, no TNG or subsequent series, nothing.

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[–] Wuchak (8831) 5 years ago

Well, this is a thread and I've commented on the content previously.

TMP is the only film in the franchise that possesses cinematic awe along the lines of "2001: A Space Odyssey." It starts spectacularly, is visually attractive, has a magnificent score, takes its subject serious, is adult-oriented, has a powerful subplot about Spock’s deliverance from cold logic coinciding with V’ger’s search for meaning, purpose & spirituality, and the cast, sets and Enterprise all look great, albeit rather colorless. Plus the story really is profound and moving if you allow it to unfold.

It's essentially an amalgam of some of the episodes: It combines the plot of “The Changeling” with the vibe of “The Corbomite Maneuver”: There’s not much action, the Enterprise comes face to face with the unknown — in both cases a gigantic alien vessel — and the crew have to put their heads together to prevail. The way crewman Baily willingly decides to leave the Enterprise and go off with the alien ship brings to mind the way Decker leaves to merge with V’ger. There are also obvious elements of "The Doomsday Machine."

Like “The Corbomite Maneuver” and “Metamorphosis," TMP is a mature, cerebral, sci-fi story with very little action. Most kids and young adults won’t like it or grasp it. Its depth is evidenced by the emotional whollop experienced when Spock grasps Kirk’s hand in Sickbay (truly revealing emotion) or when Spock weeps for V’ger and comments on its personal dilemma, not to mention Decker’s self-sacrificial fusion with the machine so that it may evolve to the next level of awareness.

Although TMP is definitely an “A” level picture as far as epic, awe-inspiring pieces of cinematic art go, I can understand why some some would rate it lower, like yourself. I suggest making the necessary mental adjustments and watching it again. Relax and let the movie give you a good time; put on a pot of coffee (you’re gonna need it — ha, ha!), kick back and relish the movie magic.

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[–] Otter (24464) 5 years ago

You know, I believe you're the first fan I've ever heard genuinely praise the film!

Or at least, the first fan who could spell the hard words like "metamorphosis".

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[–] Wuchak (8831) 5 years ago

I didn’t view TMP until 1996, although I had of course seen clips here or there. My mouth dropped at the enthralling opening sequence with the Klingons investigating the energy cloud, highlighted by Jerry Goldsmith’s superb blaring score.

Then the story ominously switches to Vulcan where Spock undergoes the mystical rite kolinahr, which unexpectedly fails. From here on Spock seems royally pissed off. His utter coldness prompts McCoy to observe: “Spock, you haven’t changed a bit. You’re just as warm and sociable as ever.” The Vulcan responds: “Nor have you, doctor, as your continued predilection for irrelevancy demonstrates.” As you can see, Spock basically treats McCoy as not much more than an irritating gnat. Yet this ties into Spock’s frustrating failure to attain kolinahr and parallels V’ger’s plight.

Kirk and Scotty’s space-jetting around the Enterprise at dock, gazing at the starship in awe, is perhaps overlong, but it helps to establish the serious vibe and wonder-inducing grand scope of the film. You can’t criticize it for being campy, that’s for sure. Enjoy it because you won’t likely see these qualities ever again in the feature film series, at least not on this scale of reverence.

If the viewer is psyched-up for a movie-length version of, say, the suspenseful “The Doomsday Machine,” I can see TMP being disappointing. Although TMP shares similarities with that popular episode, it has more in common with “The Cage,” Roddenberry’s first stab at Star Trek. Like TMP, “The Cage” is a weighty sci-fi drama with very little action. In light of these factors, as long as the viewer makes the necessary psychological adjustments, the flick is extraordinary.

Even the loose simplicity of the “pajamas” make more sense for a healthy and productive crew in the far-flung future than the tight, cumbersome Horatio-Hornblower-in-space uniforms Nicholas Meyer introduced in TWOK.

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[–] Otter (24464) 5 years ago

You know, I tried revisiting TMP many years later, to see if I could learn to love it or at least love parts of it, the way I learned to sort-of love the Star Wars prequels. Well, I couldn't, after viewing it much later, my opinion dropped another ten or twenty notches. It's just a bad film.

But it's nice that somebody somewhere likes it.

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[–] [deleted] 5 years ago

I saw it as a kid and always liked it.
You can tell it has Gene Roddenberry's input more than the sequels.
But I like the first three movies.

Oddly, I think the Voyage Home hasn't aged well.
Humpback whales. "Double dumbass on you." Kirk's awkward flirting with the marine biologist. No James Horner soundtrack.
Paramount kept cutting the budgets of these movies and it shows.
Doing a movie that was set in modern San Francisco must have saved them a bundle on sets and special effects. They even got to reuse footage of the Enterprise blowing up in the previous film. I bet they didn't pay ILM twice for using it again.

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[–] Otter (24464) 5 years ago

I adored "Voyage Home" on first viewing, and on subsequent viewings over the years. Of course it's not as perfect film, but it's such a sweet, funny, likeable film that I forgive it its flaws. I even like the "awkward flirting", because yes, Kirk thinks he's still the stud but she's really much more interested in th he whales than him, which is actually more believable that a romance between those two.

I dont mind if you don't agree on this one. Everyone has their personal favorite films.

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[–] [deleted] 5 years ago

The fact that Star Trek movies even became a thing and revitalized the franchise was a major event for the fans. The show had been cancelled over a decade earlier and there was one movie that was a success, but the studio thought it should have made as much money as Star Wars.
So Wrath of Khan had a smaller budget. One thing the fans definitely wanted was to see their favorite characters again. So even if it was awkward, it was important to get them into as many scenes as possible.
People wanted to see the old gang again.
And the fact that they got to do these movies with really good special effects (for the time) was something.
I think they probably should have stopped around Star Trek IV.
By then the jokes about "cadets" and "trainees" not knowing as much as these guys was wearing pretty thin.

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[–] Wuchak (8831) 5 years ago

By then the jokes about "cadets" and "trainees" not knowing as much as these guys was wearing pretty thin.

Being 300 years in the future it could be argued that people were healthier and so could stay active in their careers longer -- like a few extra decades -- regardless of how aged their bodies looked. This corresponds to Roddenberry's ideal that humankind would naturally improve as a species.

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[–] stevewyzard (1639) 2 years ago

3 years on and this thread still says exactly everything I've been trying to say about the absurdly overrated TWoK for years.

Thanks again Wuchak for saying what needed to be said!

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[–] Wuchak (8831) 2 years ago

Appreciate it, Steve.

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[–] Scape (527) 2 years ago

Most overrated Original Star Trek film has to be “Star Trek IV Voyage Home”.

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