Ponder this: Is Karen gay?


When Audrey walks away from the town after the funeral, past even her fiance... she's fed up with the acidic gossip, with the vicious townspeople, devastated by Martha's death... but is there another reason, too? Has she found the same truth inside herself? I've heard people mention it time and time again and was sure it'd be discussed here, but I guess not. So -- what do you think? Did Karen realize she was a lesbian as well... did she realize her feelings for Martha a moment too late?

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I don't believe Karen was gay. She was fed up. A lie took her best friend away, her fiancee and her career. Good story.

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i dont know I watch this movie maybe once a year and I this idea always comes up in the back of my head everytime I watch it. I don't know if its because of the way Audrey performed it or what but I always thought there was some sense of... "maybe if we tried and moved away somewhere...."

I recently watched the movie Brokeback Mountain. The film takes place during a time and a culture where Homosexuality is a disease and is frowned on. The part that Heath Ledger plays is interesting, he plays the straight man when he wasn't with his Brokeback Mountain pal to avoid his life being ruined but he never frequented the gay clubs or any of that either when he was alone unlike his boyfriend Jake Gyllenhaal's character. Even though Jake's character played the straight man around his family and close friends, he also had a secret life and frequented the gay scene.

anyway, my point is.... I always had this idea that maybe Karen loved Martha but also loved the idea of a future family with her boyfriend to avoid ridicule. I don't think people should be labeled gay or straight, I as well as some other people believe in some fluidity. Martha on the other hand, I think she kinda knew always, it's just there was no way she could really act on it and she grew frustrated. Plus she knew that people didn't accept it at that time so she thought of herself as this horrible person. She thought something was wrong with her because she came from a time period where homosexuality was considered a disease.

I know the movie is really suposed to be about how a small town believes this rumor spread by an annoying girl and ruins people's lives.... but the homosexuality element is so overpowering its hard to not talk about it.

Komunickashun

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mimi_0414, thats the end of it all. a truly heartbreaking, harrowing story.

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I don't think she was a lesbian. I think she walked away from everyone (including Joe), because she was disgusted by everyone around her. All those people had driven Martha to suicide, whether she was a lesbian or not.
Karen clearly loved Martha very much (as a friend) and all those people contributed to ruin her life. She was too affected by Martha's death and she was very sickened by everyone around her.

Joe was the only one who supported both Karen and Martha, but something tells me that Karen wasn't even all that interested in Joe to begin with.

Para amar hay que morir muchas veces.

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I don't think she really loved him either, and I think she was a little disgusted when he suggested that they all move far away. I think that made him part of the problem in Karen's eyes. I think she thought that if he wanted to run away once, he would *always* want to run away when the story caught up with them in their new surroundings. Karen didn't want to live like that. And suddenly Joe didn't want a baby either. How many other changes to her life was she going to allow to be dictated by other people?

I loved the ending. Joe didn't deserve Karen.






God save Donald Duck, vaudeville and variety

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I feel the same way. I don't think Joe deserved Karen at all, even though he was a good guy.
I read many posts saying that Joe was a great catch because he was constantly offering Karen a 'perfect life', but he was extremely selfish to me. He wanted her to be with him all the time and taking care of him. Sure, okay... maybe he was in love, but it was a selfish love, because he was constantly overwhelming her.

I love the way Karen simply walks away from everyone, including him.

Para amar hay que morir muchas veces.

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I've always gotten the feeling that the light bulb went off in Karen's head after Martha told her...so she went outside just to sort things out. I mean, that's a heavy thing to admit to someone! Love is big! I don't neccessarily believe Karen is lesbian, while Martha most certainly is. I think that maybe Karen realized as much as Martha did, perhaps too late that she did love Martha deeply. But there are all kinds of loves out there! They were close so what would be so different really? Maybe it's just today's thinking? I myself believe that love is love and I believe also in bi-sexuality. I think however that Karen would not prefer to think of herself in any certain way really. So, the director was excellent in perhaps making us all guess. We will never truly know.

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"The only one who showed any hint of lesbianism was Martha." You make it sound like Martha may not have even been a lesbian. A lot of people say Martha just became confused after the accusations came out, but I disagree. It's exactly as her character said. The lies turned a light on in her head, saying 'You do love Karen. The idea of being lovers with her really isn't that far off because you actually wish it were true.' Her character was tormented by this revelation though. It'd been inside her for years but she had just pushed it to the back of her mind and ignored it. She could no longer ignore it when it was staring right in her face, surrounding her everywhere she went. I don't think there was any confusion in Martha's mind when she declared her love for Karen. The only confusion was with why she had these feelings. But there was no confusion to her over whether or not she loved Karen. She always had, but just never allowed the feelings to come to fruition. When the lie came out and hit so close to home, everything became clear to her (why she always felt agitated when Joe was around, etc.).

