In this film, Benjamin stalks Elaine. In real life, if you engaged in the behaviour that Benjamin does, you would end up with a restraining order and/or a stalking charge. Yet in this film, the stalking actually pays off. Elaine abandons her wedding to be with Benjamin. I find it astounding that such a repugnant movie can be considered a classic and the epitome of great filmmaking. I don't get it.
sharebecause people didn't think in terms of "stalking" back then unless they had reason to believe the person meant bodily harm. this was before america became a panicky,over protective day care center obsessed with hot button words like "stalker" or "creepy" and other pseudo phenomenon.
shareJoshua Carpino is right, although nasal hair on fire seems to be so emotional about this, I don't expect them to be influenced by what I'm going to say:
In 1968 this was just thought of as an indication of someone being "love sick" over another person. It is hard to visualize now, but it really wasn't like what we think of as "stalking," in a pathological sense.
I saw it happen numerous times in those days, and it never led to any kind of danger. Sometimes it in fact did lead to the pursued person being convinced to give the pursuer another chance, with good results.
Of course, sometimes the new boyfriend fought the old boyfriend, and got rid of him that way.
But usually the old boyfriend just got tired after while and gave up.
I also saw girls do this, but not as often.
It was not STALKING in terms of the predatory behavior that is meant by that word. No one was threatened by it. No one was harmed. At most it was seen as an annoyance, and people tended to feel sorry for the guy. It was just being temporarily obsessed with love for another person.
Actually, I think a lot of the dangerous, predatory stalking we see now is a result of its being portrayed so much in movies and TV. I saw numerous people act like Benjamin in the 1960's but I never saw any of them try to hurt any one.
'because people didn't think in terms of "stalking" back then unless they had reason to believe the person meant bodily harm. this was before america became a panicky,over protective day care center obsessed with hot button words like "stalker" or "creepy" and other pseudo phenomenon.'
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Exactly.
What a depressing society it's become with the hipster -paranoia/accusations.
"Promote" stalking? Does the poster know what "promote" means?
When I first watched this film, I agreed with you, nasal_hair_on_fire. What kind of girl could ever be okay with a guy who has slept with her mother? The fact that he follows her from home to school, he wait for her outside of classes, and follows her unwanted onto a bus would scare any girl I know today. Frankly, the way he waits for her outside of classes and continues their conversations as if no time has passed at all makes me think he might have some sort of mental disorder (although this is possibly just an interesting filming technique).
I recently watched the film again for a film class and had to re-evaluate my opinion. Ben’s life has thus far been a predictable and scripted plan. He has done everything he was supposed to just as he was supposed to, and in this film we see him finally acting on instinct and whim, without the benefit of a plan. I can’t defend his actions, but I can see where he’s coming from. On the other hand, Elaine has what most women of that time had: a future that basically included marriage, children, and eventually, the exact same life as her mother. Probably, her abandoning of her wedding was an act of youthful desperation. It was her one act of rebellion against social norms.
I think the main reason this film is considered a classic is its relatability. Even today, students follow the same guidelines as Ben. You go to college, you get your degree, and then you take the next steps in your life. Who wouldn’t be overwhelmed at the end of all of that scripted work? And as for Elaine, her life was destined to be just as disappointing as her mother’s life was. Her choice to shake things up and abandon her wedding makes her just as relatable as Ben. Even more relatable, at the very end when they are sitting in the back of the bus, you can practically hear their thoughts: “What now?”, “What have we done?” “What are we going to do about our families?”, “What are people going to think?”. They have just made a monumental choice in their lives and it is that very choice that has scared (especially) Ben from the very beginning.
N.R. (Dayton, OH)
So, Joshua_carpino, you are saying that you have no problem with stalking, and that anybody who does is just being overly sensitive. I find that horrifying. I also believe it is an example of why this movie is so dangerous.
nicole-rhodes, I appreciate your well-considered and friendly response to my post. I can see your point about the film's examination of traditional expectations versus one's own desires. But surely the film could have done this without the portrayal of stalking as a perfectly legitimate and efficacious method of wooing somebody. I have long believed - from well before I made my above post - that the film's criticism of shotgun weddings has merit. The film could have had Benjamin finding out about Elaine's decision to have a shotgun wedding, and then try to track her and the groom down in order to talk them out of making the same mistake Elaine's parents made. But the film doesn't do that. Instead, the film has Benjamin relentlessly stalking Elaine for his own selfish reasons and it actually having the effect of Elaine choosing to be with Benjamin. For this reason the film should not be considered a classic. Nor should it even be considered a good film. It should be condemned for the repugnant film that it is.
