The ending had very subtle suggestions to me that karen wasn't entirely straight anymore. How do you guys feel about that?
I, being a huge hepburn fan, didn't really like seeing this transformation at the end. It's so subtle, one can decide either way as to karen's orientation at the end. She was obviously in love with Garner throughout most of the movie, so this doesn't make much sense to me.
What is your interpretation and how do you feel about it?
I love Audrey Hepburn and I think this was a great role for her to take on. I'm straight, but I can also tell you that love is love, and people should not be denied marrige if they are in love. It's not right. I guess I understand this more because my uncle is gay and he is in love but he can't legally marry.
Anyways, I think she loved Garner to about until when he wanted to take them all away. To me, it seems she wanted him to ask her if it was true because she wanted a reason to end things possibly. I think she somewhat loved McClain, but when she died/sucicided Karen felt that she would love no man or no woman ever again. I got the impression that she would go away, become a teacher, and probably never marry or have any other loves again. Not to become a sad old woman or anything, but that she jsut didnt have the need to love anymore or something. She could stand on her own.
I think this is a great movie that people my age need to watch. I'm 15, and with all this crap about same-sex marrige and everything and how its just not right, I think people need to realize that lesbians and gay people are infact people too. They don't choose their sex path, current research has shown that you are infact born gay or straight. It's up to you to discover what will make you truly happy. I honestly think the Bible is flawed because it says people would go to hell if they choose to be gay. Maybe this is why I never really beleived in God...because he denies some people love. Well, you dont choose. You can live in denial all your life, but you will always know the truth.
Anyways, how old were you when you first saw this film?
"No more rhymes, I mean it!"
"Anybody want a peanut?"
18. I see what you mean about karen never loving again.
I don't think these boards are an appropriate front for moral arguments concerning marriage and sexuality. But since you brought it up, I must correct your slander of the bible. You shouldn't repeat things you hear from other people because it's secondhand information. You don't know whether it's actually true for yourself. If you don't know something first-hand, than you should either find out the truth for yourself or don't repeat it.
What you did to the bible is the same thing the townspeople did to karen and martha. You can do alot of harm by repeating faulty information (slander).
It's difficult to slander a fictional character as no-one can truely ask them what they were thinking. As this is a movie, people should be open to discuss their view on the meaning of the story.
I think the character discovered a freedom of spirit.
With all due respect, if you carefully read the Bible for yourself--and not base opinion on hearsay or what others TELL you it means--you'd discover that God never denies ANYONE the right or joy to love another. In fact, one of His greatest commandments is "Love one another, as I have loved you."
It is those who read the Bible in only a surface manner, and who "cherrypick" verses out of context, who read His condemnation into one individual's true love for another. On closer examination, it is apparent from Scripture that one's physical "plumbing" has nothing whatsoever to do with love. Find out the truth for yourself!
Could you please get off your high horse with your bible and go preach on more appropriate boards than this one?
It's unbelievable that I come to this site to find out about a movie and I end up reading something Bush himself might have written!
The poster was simply correcting an earlier error stated by another poster. If you have a problem with that, don't read it.
You could probably benefit from some Bush commentary, come to think of it.
I don't think Karen turned into a lesbo after Martha's death. I think she was very much straight, but simply realized how deeply she loved Martha after Martha was no more. Probably she felt guilty. I mean, imagine your friend comes out to you, tells you she loves you, then offs herself over it. Wouldn't you feel terrible?
I don't think Karen can be with Joe any longer cuz he reminds her of this fact.
I seriously doubt the revelation in Karen's face at the end was because she suddenly realized she was a lesbian and did love Martha.
She knew how distressed Martha had been. Just because Martha acted fine, doesn't mean Karen totally bought it. She figured she just wanted to be alone. But it was when the aunt came running out calling for Martha when the dread came to Karen. That was definitely a mixture of fear and dread on her face. Not "Oh I suddenly love you!"
**I think it's time for a passive-aggressive peanut butter sandwich.**
But it was when the aunt came running out calling for Martha when the dread came to Karen. That was definitely a mixture of fear and dread on her face. Not "Oh I suddenly love you!"
Zando777 once said:
> You could probably benefit from some Bush commentary, come to think of it.
