MovieChat Forums > The Thomas Crown Affair (1968) Discussion > Simply begs the question, who is more im...

Simply begs the question, who is more immoral?


It ain't hard to figure out....McQueen if existentially dissatisfied still knows who he is and whose side he is on the whole time....namely, his own. More than you can say for the Dunaway character. He also has the nobility to offer her a choice at the end,to betray or not to betray,and without appearing to even judge her harshly either way. Thus neatly throwing into relief her utter lack of any morals whatsoever....and, realizing this, THAT is why she cries at the end. Realizing that She is just an alley cat; HE is Steve McQueen.

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I couldn't have said it better myself, danielj. Good, simple post.

Of course, you could also say that this was a zero sum game they were playing: each wanted to have his/her cake and eat it too (i.e., get laid AND get away with their own plan). McQueen simply beat her to the punch.


"Sorry. I wasn't listening, or thinking, whichever one applies."

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Kindly stop feeding the ignorance that pervades America, DanielJ_Old999:

________ To "beg the question" means to commit the logical fallacy of assuming the truth of that which one intends or pretends to prove. Begging the question is a type of circular (and hence false) logic. An example of begging the question might be the statement, "I know that God exists because the Bible says so."

________ To "beg the question" does not mean to raise a question, or to demand the answer to a question, or to call into question, or anything even remotely related. That so many of the popular and prominent voices in America misuse the expression (typically with a tone of authority for the sake of emphasis or entertainment) does not change the fact that it offends the ear of cultivated speakers of English as much as such equally popular instances of ignorance as "between she and I."

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I think that Dunnaway's character absolutely knew whose side she was on (the law) every bit as much as Steve McQueen did.

McQueen's character may have been the one in the least emotional control durring the course of the relationship, as the whole relationship was, from Dunnaway's point of view, a plot from the very beginning. McQueen's character seemed to fall in love more so than Dunnaway, but McQueen was trying to be seductive as well, though not for the same reason.

Dunnaway tried to seduce McQueen because she knew she was hot and felt like she could get McQueen to fall for her and fall for her plot...

McQueen tried to seduce Dunnaway just to see if he could do it and bust up her plot, as a way of challenging himself.

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McQueen was in control of the situation the whole time. She was out of her league.

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I think they fell in love with each other but I think McQueen's Crown put the onus on Faye Dunaway to commit to him, and she chose to commit to her job instead, and she may have done that only because she didn't trust that McQueen really loved her ("Don't test me like that, not if you love me") and not because she didn't love him...

What a great movie! I really like the way it's not quite clear how each character was feeling at the end of the movie... So naturally different people who watch it may have differing opinions.

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SPOILERS@@@

Simply a game, a chess match between two minds. Crown came out on top because he knew the true nature of Vickki and how she would act in the end. That true nature is that she would take more pleasure/statisfactioon in CATCHING him than becoming his partner.

The smile, was because Crown knew he made the right choice. (He could call the driver and ask if there were any police there) Vickki was sobbing not only because she has been bested by Crown, but also because of chance to become Crown's partner pasted her by.


"This picture of Al Dutcher bothers me."

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~ SPOILER ~

Tricks,

I think it's possible that Dunaway betrayed McQueen at the end not because she took more pleasure in catching him than becoming his partner.... but rather because she felt that McQueen, by testing her hard with the second heist, showed that he was emotionally detached from her and that he didn't love her "Don't test me like that, not if you love me."

Seeing the movie more than once, Dunaway's actions as she's waiting for Thomas Crown to pick up the money (she looks quite uncomfortable) shows me that she had mixed emotions, and that she loved him more than I thought the first time seeing the movie...

Just a thought... there are a lot of possiblities for the ending of this film... which is part of what makes it such a great movie to me.

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Women test men all the time, it was nice to see the reverse for a change.

"This picture of Al Dutcher bothers me."

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^ That's a good signature - from "Charlie Varrick"

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well done.


"This picture of Al Dutcher bothers me."

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They were just as bad as each other - as Norman Jewison said in the commentary of the DVD, he summed up the film as "A Love Story of Two Sh*ts" !

Great movie

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except that McQueen was a *beep* with Zen...and more style
"whatever you do, don't wobble!" - Ummon, 10th century Master

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Seeing the movie more than once, Dunaway's actions as she's waiting for Thomas Crown to pick up the money (she looks quite uncomfortable) shows me that she had mixed emotions, and that she loved him more than I thought the first time seeing the movie...


I think its fair to say that both Thomas and Vicki ended up more emotionally invested in their relationship than they wanted to. After all, the relationship was only instigated for self-serving reasons.

I'd rather be hated for who I am, than loved for who I am not.

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Faye Dunaway (as in most of her films) comes across as so cold and b*tchy that it's hard to believe she would be sexually/romantically attracted to anyone.

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Kindly stop feeding the ignorance that pervades America, DanielJ_Old999:

________ To "beg the question" means to commit the logical fallacy of assuming the truth of that which one intends or pretends to prove. Begging the question is a type of circular (and hence false) logic. An example of begging the question might be the statement, "I know that God exists because the Bible says so."

________ To "beg the question" does not mean to raise a question, or to demand the answer to a question, or to call into question, or anything even remotely related. That so many of the popular and prominent voices in America misuse the expression (typically with a tone of authority for the sake of emphasis or entertainment) does not change the fact that it offends the ear of cultivated speakers of English as much as such equally popular instances of ignorance as "between she and I."

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Kindly stop feeding the ignorance that pervades America, DanielJ_Old999:



What are you trying to say and Jill-266..... Did you cut and paste this post from a dictionary or what?

Anyone can do that. Who is the most immoral of the two? I say it was Fay D.

She told Paul Burke not to question her morals when it came to getting the culprit.

With that notion, she was limitless in her way of doing the right thing the wrong way.

She was beautiful, and smart and McQueen was gorgeous.

She came in from the alley and slept with high society and her clothes proved it.

Tommy Crown already had style. She had to earn it.

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Okay, now two posts with the same rhetoric. I am totally lost was to what you are trying to get across to us.

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Yeah, her character kidnaps a CHILD? Honestly? Wow! They didn't do that in the remake. Yes, her character has ZERO morals, to put it mildly. This is a pretty sleepy movie, at best. Just watching two objectionable people playing each other. The film score is its only positive attribute. Even Haskell Wexler's cinematography is pretty straight down the middle.

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