MovieChat Forums > Rupan sansei: Kariosutoro no shiro (1979) Discussion > This is NOT a Miyazaki film

This is NOT a Miyazaki film

posted 19 years ago by Jerinaf2
41 replies | jump to latest

I am always pissed to find that a lot of people praise this because it's a film directed by Miyazaki. First and foremost, this is a LUPIN film. This is not part of Miyazaki's canon of works. The only reason people are recommending this film is because Miyazaki's work has been getting recognition, thus reaching this caper film. Everybody thinks that just because Miyazaki has directed this film thus makes this a Miyazaki story. This is not so. The only stories Miyazaki wanted to tell demanded high-quality animation and standards, and unforunately, Castle of Cagliostro is lacking what Studio Ghibli has done. The only reason Cagliostro was created was because the company that made the Lupin series demanded another Lupin movie, much in the same way that Pokemon and Yu-Gi-Oh needed movies.

People have been praising this film, because Miyazaki just so happens to take the role of director. Don't be fooled from all this. Castle of Cagliostro is a LUPIN film, not a MIYAZAKI film. Or in other words, this a LUPIN III movie in which Miyazaki happened to take the role of director. A Miyazaki film is when the concept is completely written and fully storyboarded by Miyazaki himself, and that includes Whisper of the Heart. So just think of it this way, if the movie is released by Disney and it has Hayao Miyazaki's and Studio Ghibli's name slapped onto the back context, then it's a Miyazaki film. (Whisper of the Heart is a Miyazaki film)

There is a reason why Manga Entertainment distributed Castle of Cagliostro and not Disney. It's because Tokuma-Shoten did NOT publish the work. Miyazaki's stories demands high-quality animation, and the only way to achieve that was through the funding of Tokuma Shoten. Unfortunately for Castle of Cagliostro, they only made the film for other purposes.

People have been exposed to Hayao Miyazaki so much that they mistake this film to be part of Miyazaki's canon of works. They just don't know how the system works. For those who are thinking of purchasing this film because Hayao Miyazaki's name slapped on the top of the box, just say to yourself that it's NOT released by Disney. Period.

Oh, and also, there is a reason why Amazon.com has released a Miyazaki 6 Pack instead of a 7 Pack.

EDIT: A more updated take on this:
http://imdb.com/name/nm0594503/board/inline/31300796

[–] DarthGeek117 19 years ago

Okay, we get it. How many posts have you made about this?

She doesnt quite chop his head off. She makes a Pez Dispenser out of him-Dwight(Sin City)

[–] myfingerstypeisntitcool 19 years ago

Yeah, this isn't your run of the mill Miyazaki flick, but need we forget that Lupin's greatness is partially due to Miyazaki? Cagliostro aside, the first television series was a work of art that was ALSO directed by Miyazaki (though not completely controlled by him). Sure, they're not 'Studio Ghibli' works but you cannot take the Miyazaki influence out of Lupin. Consider it as you will but this film remains important in Miyazaki's career AND the Lupin III canon.

[–] Jerinaf2 19 years ago

Well, I've never seen ANYTHING from series 1 of LUPIN III. I haven't been around since 1971. And if it was shown at Cartoon Network, then I didn't catch it. However, I do know that Miyazaki (along with Takahata) directed several of the episodes. I think there were only 23 episodes and he directed episodes 7 through the season's conclusion. However, I don't know squat about the plot.

I know I couldn't take out the fact that Miyazaki had PARTICIPATED in LUPIN III. I know that there was some HUMANE aspects in this movie that you couldn't see in every other LUPIN III. And I know that the character designs are somewhat comparable to Miyazaki's later works.

The whole LUPIN III product, from what I know seems to be uneven. If Miyazaki is not involved, it's a totally immature Lupin at work. But when Miyazaki IS involved, we some maturity. To be honest, I find this series to be mess of faults, a loss of motivation for Lupin himself. Miyazaki's interpretations seems to be the most favorable. However, it's NOT Miyazaki's product. To say that LUPIN III is a product of Miyazaki is completely slander.