Hey! No need to be cruel. <snicker, snort> Although, to nitpick, Bush agrees with the ones who claim the Bible says being gay is a sin, and everybody else here has said words to imply they didn't believe any such thing and were probably gay-positive, or at least not homophobic. And nobody but NOBODY deserves more Bush commentary.
(I crack myself up.)
I'll be back in a bit to actually post something on topic. I've got strong opinions about the question.
It's amazing how Bush Derangement Syndrome seems to work it's way into almost every discussion no matter what the subject. I'm no fan of Bush but the haters are absolutely and incredibly fanatical. Give it a break, he's only got 5 months left.
Now, back to the movie.
That's "President Bush" not "Bush". Show some respect.Have you ever heard an unkind word from the mans mouth ? No, you haven't. You are much more like the brat girl in this movie - if you don't agree with someone else, attack 'em !
President Bush has every right to his opinion. Same as you. Grow up.
Now - the movie... I wondered about Karens lack of emotion over the death of her long time friend not to mention the dissolution of her relationship with the Garner character. If I found my best friend hanging, especially if the suicide had a connection to me, I think I'd be really "over the edge".She was frantic when trying to break down the door so its not like she was incapable of that "range" of emotion. She was quite composed at the funeral also. Think about it - your livelyhood, fiance and reputation are all lost, not to mention the ordeal of the trial.It seemed to me that she was glad to put it ALL behind her and move on.
Of course there is a few days between the death and the funeral presumably but that is an awful lot to get over in 2 or 3 days - and she definitely looked like she was over it ! It seemed like she "set up" Garner/Joe as an excuse to leave him. I never got the impression that he had any doubts as to the truth of the matter and seemed 100% supportive throughout. The early 60's was a time of social change and questioning of all "rules", conventions etc. It seemed to me that Karen was saying screw it all - "I am strong, I am invincible, I'm woman..." (as in the song "I Am Woman"). With the truth "out" there really was no reason why her and Garner couldn't have picked up where they left off. Of course the school would have been a constant reminder of the ordeal but hey,Joe was a Doctor ! Not like they would have been hurting for cash without that particular business for her ! These are all top shelf people so I don't think the way "karen" played out the final scene was any kind of mistake, especially with Wyler directing. It was planned, directed and acted out exactly how the director wanted and the scene conveyed exactly what the director wanted.Maybe it was meant to convey how we tend to get so upset when, what seems like the "worst" is happening to us, that we need to have faith that maybe things happen for a good reason ? Had this NOT happened she would have been married to the cranky doc, stuck with the little brat girls for the rest of her life, dealing with the witch aunt etc., etc. With Karens looks, intelligence and confidence it seemed that the world was wide open to her as she walked away from the grave yard...grave yard...hmmmmm...symbolic ???
There was some dialogue about "bad things happening to good people..." and the "why ?" etc.so its possible that some "good", for Karen at least, came from it all - albeit the long, hard way ! On the other hand...had she played it any more emotional I'd/we'd be speculating that her "grief" was possibly a sign that Karen was also in love with Martha and just didn't realize it until her
death ! Ah the heck with it - its only a movie lol !! WAIT !!!! Maybe Karen "warmed" to the idea of Martha being her lover ! Maybe this was a closet unrequited love story all along - seriously ! Maybe Martha just wasn't Karens "type" but the relationship filled something emotionally for Karen. She really did send Joe packing once the "lesbian" angle came out in the open. Martha said herself she didn't really acknowledge her subconscious feelings until the gossip started. It took this brat kid to smash the through the surface and bring out the underlying feelings in this triangle or "3's a crowd' situation.
I just watched this for the first time so I'm still putting it all together here as I type. Maybe sould have thought it all out first THEN typed ?? LOL !
Yeah, probably ! But I think I'm on to something ... probably all already covered in earlier threads - time to stop typing and start reading...
Having experienced the sudden death of a sibling and its effects on my parents (not to mention me), I can honestly report that the reactions depicted onscreen to such event are inaccurate. Why do I mention this? Because in order to have any sort of cohesive story, it CAN'T be accurately depicted; the film would be mired in the deepest grief imaginable and would take years to move forward. Unless it's kept short, Hollywood can't report such things accurately and shouldn't--they're telling a story, not reporting the news.