Many people hold "Silence of the Lambs" in high regard....does it promote cannibalism? Just because a film shows something that is germaine to its plot doesn't mean that it's promoting it. I don't believe that Mike Nichols' goal was to say to people, "See? This is how you get a girl to marry you".
shareck1-5, I had a debate with a friend about this recently. He used the same argument you just did - what about films that show people committing robberies or murders? My answer to that was that those films - even the crime caper films - portray those actions to be crimes. Yet "The Graduate" does not portray stalking as a crime, or even as the wrong thing to do.
shareI agree, Ben's behavior is more than simply over-the-top. His parents start to realize this as well, such as the scene when he says he is going to propose to Elaine when she doesn't even like him. That's why I thought the film was being tongue-in-cheek about the whole thing and not condoning his actions. You can create a protagonist without aligning with this views. Ben starts out as a relatable character and then spirals out of control by the end. It's entertaining but frightening at the same time. He domineers over Elaine much in the same way Mrs. Robinson tried to control him.
Because I got the same sense when I saw the film, I thought it would be obvious that Benjamin's behavior was nearly criminal, so I was surprised when I didn't see more posts like this on the message board. When I started interpreting the ending, I thought one of the things that made it so bittersweet was that Elaine began to realize that she ran off with someone who is stalkerish and unhealthy for her, even though she managed to escape the commitment of her marriage. I feel like she knew he was dangerous but she did it to rebel and get out of her current situation (the wedding) and will likely try to leave Ben later. However, when I re-watch the ending, they just seem too darn happy for this to be running through her head. That's why you might be right about the filmmakers portraying Ben's actions as "appropriate". I like it a lot more when I think of Ben as an anti-hero though, because it makes him (like Mrs. Robinson) a more interesting character and usurps the romantic film stereotype. But the fact that this is really an ambiguous characterization is pretty disturbing if people think that Ben is a good model for a boyfriend.
Yes, but there is no doubt that many movies glorify criminal behavior and portray them as models to emulate.
At the same time, what The Graduate is trying to show is someone who is completely depressed to the point of suicide at the wreck he's made of his life. It works out in the end, but it is not exactly a glorification of his behavior.
Look, you're really cute, but I can't understand what you're saying.
Many people hold "Silence of the Lambs" in high regard....does it promote cannibalism? Just because a film shows something that is germaine to its plot doesn't mean that it's promoting it.
Bad analogy. The cannibal was the bad guy and his behavior is not depicted as being good or admirable. The stalker is the good guy in "The Graduate" and the movie is set up to make the audience root for him to get the girl, even though he is stalking her.
Gavin deBecker writes in "The Gift of Fear" about the problem of stalking and how our society gives messages to both men and women that promote stalking:
In the sixties, a movie came out that painted a welcome and lasting picture of how a young man could court a woman. It was The Graduate. In it, Dustin Hoffman dates a girl (played by Katherine Ross) and then asks her to marry him. She says no, but he doesn't hear it. He waits outside her classes at school and asks again, and then again. Eventually she writes a letter saying she's thought it over carefully and decided not to marry him. In fact, she is leaving town and marrying another man. That would seem a pretty clear message -- but not in the movies.
Hoffman uses stalking techniques to find her. He pretends to be a friend of the groom, then a family member, then a priest. Ultimately, he finds the church and breaks into it just seconds after Katherine Ross is pronounced the wife of another man. He then beats up the bride's father, hits some other people, and wields a large wooden cross against the wedding guests who try to help the family.
And what happens? He gets the girl. She runs off with Dustin Hoffman, leaving her family and new husband behind. Also left behind is the notion that a woman should be heard, that no means no, and the notion that a woman has a right to decide who will be in her life.