[–] redkanary 18 years ago

It shows that you haven't seen the original. The first seven episodes of the first Lupin III series from 1971 were directed by Masaaki Osumi and are of a drastically different tone than the Miyazaki/Takahata episodes. Osumi's Lupin is closer to the manga, a morally ambiguous womanizer who isn't nearly as silly or playful as the later incarnations. Miyazaki's actually been criticized for toning down the characters, particularly Fujiko, who is traditionally a far more voluptuous femme fatale. So much for "immature."

As for whether Cagliostro is a Miyazaki or Lupin film, the answer is obvious. It's both.

[–] axis38 17 years ago

The OP appears to be a terribly confused otaku, who's not a fan of the Lupin franchise. He doesn't like it, but does like Miyazaki, and is ergo trying to dissociate it with Miyazaki. Fair enough, he runs into trouble though when he says that this particular movie is not a Miyazaki film. Sorry fella, but he wrote and directed it. It's more a Miyazaki film than Batman Begins is a Chris Nolan film, or Spiderman is a Sam Raimi film. What's more, it's a wonderful film and I'm sure no one but yourself would consider it 'slander' to be associated with this film.

Then, there are also the posters who correctly pointed out that Miyazaki directed a good chunk of first season episodes, which the OP has not seen. He has seen several later films and possibly some episodes of the series, but he's not interested in judging the franchise after seeing them and reading the manga. No, he wants to judge it based on the few crappy films he's seen that have been produced in later years. Be careful folks, by the same logic this guy will also tell you that Indiana Jones is a crappy franchise, because number 4 was poor, or James Bond is a crappy franchise because Die Another Day was poor.

To the OP, you think you're clever defending Miyazaki's honour. You're not, you're just a fool.

[–] Daniel Thomas 19 years ago

Castle of Cagliostro is, in every way, a Miyazaki film. In terms of creative control, he was given the freedom to basically do what he wanted. During the second Lupin TV series, he worked for the animation studio, and also famously directed two episodes, including the series finale, "Aloha, Lupin."

Let us also not forget that Miyazaki was one of the lead animators on the first Lupin TV series, 1971-72. He and Isao Takahata were brought in after migrating from the Toei studio (they followed as part of a group that, for the most part, stayed together for most of their careers). The new series was failing in the ratings, and Miyazaki and Takahata were brought in with explicit instructions to tone down the sex and violence, the hallmark of Lupin's first six episodes. The tone of the show was changed, away from the gritty violence, and towards more comedy. To be fair, there was also a greater depth given to the characters, and the directing (by Takahata) was far more assured and confident. In any case, Lupin III was cancelled after 23 episodes due to low ratings, and steadily built up a following over the years, which led to all the later Lupin success (much like a certain American sci-fi show beloved by nerds).

I should also point out that Yasuo Otsuka was the animation director for Cagliostro, and he was greatly responsible for the visual style of the original Lupin series back in '71. Anyone who likes Japanese anime should already know about Otsuka; he's part of the Gang of Five that practically invented the whole thing.

I know the Lupin characters are more removed from the original Monkey Punch comics in Cagliostro, but they remain true to the vision that Otsuka, Kotabe, Miyazaki, Kondo, Takahata, yadda yadda, created back in the early '70s. And let's also not forget the great debt this movie owes to the 1969 Toei classic Puss in Boots (which will be released in the US this summer, btw).

Hope that helps you out.

[–] jaafar3m 19 years ago

"Anyone who likes Japanese anime should already know about Otsuka; he's part of the Gang of Five that practically invented the whole thing."

Daniel Thomas, may I ask you who are the Gang of Five you're referring to in your post, and what do you mean exactly when you say that they "practically invented the whole thing"?