Believe it or not, prior to the advent of Jerry Springer and reality TV, dignity and self-control were considered positive character traits. Given that, Karen's composed demeanor at graveside, especially given her horror upon finding Martha (and having watched the film again last night, I'm more convinced than ever that she thinks she sees something in Martha's window) comes as no surprise, plus, because the film is telling a story and not reporting facts, we see that Karen has survived what we hope is the worst and can move forward with her head high, i.e., there's symbolism involved. To tell you the truth, in the 40 or so years during which I've caught TCH on TV, I'm still not convinced that Martha is actually a lesbian; her "realization" could have been prompted by extreme stress and absolute mental exhaustion, and my impression is that this is Karen's reaction as well. And I reiterate, there's no evidence whatsoever that Karen was a lesbian. Too many viewers are eager to impose a contemporary (and unintended) sensibility onto this film.
It's unbelievable how some people always have to invoke Bush.
shareYou're right in concept - you shouldn't repeat something unless you know it to be true, however the bible does clearly state that it is considered a sin to be Gay, your defense of the bible in this case is incorrect.
shareWhat Bible are you reading because in the original Greek and Hebrew text, there is no mention of homosexuality (period). In fact, the word "homosexuality" wasn't invented until the 19th century and the whole man with man English translation wasn't added until King James (also known as Queen James - for his frequent homosexual affairs) added it in. How's that for irony?
The only thing the Bible was condemning was the orgies of the "pagan" temple slaves (which were with pretty much anyone of any gender). Look it up. Considering early Christianity feared a resurgence of polytheistic beliefs, it is no wonder that they'd condemn anything they deemed to be "pagan". There is no word that translates to homosexual in the original Greek writing. So, get your facts straight please!
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LI Reviews - http://www.li-reviews.com
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*beep* marriage was intended to be the appropriate time for sex & marriage was only condoned between man & woman according to the Bible. Why can't people just put away these books of myths & live life without them?
http://dearsuicide.blogspot.com/ Where DEATH is still celebrated
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Please kill yourself.
http://dearsuicide.blogspot.com/ Where DEATH is still celebrated
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You're very welcome.
http://dearsuicide.blogspot.com/ Where DEATH is still celebrated
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What a bunch of immature psycho-babble, Cdsoccer489. You have no idea what you are talking about. This not the place to make great sweeping moral pronouncements, especially something as simplistic and shallow as your comments.
shareI don't think that Joe was homophophic. I think Karen broke it off with Joe because he had to ask if it was true. She even says they can't get married if there is that doubt there. If he had been homophobic he would never have stood by them as long as he did.
To address the original question... I think Karen was stronger for what happened. I don't know if she was gay in the end, I don't think we were meant to know. I do believe that if she was put in a situation like this again that she would be more open to love. Karen loved Martha, if given time and the proper setting it might have become more. The point is that neither one had really thought of being lovers.
Lol: During Oscar Wilde's time, they were incarcerated.
u obviously saw the film.
Historically, it hasn't been an easy familial or social existence for Gays, not to mention the hate crimes
--don't agree with that 100%, I mean, there were the acient Greeks. They were pretty tolerant. There were many cultures all over the world like this. I dunno where it all went wrong, but meh.
I liked this film. i'd like to see the play one day.
love and kisses
T-bag: Unfortunately Pretty, that ain't an option...
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I believe that Karen never thought her marriage would work with Joe bc of this incident. They would always have it hanging over them. In addition, I believe Karen still loved Joe but she didn't want him to have to deal with it anymore.
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ShellOil, what an unfortunate choice of words...
When Karen went for a walk to clear her head and then she's walking back towrds the house, something in her face said something had dawned on her (Don't know if she realised she might be a lesbian or that Martha may be in danger) I don't think it was the latter because Martha was sleeping when she left and there was no reason to be alarmed. I think she may have realised she might have feelings for Martha and ran to tell her or be near her.
I like James Garner here, the man or his characters never has a bad bone in his body, he wasn't homophobic. I don't know I really liked all three central characters, probably Shirley MacLaine the most. I am a straight girl but did want Karen to be a lesbian because then it all wouldn't have been in vain (and there are too many males who are gay in film and never any lesbians who are attractive!)
When Karen went for a walk to clear her head and then she's walking back towrds the house, something in her face said something had dawned on her
I took that look to mean she sensed (sixth sense or whatever) that something was terribly wrong with Martha - which turned out to be true.