My generation saw in The Graduate that there is one romantic strategy to use above all others: persistence.. This same strategy is at the core of every stalking case. Men pursuing unlikely or inappropriate relationships with women and getting them is a common theme promoted in our culture. Just recall Flashdance, Tootsie, The Heartbreak Kid, Blame It on Rio, Honeymoon in Vegas, Indecent Proposal.
This Hollywood formula could be called Boy Wants Girl, Girl Doesn't Want Boy, Boy Harasses Girl, Boy Gets Girl. Many movies teach that if you just stay with it, even if you offend her, even if she says she wants nothing to do with you, even if you've treated her like trash (and sometimes because you've treated her like trash), you'll get the girl. Even if she's in another relationship, even if you look like Dustin Hoffman, you'll eventually get Katherine Ross or Jessica Lange.
intofilm, even if what you wrote is true about the time, I still figure that if someone really wasn't interested, and yet the pursuer continually persisted and refused to take no for an answer, then sooner or later the person being pursued would get sick of it. There would be only so much the person being pursued could take.
shareTHE GRADUATE came out in 1967 and yes, today, the actions that Benjamin followed to track Elaine down would be considered stalking and sexual harassment. However, there is something worth mentioning. Elaine is just as confused with her life as Benjamin and she feels pressure by HER parents. Deep down inside, I think she really liked Ben (after all, once she calmed down and realized that Ben's side of the affair with Mrs. Robinson was true, she persuaded him to stay). The movie does not say much at all about Carl Smith, the man she was supposed to marry, but it is obvious that Elaine feels hesitant about marrying him. I think she was pressured to marry him by her parents. After all, Carl was a medical student and had a bright future ahead of him. Plus, he appeared confident. In addition, one has to remember that Mrs. Robinson was forced to marry her husband because she got pregnant and had to give her on her life dreams. To Elaine, Benjamin was her ticket to escaping what HER parents expected of her.
shareFucking moron...
shareDude, you've totally overthought this movie, even 11 years earlier
shareMost people on this thread don't understand that no one in The Graduate is supposed to be "good". It's as much a satire of the kids and the counterculture as their parents. And does what Benjamin does really pay off? Look at his face in the final shots. Is he any happier with Elaine than he was at the beginning of the movie?
share"So, Joshua_carpino, you are saying that you have no problem with stalking, and that anybody who does is just being overly sensitive."
no. that's what you think i said. i rest my case.
This is what you wrote:
'because people didn't think in terms of "stalking" back then unless they had reason to believe the person meant bodily harm. this was before america became a panicky,over protective day care center obsessed with hot button words like "stalker" or "creepy" and other pseudo phenomenon.'
The implication of this is that you think it is perfectly acceptable for somebody to continuously, relentlessly, surreptitiously follow somebody around everywhere and refuse to take "no" for an answer. Thus, you think stalking is okay and anybody who disagrees is being overly sensitive.
except i DON'T think all that,and in real life nobody "promotes stalking". look,it's only a movie. it's designed to turn out a certain way. is it uncomfortable to watch? yes. but like you said,she goes with him of her own free will. i've seen what real stalking is. some mental patient who used to live next to my mother managed to track her to two addtional addresses over 16 years. recently i read an article about a woman who was stalked for over a decade by a man who one day attacked her in her house and during the struggle fell,hit his head and died. the fallout? she went to jail for 15 years. this wouldn't make any sense even if she had killed him on purpose during the fight because it would have been self defense. and this happened in spite of the fact that these days,the public definition of "stalker" is generally so broad as to be meaningless(see my original post). why then,did the jury and the court not take this woman's part? i don't know. if you or someone close to you has had a traumatic experience with a stalker,you have my sympathy. if not,let it go. at any rate,it's still only a movie.
I don't accept the argument "it's only a movie". To me, it's a cop-out argument. My criticism of this film is that it portrays stalking - which is precisely what Benjamin does - as a legitimate and effective way to woo somebody. That is a very dangerous thing for a movie to do. People do absorb what they see on screen. For example, the release of Birth Of A Nation was instrumental in the revival of the Ku Klux Klan. After Jaws was released the killing of great white sharks skyrocketed, so much so that Peter Benchley, who wrote the novel on which the film was based, researched sharks, regretted writing the novel, and spent the rest of his life campaigning to protect sharks.
If we accept the premise of "it's only a movie", the entire discipline of Film and Cultural Studies goes out the window.
