MovieChat Forums > Mary Tyler Moore (1970) Discussion > Curiosities and observations on the seri...

Curiosities and observations on the series.

posted 10 years ago by aspergius5
28 replies | jump to latest

Who else like me doesn't think the scenes between Mary Richards and Lou Grant in his office are funny, especially when he bites her head off? Truly a jerk, wasn't he? A reason Mary Tyler Moore's character role really took off is because of the Feminist movement that was going on at that same time, the female sex basically getting its revenge on all that their male counterpart put them through up to that time. Some women wish their counterpart didn't exist, I'm sure. It makes my autistic self feel very guilty about what I was born as, and I really can't relate to the series not being born female.

In an interview with the wives of the Country music group The Statler Brothers that appeared on the back cover of their 1970 album Bed Of Rose's, they were questioned about Women's Lib, one of them had answered that the power males have shouldn't all be taken away from them.

Lastly, why of all places was the series set in Minneapolis, Minnesota? I looked on here at the biographies of the series creators; James L. Brooks and Allan Burns, neither of them were born there. I don't think any website could tell me why this city was chosen for the setting and I don't have the time to look that up.

[–] tmaj48 10 years ago

I liked that Lou Grant was gruff with Mary. He was also tough on his male
subordinates (and sometimes downright mean to Ted), and the fact that he displayed this same attitude with Mary showed that he respected her as an equal of the male
employees. The attitude toward women back then was often more condescending (because the "gals" couldn't hope to be as good as the males, and they would just
leave their jobs soon anyway to get married and pregnant), and many women were treated as overgrown girls and called "honey" and "tootsie" or whatever. Or else
they found themselves the victims of sexual harassment by their bosses, and instead of yelling at her, he might have tried to talk her into performing special
"favors" for him in his office. But Lou was much too decent to ever try something
like that. I'll bet there were a lot of female employees back then who thought
Lou was a real gem of a boss, compared to what they had to deal with from their
real-life bosses.

I'm not crying, you fool, I'm laughing!

Hewwo.

[–] jayhn1111 10 years ago

I couldn't disagree more. They had so much chemistry it was off the charts. in a platonic way I mean. They were complete opposites. The guy obviously loved her and she cared about him. Without those two to bounce off each other, the show would not have been such a success I believe. Maybe the feminist movement played a small role, but everybody loved Mary and the other characters as well.

[–] 10 years ago

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[–] aspergius5 10 years ago

That's right, I think it's more of a sitcom for women.

[–] tmaj48 10 years ago

Well, as a show written largely by women, for women, that's pretty much how it
was intended at the time--an alternative to the female stereotypes usually seen
on TV (women as housewives, tarts, dried-up mannish spinsters, or empty-headed fools). It was a rarity to have such a show back then, and it's still uncommon
today (2 Broke Girls, about two women who are considered strong and confident because they're slutty, is NOT the MTM show of today, no matter what
the network claims).

As a male, wouldn't you relate to Lou Grant, instead of seeing him as a "jerk"?

I'm not crying, you fool, I'm laughing!

Hewwo.

[–] 10 years ago

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[–] tmaj48 10 years ago

Not just for women viewers only, but written from a woman's point of view.

I'm not crying, you fool, I'm laughing!

Hewwo.

[–] 10 years ago

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[–] aspergius5 10 years ago

Bob Newhart, the thinking person's comic.

[–] aspergius5 10 years ago

Yes, and it's no way that I want to act.

[–] 10 years ago

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[–] InherentlyYours 10 years ago

'Well, as a show written largely by women, for women, that's pretty much how it
was intended at the time--an alternative to the female stereotypes usually seen
on TV (women as housewives, tarts, dried-up mannish spinsters, or empty-headed fools). It was a rarity to have such a show back then'
---------------------------------
MTM show was not the first show to depict female non-stereotypes, but people need to bestow the credit on this show for some reason. I wonder: if the MTM show was not a success and ended after one season, would the this show still get that commendation?

Why was the show only for women? Not all men are solely only Starky and Hutch and car-crashes. Isn't that "stereotyping" men?

[–] Doug-Oh 8 years ago

Well, as a show written largely by women, for women,

That's not true.

[–] Countryford 10 years ago

I won't go too much into the relationship between Mary and Lou, because others have already talked about it. The only thing I will say is that I do think they had great chemistry. In one episode Mary mentions that she thinks of "Mr. Grant" as a father.

As far as the "Why of all places was the series set in Minneapolis, Minnesota?" I will tell you what I have heard/read. They had wanted to have the setting in a place that wasn't overused such as New York and Chicago. They also wanted a place that would have all 4 seasons, which would eliminate Los Angeles. As for exactly why they did Minneapolis vs. St. Louis, I'm not quite sure, but there is the reason why it was chosen over those other places. If you read the book "Mary and Lour, Rhoda and Ted" it discuss the creation and duration of the series.

[–] starzsungoddess 9 years ago

They chose Minneapolis for the reason you stated (not been done to death) and because it's a mid-sized TV market, one large enough to be taken seriously but not so large to make it unbelievable that Lou hired a novice as Associate Producer.

[–] In_Correct 9 years ago

I also think the reason why they chose Minneapolis St. Paul is be cause at that time they were doing a Rural Purge and cancelled many TV series that were successful. Ironically, they did not cancel Gunsmoke. Minneapolis St. Paul, with its freezing climate, really feels very isolated and so they chose that to get around the Rural Purge. Also the WJM Evening News Room looks very underfunded which resembles a rural TV station. The front doors were even installed backwards!