[–] Akyho 19 years ago

practicly invented anime i think i am slowly peacieng the five people that are the esentualy "fathers" of anime yes there was japanese animation befor astro boy but the anime wasnt all too diffrent from american cartoons un till atro boy came with a depper storyline and each episode followed onto another instead of one epsiode story then end and the next episode had nothing to do with the last.

just because its more mature and not centered around a youth of some sort dosnt mean its not miyazaki film its not a disney studio gibli film BUT IT IS!! Miyyazaki film. i just rewatched it for my tenth time on a few month long speacle celebration of studio ghibli and i am acuatlay just getting aquanted with Miyazaki saw spirited away and caught that feeling iv been waiting years to revisit and seen princess mononoke very good when i found out just 2hours and 40 minutes ago miyazaki is the famous director that cagliostro was an extremly good stepping stone of his career and was animated by studio ghibli i was surpirsed but as i watched i very much felt it was miyazaki that did it.
reading the report of how it was made the orignal script was throwen out since it was that good with everyone agreeing and miyazaki wrote and new one so its a miyazaki film its a studo ghibli film but you problem is it isnt the one branded with the disney approval of the story and idea the storys thats disney love the storys that rake in the cash for disney and give anime more power to get across the globe.

[–] Daniel Thomas 19 years ago

What I was referring to was the 1968 movie "Horus, Prince of the Sun," the revolutionary film that ushered in the age of modern Japanese anime. The "Gang of Five" are the core group at Toei Doga mostly responsible for its making over the span of three years.

Their names: Yasuji Mori, Yasuo Otsuka, Yoichi Kotabe, Hayao Miyazaki, and director Isao Takahata.

Yasuo Otsuka brought a new level of realism with detailed cars, guns, and machinery in Lupin III, and his greatest contribution is his theory of frame rate modulation. Basically, it involves altering the frame rate - the number of drawings used to animate - for dramatic effect, and to impact action. Frame rate is also changed in order to give a sense of scale; a large rock monster is animated with fewer drawings in order to emphasize its size.

This has become one of the defining traits of modern anime, particularly the Studio Ghibli movies. It's like progressive jazz, with chromatic key shifts and tempo changes, and it's very different from American (Disney) animation.

But, anyway, my larger point was that Castle of Cagliostro is in every sense a Miyazaki movie, and there's a whole career before Studio Ghibli. Ghibli was really the continuations of what was achieved in the '60s and '70s.

[–] maakar 19 years ago

Did Disney release Mononoke in america? Hmmmm...that must not be a typical film either.

All of the other Lupin movies (minus a couple) were real stinkers. Miyazaki didn't have anything to do with those, so maybe that's why this one is still good? Miyazaki took part in many projects in which he was not in full artistic control...but where they still good? Of course.

Its a Miyazaki movie with a different plot and in a different sense...remember the aero-copter dealy they rode towards the end? Typical design of Miyazaki movies. Has Lupin encountered average helicopters and airplanes? Yes. Its almost like Lupin fell into Miyazaki's world design. So that's why this movie has a magic unlike anything else.

You need to rethink of how you imagine him and what HIS movies are if you are going to be so narrow-minded. Dumbass.

Anything Miyazaki does is gold.

[–] jeremy-343 19 years ago

I wouldn't quite say that EVERYTHING he did was gold, but nearly everything I've seen of his has been at least good. His second series Lupin eps had some great direction, although that wasn't the case for some of the first series stuff he did.