I didn't get the impression Ben was stalking Elaine. I got the feeling Ben would have left her alone if she really wanted him to. After all, he really only contacted her once; on the bus and the zoo. After that, it was she who came to him. After her initial meltdown at discovering it was her mother who initiated the affair, she seemed perfectly okay with having Ben around. In fact she asked him to stay. Elaine was every bit as frustrated with her ordered, structured life as Ben was with his. It was them against the older generation. She didn't want to marry Carl. I don't think either Ben or Elaine really knew what they wanted ; they just knew they were unhappy with the status quo. That's why the ending was so poignant. They gave in to their feelings, but now what? They realized they really hadn't thought things through. Anyway, that's what I took away from the film.
shareIf you call it "stalking" then okay. But the fact that you say it "pays off" is absurd. Nothing "pays off" at the end of this movie. They are left alone, with nobody to support them. They are basically screwed. Nothing "pays off". This movie is brilliant. Next time you watch it, pay attention to the set decoration, the costumes, the colors, the appearance of water and glass, black and white, the camera angles, the editing, and music. It all means something. Every bit of it.
Top 5: Stand By Me-The Green Mile-Singin' in the Rain-American Beauty-It's A Wonderful Life.
'Nothing "pays off" at the end of this movie. They are left alone, with nobody to support them. They are basically screwed'
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Well, I think the pay-off is that 2 people found their proper mate instead of letting the "bad guys" win. People don't need others to support them,they are both adults. And I doubt Ben's parent's deserted him. I don't think Elaine marrying a guy who she didn't love would be any better,including her conscience
Stalking? Haven't you ever been in love?
shareWeren't the families old friends ? I always got the impression that these 2 knew each other since they were young. I didn't get the impression that she was anything but temporarily angry with him.
She was under the false impression that Ben 'raped' her mother.
I don't know about anyone else but I know that on at least one occasion I accidently hurt someone's feelings and could not let the
subject drop until I got the person to understand that I did not mean what they thought I meant. With persistence on my part the situation was solved and a relationship saved - it was one I deeply cared about and was not willing to lose.
Of course I understand that in this situation, the truth was almost as bad as what Elaine thought (mistakenly) was the truth . In any case, Elaine was obviously not afraid of him - she was just po'd.
I've also been in the other position - one in which I was sure I didn't care if I ever talked to/saw the person again. Bottom line, my feelings were hurt. I didn't feel afraid of the offending party but yes, at the time, while the 'wounds' were fresh, I did wish this person would just leave me alone. I got over it and I never held it against the person I was upset with in later years. We are still friends decades later and I'm glad this person thought enough of our relationship to want me to understand, forgive and move on with life.
How anyone sees Bens actions as 'stalking' is beyond me. Yes, for 'effect', his character was over the top at times but never a threat to her.
Man, what a world our younger people are entering... I feel for them.
Totally agree with you.
I feel really sorry for those pathetic millenials.
Look Dude, I don't know how old you are and you strike me as someone very young to be this offended over classics like this, but this is too much??? 🙄
shareI agree, Ben's behavior is more than simply over-the-top. His parents start to realize this as well, such as the scene when he says he is going to propose to Elaine when she doesn't even like him. That's why I thought the film was being tongue-in-cheek about the whole thing and not condoning his actions. You can create a protagonist without aligning with this views. Ben starts out as a relatable character and then spirals out of control by the end. It's entertaining but frightening at the same time. He domineers over Elaine much in the same way Mrs. Robinson tried to control him.
'A major theme is people controlling (or trying to control) other people. It seems a lot of viewers do not understand this film.'
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I think a lot of viewers also wish to see rape/stalking and all that modern-day good stuff in everything. We did not think of this when the film was released, and not because our mentality is superior today. He did not stalk her; he pursued her.
Hey, wait a minute. Mrs. Robinson is the predator here. She coerces Ben into sleeping with her. No, she couldn't hold him down and rape him, but she did what a sexy woman in her forties could do to a young man of 21. She flirted with him, teased him, challenged his manhood, and blackmailed him.
