Not only was there no 397, there was no 7848 or 69636!!

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Very interesting idea. When I first saw this film, I didn't understand it at all (I was a teenager.) It just seemed to be a lot of yelling. Then I watched it again, and again, and again. The layers were peeled back, and now it ranks among my all-time favorite movies. I love films that give the viewers a lot to talk about after it is over.

Today's blow-'em-up, in-your-face violence and action films require no thinking at all. This movie was from a different era....from a time when you actually had to let the actors reveal themselves. (Mad Men is like that too. It's all character development.) But...onto your post. It's a wild proposal. I don't necessarily agree with it, but then again, I just read it five seconds ago. I'm going to watch the movie again with this in mind and see how it plays.

The idea of Nick and Honey as a young George and Martha is entirely possible. Nick is an ambitious college professor, as was George in his younger years. He's a "flop" in the bedroom, as is George. He married a woman with more money than he had, George again.

The only thing that doesn't make sense is that George had a very troubled childhood, accidentally killing BOTH his parents, and apparently spending time in a mental hospital for a while. I don't remember any references to the same events in Nick's life.

Everyone refers to Honey as 'mousy.' I found her to be exactly the opposite. She's outspoken, emotional, talkative, even flamboyant (the whole interpretative dance scene at the road house.) I can envision her as a young Martha. Martha can't have children; Honey has issues in that department. (Side note: Honey, laying on her back and very drunk, says at one point that she doesn't want children. (she changes her mind later on.) This makes NO sense...I thought hysterical pregnancies happened to women who so desparately want a baby that their mind creates the biological illusion of pregnancy; menses stop, morning sickness develops, even the abdomen balloons up--mostly water. It's actually a fascinating example of how powerful the human brain is, and gives extra weight to the old expression "mind over matter."

When I was a child we had a neighbor who suffered from the same thing, but it was discovered as she supposedly entered her 2nd trimester. I can't imagine anyone having a hysterical pregnancy for a full 9 months...a doctor would know much, much earlier that there was no fetus growing in the uterus. Granted, in 1966, ultrasounds weren't yet invented, but doctors could still hear an unborn child's heartbeat, and feel around for the position of the developing fetus (breech babies were sometimes discovered, and doctors often attempted to manipulate the tiny body into the correct position---head down, facing the cervix.)

The only way Honey could have 'blown up' and looked full-term and NOT have had it discovered would be if she received absolutely NO medical care, never saw a doctor OR a nurse. This sometimes happened in the case of people who lived in extreme poverty, but even then, there were women, older women, to whom the expectant mother would have relied on for help during those months. And Honey wasn't raised in the slums...her father was a tent-show-revival evangelist, taking money from followers and obviously pocketing most of it.

As I think of it, a bunch of stuff is illogical, and lends credibility to your idea that Nick and Honey are figments of Geo and Martha's vivid imaginations; full-blown hallucinations, helped in large part by copious amounts of hard liquor:

1. It is, at least to me, ridiculous that a couple not-well-acquainted with their hosts, would show up at 2:30 in the morning at their house...for what? More drinking? Just how much can these people put away? It reminds me of Paul Newman in Cat on a Hot Tin Roof (another film in which Elizabeth Taylor is superb)...he drinks and drinks and drinks and doesn't show ANY signs of intoxication.

2. It is even more ridiculous that, once the intense nastiness between Taylor and Burton is revealed, that Nick and Honey don't beat a hasty retreat. Would YOU have remained in the house, in light of all that intense anger and hostility being flung around? I know I wouldn't...just watching George and Martha hurl invectives at each other would have made me feel extremely uncomfortable (I think I shall start a separate post for this issue...)

3. (more of the same subject) Honey is so drunk she vomits, not once, but 3 times. Good Lord, why doesn't she insist that Nick bring her home, being that she is extremely sick?

4. More strange and implausible moments: Why, when Martha races off in the station wagon (in the parking lot of the bar) and she stops her car at seeing Nick and Honey walking, why do they get in? Even more incredibly, why do they drive back to Martha's house? I thought they had decided to go home...At that point, it had to be past 4 am.