[–] Jerinaf2 19 years ago

The following is to put an end to this discussion:
The Castle of Cagliostro is a film directed by Hayao Miyazaki. I understand that. However, the character of Castle of Cagliostro are part of a "television series" called LUPIN III, which had multiple directors and screenplay writers. The story and characters of LUPIN III are NOT from Miyazaki himself. (Even the movie's storyline isn't entirely from Miyazaki) In Castle of Cagliostro, Miyazaki had to direct a LUPIN III movie that had to live up to what people saw in the television series. Back in 1979 when Cagliostro was shown in theatres, the audience could care less who the director of the movie was. (Miyazaki was practically unknown at this point) All they knew was that they were going in expecting to see some sort of continuation to the LUPIN III franchise. The same could be said with any other LUPIN III movie. The quality of Cagliostro, however, was INDEED something to write about. In fact, Toshio Suzuki (famed producer of Studio Ghibli) and John Lasseter (famed director of Toy Story 2) got there first start with Miyazaki in this film. However, they all knew what they were watching, which was LUPIN III material. They knew that there was a great director in this film, and would then have to watch what he had in store for the future. In the case of the Nausicaa movie in 1984, people were already familiar with a certain Hayao Miyazaki, because the movie was based on HIS manga. In fact, it was in the Nausicaa manga where Hayao Miyazaki was PROPERLY introduced in Japan. In other words, Japan first recognized Miyazaki as an *important and renowned artist/storyteller* back in 1982 when he published his first volume of Nausicaa; and NOT during his days directing LUPIN III material, which was during the 1970's. As audiences walked in the theatres for Nausicaa, they already knew full well the creator of the movie, the story, and its characters; unlike Castle of Cagliostro, which was merely seen as a LUPIN III movie. Nausicaa was also the first movie from Miyazaki in which he had COMPLETE CONTROL in terms of storytelling, and in which his creativity flowed through every aspect of the film. Since then, he has created movies in his own Studio Ghibli where all the characters and storylines were created by him alone. His creations are NOT based on television series; meaning that it's ONLY in these films where you can see those characters on-screen. In Whisper of the Heart, Miyazaki might not have taken the role of director, but he ALONE wrote the "screenplay" of the film. So EVERYTHING you see in Whisper of the Heart was directly from his source material. Plus, when people went to the theatres for Whisper of the Heart back in 1995, they already knew it was from Miyazaki before hand. (courtesy of nausicaa.net)

Now that we are ahead of time and Miyazaki has reached a new level of popularity, people have mistaken Castle of Cagliostro as a "Miyazaki film." Please note that Cagliostro is just another contribution to the LUPIN III continuum, and does not count as a canonical Miyazaki film.

[–] 19 years ago

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[–] Blunic3 19 years ago

Monkey Punch barely stole Maurcie Leblanc's idea, simply the name. The Lupin III stories created by Monkey Punch are completely different from the Lablanc books. When Lupin the third came out in Japan...it was called LUPIN III, but it was soon changed due to legal matters, and it was then called Rupan Sansei.

[–] MFdeez_the_gypsy_catcher 19 years ago

this is just my opinion, but i saw this movie before i got into miyazaki and such, and i thought it was AMAZING, i slowly developed a grin in the first 5 minutes of the movie and it stayed untill the end, as we all probably did. It may not be a miyazaki movie, but i dont think that their idea of creative freedom for him was a gun to the head. who cares if it wasnt a his brainchild or something, disney movies are all based on some sort of folk tale too.

[–] tenshi_chan 19 years ago

Actually no. It has always been Lupin III. Rupan Sansei is simply Lupin III in Japanese. Rupan being the katakana for 'Lupin' and san=3 and sei=suffix for a family name (equivelent to The Third).

[–] shanabayliss 19 years ago

So are you saying Howl is not one of his movies either? I am sorry this is written, animated,(by 79 anime standards this was a step above) and directed in the Miyazaki way.

[–] eaglesintovultures 18 years ago

I understand what Jerinaf2 is trying to say, is that it wasn't a film written by Hayao Miyazaki, in terms of original characters of who's origins were with Miyazaki. But still, saying this isn't a Miyazaki film is like saying True Romance isn't a Tony Scott film just because Quentin Tarantino wrote the screenplay, or, on an even closer scale, like saying Whispers of the Heart ISN'T a Yoshifumi Kondo film just because Miyazaki wrote the screenplay.
It takes many branches to make a film, and saying that only the writer or only the director or whoever are the singular axis for which the entire movie revolves around is silly.
There were many people with many levels of involvement, and it is as much their film as it is the director's or writer's or anyone else involved. Even more so for Hayao Miyazaki actually, because of the fact that he worked on the majority of the television show, and the fact that the film had an original screenplay with the Miyazaki touch, so in reality, it's almost as much his as it is Monkey Punch's, who created the Lupin universe.