Mrs. Robinson knew Ben didn't want to have an affair with her. He thought it was wrong. However, it's easy to entice a 21-year-old who is confused about what he wants from life into sex. Once Mrs. Robinson ensnares Ben, she does what sexual predators do. She controls him. Again, she can't beat him up, but she can threaten to expose the affair and ruin Ben's life. She can threaten to charge Ben with rape or burglary and get him in trouble with the law. Of course Mrs. Robinson doesn't want Ben to date her daughter, even though Mr. Robinson and the Braddocks all think it's a fine idea. Mrs. Robinson is jealous and possessive.
Ben's behavior is certainly creepy, but consider the circumstances. Ben feels trapped. He feels betrayed. He feels angry. This combination isn't going to bring out the best in anybody, especially somebody who was confused to start with. Ben's pursuit of Elaine is a way he can break free of Mrs. Robinson. At the same time he can defy Mrs. Robinson and exact revenge. So, in modern parlance, he "stalked" Elaine.
In the end, it seems like Ben and Elaine are not so much in love, but in cahoots against their parents who push them around as though Ben and Elaine are still children. As sure as Ben didn't want the affair with Mrs. Robinson, Elaine didn't want to marry that dork. So Ben and Elaine break free. That's why we love the ending.
It's a movie. It's not really important to analyze what would have happened in real life. You can ask whether Elaine should have called the cops on Ben. You can predict bad ends for the couple after the credits roll. However, such questions miss the point of why The Graduate is a movie we love after nearly 50 years.
It's quite obvious that no one in this thread was actually alive in 1967. Because if you had been, you would know that Ben was not "stalking" Elaine. What total nonsense. You're all engaging in presentism. No one on the face of the earth thought Ben was stalking her in 1967. It was a different world then.
share[deleted]
Well, it was the late sixties. Weird times.
And casting Dustin Hoffman as a ladies man? I guess Mike Nichols took a lot of drugs.
I think a lot of viewers also wish to see rape/stalking and all that modern-day good stuff in everything. We did not think of this when the film was released, and not because our mentality is superior today. He did not stalk her; he pursued her.
Re: How does a film that promotes stalking be so highly regarded?????
by maxtshea » Mon Dec 29 2014 11:27:24
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Hey, wait a minute. Mrs. Robinson is the predator here. She coerces Ben into sleeping with her. No, she couldn't hold him down and rape him, but she did what a sexy woman in her forties could do to a young man of 21. She flirted with him, teased him, challenged his manhood, and blackmailed him.
Mrs. Robinson knew Ben didn't want to have an affair with her. He thought it was wrong. However, it's easy to entice a 21-year-old who is confused about what he wants from life into sex. Once Mrs. Robinson ensnares Ben, she does what sexual predators do. She controls him. Again, she can't beat him up, but she can threaten to expose the affair and ruin Ben's life. She can threaten to charge Ben with rape or burglary and get him in trouble with the law. Of course Mrs. Robinson doesn't want Ben to date her daughter, even though Mr. Robinson and the Braddocks all think it's a fine idea. Mrs. Robinson is jealous and possessive.
Ben's behavior is certainly creepy, but consider the circumstances. Ben feels trapped. He feels betrayed. He feels angry. This combination isn't going to bring out the best in anybody, especially somebody who was confused to start with. Ben's pursuit of Elaine is a way he can break free of Mrs. Robinson. At the same time he can defy Mrs. Robinson and exact revenge. So, in modern parlance, he "stalked" Elaine.
In the end, it seems like Ben and Elaine are not so much in love, but in cahoots against their parents who push them around as though Ben and Elaine are still children. As sure as Ben didn't want the affair with Mrs. Robinson, Elaine didn't want to marry that dork. So Ben and Elaine break free. That's why we love the ending.
It's a movie. It's not really important to analyze what would have happened in real life. You can ask whether Elaine should have called the cops on Ben. You can predict bad ends for the couple after the credits roll. However, such questions miss the point of why The Graduate is a movie we love after nearly 50 years.
That's the hard reality to swallow, how all this drama is actually felt like it's needed. Elaine was drawn into Ben's first date partially by being challenged to look past all the things that seemed to be blocking her out, happening as it did fortuitously. Were it not for an earlier crash course in "adulterous love", would she still have wanted this nerdy-looking guy trying to chase her? It doesn't fit together but we knew her heart was in her nose too and what first attracted her mother to him may have been that.
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