Nobody, not even the rain, has such small hands.
That is pretty much what I said in my post in a related thread.
There was no hint that Martha was in trouble, as she seemed amicable when she said she wanted to talk tomorrow, sleep now.
I like the mystery of that moment, and the tragedy of Martha's suicide. She is a heartbreaking character, indeed. I think that Karen wasn't concerned with whether or not she was a homosexual so much as she was simply in love. I don't know, it's all so...mysterious.
Makes me cry.
~*~La Vie N'Existe Pas Sans L'Amour~*~
***STAR TREK FANS, VISIT: www.usscathexis.com***
I don't think it implied or suggested that she'd had some change of sexual orientation. She was mourning the death of her friend and decided to go into the world alone without her boyfriend, who she'd been having problems with.
Holding out hope for The Front Runner.
The author is extremely rightious. She condemns not only the flagrant gossips and homophobes, but thru Karen's rejection of her fiancee, those who are anything less than 100% accepting of homosexuals. We're supposed to admire Karen's proud walk out of the cemetary, but what a burden she places on all those she will meet thru the rest of her life. I agree she may well lead a loveless life. Who among can truly live up to her almost impossibly high standards?
Nobody, not even the rain, has such small hands.
Whats wrong with being right?
sharejescci, this is why I love Audrey's character. She has high expectations and doesn't bend to others. So what if she lives a loveless life? At least she stood by what she thought was right. There are too few people in the world like her, but if there were more, it would be a beautiful place to live in.
To answer the original poster's question regarding Karen's orientation, my opinion is that she was heterosexual. She dumped her fiancee because she knew that no matter where they went, the rumors would always follow them and he'd never be able to have a happy life. I believe the "change" of expression that everyone refers to at the end of the movie, is because she understood what Martha meant when she said she wanted to be alone so she could "sleep." I think Karen understood Martha was talking about suicide. Which makes the story even sadder for me. She was too late to save her good friend.
I agree. Karen lost her best friend because of a town's slander and persecution. It's no wonder that she would not even look their way at the end. No amount of mourning or appologies from them could help. At the end, Karen walks off to start a new life for herself, free from allegations and those who destroyed her life.
In response to others comments on her expression as she ran back to the house, I do not believe that their was a realization of homosexuality. I had never seen nor heard of this movie prior to watching it, but I knew instantly thats Martha was going to kill herself when she let the curtain drop. The way the film was shot was evidence enough. Not to mention, after Aunt Lilly comes looking for her, Karen turns back to the house. The shots and cmaera angles change rapidly and even the soundtrack becomes more sinister, as if something bad is happening. All of this happens before Karen's apparent expression changes.
"He'll get over it. He got over not being God!"
City of Angels (not the movie, the musical)
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I never get involved in religious discussions yet I must say that dkonrad's earlier biblical interpretation on this thread (Jan. 4, 2007, 12:01:21) OPPOSED many people's biblical condemnation of certain things. Please go back and read it carefully. The poster meant to exhibit a wise and tolerant point of view and I applaud that effort.
I am a life-long and contented gay man who left structured religion behind long ago.
Peace,
John Martin, 46
It was obvious to me that Karen was a lesbian too, at the end. They managed to codify it for the audience of that time. But it is more than obvious from today's perspective.
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Is it or do you want to see it that way?
"just panties, what else do I need?"
Poseidon Adventure
I thought Karen was straight (unfortunately!) and I interpreted that look at the end as a look of terror :P
Fantastic film! Too bad, the sad ending, but at that time the movie-business wouldn't have let Karen and Martha live happily ever after, too controversial.
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Does it matter? Does it matter at ALL? It is not the point if Karen was gay or not.
I still believe that Karen was very much straight. But if she had given a thought to have a relationship with another woman, what comes into my mind is love, instead of labels!!!!!
Sexuality is fluid, you go with the flow. Besides, everyone has the potential being bisexual pointed out by Freud and agreed by Dr. Alfred Kinsey, "Most people appear in a certain level to be bisexual". It is not strictly positive that everyone is born with a fixed sexual preference. "VERY FEW, only 5%-10%, are absolutely homo or heterosexual." Dr. Kinsey also noted.
I don't intend to be offensive, but I have to defend my opinions.