"He who makes a beast of himself gets rid of the pain of being a man" - Dr. Hunter S. Thompson

[–] leonx-1 19 years ago

Being both a Lupin and Miyazaki film, I think it's strange to say that just because it's a movie based on the work of someone else it wouldn't be a real Miyazaki film. By that logic Howl's moving castle isn't a Miyazaki movie either as it's based on a book. Heck, the majority of movies by Steven Spielberg wouldn't be Speilberg movies. Take Jaws. That was based on a book, but everyone would agree that the movie is a Steven Spielberg movie even though it's likely he didn't have complete creative control. It's the same with Lupin. The Lupin seen in the Castle of Cagliostro is so influenced by Miyazaki, he's nothing like the Lupin created by Monkey Punch. Miyazaki's direction is felt so strongly in Castle of Cagliostro it can't be anything but a Miyazaki movie. Same goes for Howl's moving castle, yes it's based on a book, but it's HIS Howl's moving castle just as Castle of Cagliostro is his Lupin. That Lupin never came back after he stopped directing. Actually, that's be thing to see..a modern Lupin movie by Miyazaki..though I guess anything modern directed by Miyazaki would be a thing to see in the end..:)

[–] leonx-1 19 years ago

And I just remembered this, but Kiki's Delivery Service is based on the work of someone else isn't it ? Heck, I just noticed this: http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0445994/ O_O;

[–] Pear_of_Anguish 19 years ago

Jerinaf, who cares? Just because Miyazaki didn't come up with the story doesn't make it any less a Miyazaki film. As mentioned, both Howl's Moving Castle and Kiki's Delivery Service are adaptations, and they're none the worse for it. Miyazaki's direction is what makes them so good.
You realise most directors don't write the story themselves? They have script writers for that.

And why is a film he wrote but not directed (Whisper of the Heart) more of a Miyazaki film than something he directed but didn't write? Makes no sense.

[–] futureboykonan 19 years ago

Miyazaki did come up with the story to this movie, but some of the characters are not his creation (Lupin, Jigen, Goemon, Zenigata, and Fujiko) while others are (Clarisse, Count Cagliostro, Jodo, Gustav, the gardener, the dog Karl, etc). Miyazaki's characterization of Lupin is way different from Monkey Punch's, and overall, though he did have another scripwriter working with him, the film is Miyazaki's child through and through. Personally, I like it more than Nausicaa (which I adore anyway) and the same as Laputa.

[–] nolmanx13-1 19 years ago

So, Miyazaki directs a movie and it's not his?

Whatever.

This is a brilliant film. And to anyone who is a fan of Hayao Miyazaki, or simply of good filmmaking, should see this movie. Anyone who's truly watched Miyazaki's body of work would recognize the similarities-- the embattled male characters lusting after some sort of nostalgic romance resonate very similar to themes seen throughout Miyazaki's work, especially Porco Rosso.

For my money, this is my favorite Miyazaki film-- I had only seen Mononoke Hime and Totoro before seeing Cagliostro... but now having seen his full body of work, this still stands as my favorite. He has done things more beautiful, more complex, and even things far more worthy of recognition. But as far as nostalgia and a sense of brash daring... you just can't beat this movie.

I don't understand why someone would start a thread discouraging this feature. A film professor of mine (who worked as an assistant producer in Japan) once asked me if I'd ever gotten to see an actual print (filmstock) of Cagliostro, to which I replied no. His response was that it is unlike any film experience you ever get the chance to have-- something to see again and again, and cherish each time. I've still yet to view it on the silver screen, but I know he's right. It has nothing to do with the director's surging popularity-- it has to do with being incredible.

[–] 19 years ago

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[–] Jerinaf2 19 years ago

I have no intention of returning back to this thread. I have made another thread that follows-up on this on-going discussion. In fact, one that is a culmination of EVERYTHING that has been sparked in this thread. If I had the choice to lock this thread, I would do so immediately. Unfortunately, there is no way I can. Continue posting in this thread if you wish, but take note that I will no longer return.

Here is the link to the follow-up:
http://imdb.com/title/tt0079833/board/thread/37031890

[–] davidemartin 19 years ago

Kid, you are in SERIOUS need of de-caf or a new hobby.

[–] 19 years ago

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[–] MFdeez_the_gypsy_catcher 19 years ago

because i wrote an enthusiastic post i need to get a new hobby?
i'll get some decaf if you start drinking sugar free koolaid "kid"

p.s. your a fool for that

[–] 19 years ago

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