MovieChat Forums > Raging Bull (1980) Discussion > I think the movie lacks subtext.

I think the movie lacks subtext.

posted 12 years ago by AkermanC
22 replies | jump to latest

I just saw this movie yesterday at a local cinema and found it really... normal.
I didn't dislike it but certainly I wouldn't say it's a masterpiece.

I found some things interesting: I liked how he shot some fight scenes, for example the last one with Sugar Ray was really really good. Or some ideas, like the scene that mixes pictures of the fights and super 8mm's of his life. I also disliked certain things that mostly have to do with DeNiro's acting.

Even in most of my favourite films there are something I dislike, it's difficult for yourself to find a perfect movie. But the great problem I find with this is... there is nothing to tell.

And I'm not refering to story or things happening but to what makes a movie complete: a big idea from the director that is behind every plot point, every shot, every line... This film doesn't have it.

I think most people don't care about this, they tell you a story and it's shot... ok, and you like it. Nowadays in filmmaking that happens a lot you necessarily don't have something to tell but the story.
When the story is judgemental, and ends saying what is right and what's not, even if you haven't something to tell, the story does. But if the story is not judgemental and you haven't got anything to tell this is where it all ends up: a beutifully shot film.

Said that, I enjoyed the film, but I don't think is a great film.

[–] Bad_TaZ 12 years ago

I am curious what you didn't like about DeNiro's acting because most people consider it a flawless performance. I do not know what kind of movies you usually like to watch, but I find that Scorsese's films (definitely including this one) hold up better than most upon repeated viewings. There is just a lot more to absorb, and you cannot fully grasp it on the first watch. I think that is probably why he didn't win an Oscar until recently. Nobody realized what they saw right away.

[–] AkermanC 12 years ago

Maybe if I watched it twice I would like it more, but I liked it already... It's just that, assuming that the story is good and it's told in a great way all that I can get from it is a better comprehension of it, subtle details,... but not an idea behind it from the director that trascends the film.
Maybe it's beacause it's not a material that interested Scorsese in the first time but DeNiro's, so he just directed the movie in the best way he could but whithout being part of him.

I usually don't like the way of acting of DeNiro and other actors from his generation, it's a personal taste. They try to be really really natural so they are full of tics... the first scene with his first wife, the one about the stake, he is talking with the mouth full of bread, moving all the time, making such a big effort to be natural... that for me is the most unnatural thing. Just an oppinion.

I have seen Mean Streets by Scorsese and I loved it.

[–] cbartal 12 years ago

I want to go back to your need for a "big idea".

I have little use for movies with "big ideas". I have my own ideas, though they are not "big", and probably not solely my own.

I don't need to be spoon fed big ideas. I'd rather be presented with slices of life and apply them to my own life, and compare it to my own small ideas.

Raging Bull is a masterfully executed movie, based on a real person, with lots of cinematic prowess. It was about a mostly horrible guy with lots and lots of issues. I didn't need to root for him or against him... I just appreciated the way that he was put down on film.

Many will say the film was about redemption, or the search for redemption... or whatever, who knows? It's a classic Scorsese meme I guess. But the film was brilliant aside from any theme or meme.

[–] 12 years ago

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[–] al_moozaayaaf 12 years ago

@Uncle-Murda
Dame ... the was will said

[–] don-lockwood 12 years ago

I don't think a movie with big ideas has to be a lowbrow film or one that spoonfeeds those ideas to you. Mulholland Dr. is a great example of a film that I personally love, that is esoteric but filled with appealing or at least engaging characters, little to no redundancy, and the sense that there are big ideas and themes underneath, even though you almost have to watch the film more than once to come away with a better understanding of the plot and themes.

I think there is a lot to appreciate in Raging Bull and I still rated it a generous 8/10 for the acting and filmmaking alone, so it's not like I'm out to knock it out of the IMDb top 250, if that's even possible. But I definitely agree with those who say it was frustrstingly unengaging and redundant. I can see why the Academy couldn't go for it any more than they did, and I do think it is overrated and more style than substance. Not every movie has to have big ideas or make it clear what it wants you to take away from it, but there was nothing to take away from this movie on a thematic level that you couldn't get from the first 15 minutes. As a biography and an acting and filmmaking showcase, it is exquisite. But I need more redemption or completeness from my films, something to take away from them that justified the viewing.

[–] AkermanC 12 years ago

You totally understood my point.

[–] ridge-m-1 10 years ago

The "Academy" is all about politics. Hollywood is all about making money. "Raging Bull" is art!

[–] miguelreporte 12 years ago

I share the OP's opinion.. The movie is overrated and it drags (specially the scene where LaMotta takes the blond girl (sorry I don't remember her name) to the apartment.

[–] IMDB_Vits 12 years ago

There is no perfect movie. There's nothing wrong with noticing flaws in every movie, as long as you are open to give some movies your best rating.

What you said about the story tends to happen with biopics that span through many years. One could argue that the first wife can be cut out because she dissapears about 15 minutes in. But in movies like this, those events sum up to a whole story. When the movie is over, you don't see JAKE looking back, but we're supposed to do that.

[–] pturman-929-979676 11 years ago

Jake is a guy who is a product of his environment. An environment he is incapable of rising above. The same rage that made him a champion in the ring is what ended up driving loved ones away & destroying his life outside of the ring. They are one and the same. Ultimately, Raging Bull is a study of the role of masculinity in modern society. Modern society is a china closet. And you know what bulls do in china closets. That may not be a big enough idea or enough subtext for you but it is for me.

[–] tugrul-anildi 11 years ago

Yes, but you can almost repeat the same sentences for many films involving Italian-American characters. This is almost a stereotype for Italian culture. I demand a little extra depth and delicacy in a film classified as a masterpiece with emotional overtones not expressible in a three sentence summary (rarity in Hollywood)

De Niro certainly acts very good but can not use facial expressions or small gestures (maybe because of heavy makeup), so we can not understand whether the boxer feels something at all.

I too, think that the ending was a drag trying to tie it up to the opening rehearsal scene.

Yes, the camerawork is very good at times, and we know how much weight De Niro put on for this film.

[–] spookyrat1 11 years ago

" Ultimately, Raging Bull is a study of the role of masculinity in modern society."

And where the females associated with The Raging Bull tended to come off second best.

[–] 11 years ago

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[–] rthomasbarton 11 years ago

What? Lacks subtext? I'm sorry and I'm not trying to be a dick but Raging Bull is the example of what a great movie is. It's perfect in every way. It's not trying to be a Godfather or a Good-fellas. It's just from the genius of how the city's filmed and how it's perfectly cast ensemble. You can smell and taste sweet, blood and the stench of the city; You feel the punches and pain from our protagonist.
It's a thing of beauty and highly recommend a second or 500th viewing as I have.