I still like that they did Minneapolis St. Paul be cause I am just sick of shows set in NYC.

Regarding the feminism, I didn't think this show had a feminist agenda. It only promoted women getting a job and treated equally. So did Charlie's Angels.

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[–] hifijohn 8 years ago

we are so use to seeing LA or NYC that its funny when another city is used as a location.
poor mike meyers had to spend alot of time explaining why waynes world was set in aurora il.

[–] PrometheusTree64 10 years ago

Boy, the OP's post is weird. How old are you?

Why do people expect an old show or old movie to have a 2014 sensibility? Are you that subjective?

And are you complaining that the show was too feministic or not enough?

Yes, Lou Grant was a sexist jerk to Mary. The show wasn't condoning it, but merely reflecting it. And "feministic" tone of the show was soft-pedaled even by the standards of the time.

Reagardless of the period critics or female writers, Mary Richards never thought of herself as "a feminist" so she had to learn to gradually resent Lou's treatment of her, and that's a valid development. But her main contribution to feminism in the '70s was simply working there at WJM. That was enough.

And I can assure you that men in the '70s enjoyed the MTM Show without any problem. Most people never saw it as a feminist document --- Mary never had a chip on her shoulder until perhaps near the end, and then you couldn't blame her, because she'd grown up.

And Mary's growing up was also well-timed, because she grew up over those 7 years parallel to how TV was growing up simultaneously (TV changed more during the first half of the '70s in terms of content than any other five year period in the medium's history).

Also: why not use Minneapolis? It was a city that hand't been used to death in TV and movies.

--

The most profound of sin is tragedy unremembered.

[–] aspergius5 10 years ago

I'm 43, but still familiar with the series. Just didn't think those scenes of Lou Grant biting Mary's head off were particularly funny. I have sort of developed a respect for the Feminist types out of seeing that. If it had been geared toward a predominantly female audience, I should think there would have been a disclaimer warning at the beginning which told the male viewers to leave the room. At that same time, there was the whole "equal pay for equal work" bit.

[–] PrometheusTree64 10 years ago

The show was reflecting chauvinism deliberately, and given the era in TV at the time, the message was more effective when you saw a non-political woman gradually rising above the muck than to have had her come in, strident and defensive and ready to kiss ass, right away.

--

The most profound of sin is tragedy unremembered.

[–] ElRaisuli 10 years ago

Not to take anything away from its brilliant women writers, but MTM can hardly be described as a show "written largely by women, for women."

Out of 168 episodes, 30 were written exclusively by women. Another 7 were written by a male/female team. The other 131 episodes are credited solely to male writers.

Reading "Mary and Lou and Rhoda and Ted" could certainly give one the impression that the show was "largely written by women," but it wasn't. In fact, the number of episodes written by women diminished as the series went on until, in season 7, no episodes were credited to women writers.

[–] Helena727 10 years ago

A reason Mary Tyler Moore's character role really took off is because of the Feminist movement that was going on at that same time, the female sex basically getting its revenge on all that their male counterpart put them through up to that time. Some women wish their counterpart didn't exist, I'm sure. It makes my autistic self feel very guilty about what I was born as, and I really can't relate to the series not being born female.

First of all, "feminist" starts with a lower-case letter -- it's not a proper noun.

Second, women seeking equal rights CANNOT be described as "getting ... revenge" on anything or anybody. I can't begin to understand why you would characterize a drive for equality in that way.

Third, I don't know and never have known any women who wished that men didn't exist -- and I've lived a long time and I know a lot of women (among them many women who, like myself, are happy to call themselves feminists).

You hold some very peculiar ideas about feminism. Its essence is simply that women and men are equal and that BOTH sexes benefit from the loosening of rigid societal roles.

"All you need to start an asylum is an empty room and the right kind of people."

[–] 10 years ago

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[–] manco82 10 years ago

Actually when you look at what social justice warriors are doing these days, it's all about revenge and hating men. Look at the fake college "rape epidemic" and Rolling Stone article. It's all about demonizing men.

[–] starzsungoddess 9 years ago

I watched a show about the making of the Mary Tyler Moore Show. There were two reasons they gave for choosing Minneapolis as the setting.

First, there were no other shows set here (I live in St. Paul) and the creators were sick of seeing shows set in NYC, LA and Chicago so went with Minneapolis. The second was because the Twin Cities is a large enough TV market for people working in the industry to be taken seriously, but not so large that it would be unbelievable that Lou hired a total novice as an Associate Producer.

Hope that helps!

[–] Blueghost 9 years ago

Settings are chosen almost at random for a show. I think San Francisco, one of three major hubs where I live, has been chosen a half dozen times or more for sit coms. Seattle was chosen for Frasier. Boston for Cheers. Chicago for lots of shows, ditto with New York, and of course LA is chosen quite often because it's easier to shoot there and do exteriors when you need to.

As for Minnesota, well, it's kind of in the heart of the nation, and sort of represented a kind of mainstream America that could represent all cities; from Dallas, to Ft. Lauderdale, to Portland, to LA to wherever. And given the kind of character Mary Richards was, it was probably deliberately chosen so that the audience across the nation could more easily identify with her.