Not only does Martha bring them BACK to the house, both she and Nick decide to leave a very drunk Honey in the backseat of the car (I wouldn't think this is a good idea...what if she vomited in her sleep?)

5. Still in crazy-land: Nick must have agreed to go BACK to the house at Martha's suggestion. Why? Why would he say 'yes?' And not just 'yes' to going back to the house (again, I'll repeat, it must have been after 4:00 am ) but he also apparently decides its a good idea to climb those stairs and jump into bed with Martha. That never made sense to me. Martha is not attractive; she's a booze-soaked older woman with looks have faded, she swears like a sailor, AND she is married.

What was going through Nick's mind that made him decide, 'yes this is a fine idea. My wife has been vomiting and is dangerously intoxicated, the woman I'm about to bed is married to an older professor, (who could have hitched a ride and walk in on them at any moment.) Martha is a volatile, brash woman who, by virtue of her being the daughter of the college's president, have had Nick easily fired. And lets not also forget that, while she probably cleaned up nicely, at 4 am Martha was looking pretty beat up; overweight, stinking of booze and cigarettes, full of vitriol.

Openly flirting with Nick? Yes, I can see that. I can even feature her inviting him for a romp in the bedroom. But why would he say "yes." It makes no sense and I think, bizarre.

6. George DOES make it back to the house, where he finds an extremely intoxicated Honey sitting on his front steps, and, gazing up to the 2nd floor of his house, he can see the silhouettes of his wife and young Nick embracing. THAT is when he decides to he's going to tell his wife their son is dead. Honey is babbling to him "where are the bells? I heard bells clanging" and you can see George's mind working fast...coming up with the bombshell he is going to deliver to his wife---that YES, there were bells,---DOORBELLS---a telegram, bearing the news that their son is dead.

What prompts George to decide the game is over? It seems to me that seeing two people in his bedroom (he's on the front lawn) and knowing it must be Nick, is George's tipping point. THAT is when he makes up the idea, on the spot, to tell his wife a telegram arrives announcing the death of their son. Bizarre.

7. Why were Nick and Honey invited in the first place? Surely there were other couples at the faculty mixer who were closer to G&M's age, or who worked in the same department as George...why THEM? Why any guests at all? Even assuming the mixer had a late start...8 or 9 pm, for instance, by 2:00, I'd be worn out. Was this something Nick and Honey did a lot of? Staying up all night, drinking hard liquor straight ("fix me a drink" in this film simply means pouring hard liquor into a glass.)

8. With the exception of the lawn scene between George and Nick, in which they DO appear 'under the influence' there really are NO tell-tale signs of intoxication in anyone except Honey. No one slurs, stumbles, etc except Honey. If the young couple are not real, and exist only as hallucinatory delusions on the part of Martha and George, why does Honey get so incredibly wasted? Is is a way of telling us, the viewers, that this is indeed a younger Martha...prettier, married to a professor, and ruining herself with excessive drinking?

9. Back to the hysterical pregnancy. Martha, we find out in the final scene, cannot have children...but in light of the 'game' they play about their son, it is made clear that this reality is extremely painful for her. I can see MARTHA with a hysterical pregnancy...that makes sense....

Okay, I"m babbling so I'll stop. Thanks for the interesting idea!!!

Sorry OP (and others who give credence to this idea), this is pretty silly. The scene in the roadhouse confirms that Nick and Honey are real, not to mention the fact that Martha has sex with Nick while George is outside, Nick and Honey ring the doorbell/knock upon arriving at the house, etc.

This is an example of a well used theatrical device: the imaginary character. Could it be that both couples were the imagination of the other couple ?

- The waitress at the bar brings four drinks for the "last round", implying one last drink per person. If Nick and Honey were imaginary, she would have brought two.

- Honey tells George that Martha told her about their son. If Honey was imaginary, how could she share this information with George? George imagining that Martha told Honey is too convenient. This was after all the first time Martha had ever told anyone else about their son. George couldn't have overheard Martha because as we see, he is busy having a conversation with Nick.

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I love this film. I don't know if I buy OP's theory, but the discussion was most stimulating.

This is what I'll miss most about message boards.



"Victor, what are we going to do to stop this fiendish tit?"