Anyway, back to the topic of this thread. It is ambiguous. I feel there is no right answer. I can see it going both ways. I think it's very possible that Karen was in love with Martha too, but was just too scared to admit it or didn't realize these feelings were there. However, I also think it's possible Karen was straight. This seems the more likely truth. At the same time, I can't help but think there are some underlying feelings there. Not to the same extent as Martha, but they could be there (like someone else said, Karen may be realizing her feelings for Martha are deeper than previously thought; that said I still don't think Karen was gay and I don't think she loved Martha as much as Martha loved her). I really like this movie and I like how it's all open to interpretation. No one is actually right or wrong because no explicit answer is given. We can all only guess and assume to what we think is right.

"No one forgets the truth, they just get better at lying."

RIP MJ

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Karen's not gay.

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"I don't think Joe deserved Karen at all"
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Everybody is slamming Joe but at least keep in mind when this is taking place. It was a different USA. He wasn't a bad guy and if anything one should think he was portrayed admirably even if he wasn't perfect.

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I really enjoyed reading the comments on this thread. It seems that the consensus is that Karen was straight, or at least puting her brain together about what Martha had told her.
I think everyone (even I probably) misses the point entirely. Films can be about how we interpret them and all sides actually have some validity.

This is the way I see it (Spoiler alert):
The point of Karen's character is that she was a good person. She was the kindest person in the play/movie, so of course she would be loved by two different people of both genders. Audrey Hepburn was right for the role because who wouldn't want to be with someone like her. Even the way she looks at Martha when she gives her that last look before Martha locks the door to kill herself SHOWS what a brilliant actress Hepburn was and brilliant director Wyler was for including that. The look could substitute any amount of text for explaining the word EMPATHY. Every moment of her performance was perfection because WE as viewers are supposed to fall in love with her, too. She is SO giving, and SO loyal that she never even judges Martha when she finds out she IS a lesbian.

ALSO, no one has mentioned that throughout the film Karen never says anything mean about gay people or that being gay was wrong. Just that the truth was that she and Martha were not lovers. Wouldn't she be more homophobic if she wasn't gay? But Karen was not a self-loathing person. Even if she wasn't a lesbian (I'll explain why I believe she is in a second) it would seem out of character to be mean in any way to a person for such a petty thing as who they love. Maybe I'm wrong--- considering how many closet cases loathe themselves, but for the sake of the lack of ironies during that period of time (relative to today) lets say she would have said something more disparaging about gay people if she was completely straight.

Could her breaking up with Joe be a subconscious effort to sabotage the hetero part of her life and finally embrace the part of her she didn't want to face?

And Karen consistenty (at least toward the end of the film) choose to be with Martha. Over Joe (although maybe in a subtle indirect way)

They say that they love each other as if its no big deal. Like sisters. Or best friends. But wouldn't Karen have possibly acted homophobic? Even in an exchange like this? NO. Because part of her never really CARED. Or thought through the implications of homosexuality until Martha brings it up towards the end. In the end it was so exhausting that she just loved being with Martha and wouldn't have given up the friendship no matter what.

SHE afterall, asked Martha to come away with HER. Basically saying to her, I accept you as you are. I understand what you are saying, and I love you anyways.
It could also subtley mean: if the world were fair, I would be with you. And since we both are in the same boat. We both have suffered for being gay (or rumored to be gay), even when we never realized what being gay truly meant, I am still not afraid of being with you.

So YES, I believe Karen was gay, maybe not exclusively lesbian, but in love with Martha because after the whole experience she realized how ridiculous the labels truly were. LOVE is LOVE. Karen and Martha know each other like a husband and wife might anyways since they've known each other for so long. And Karen is obviously not as afraid of the feelings Martha was talking about. Maybe in the end she felt that what Martha was saying was REAL. And maybe as a previous poster stated, Martha was the one that Karen should have loved all along. Martha was not Joe, who was also fairly devoted to Karen. But Martha loved her and suffered so much more than any character for her love, and Martha would have been happier if Karen just started being more receptive of that love. So Karen decided to be more receptive in the end. BUT Martha dies, so we never know how happy their lives might have been.

Also, Karen represents us(the viewers of this great movie)! Everyday people who should be more honest about relationships. We come to the realization that it doesn't matter who we love. Life will continue. Even when we have to struggle. We can be gay or straight. It doesn't matter, because we survive either way. We all have our individual struggles.

Martha, the self-hating person is still good but never found love other thatn Karen's. They are basically two sides of the same coin, but one takes her feelings to a darker place while the other tried to celebrate her relationships in a positive way. Or at lest explore the possibilities. The story could also be a lesson in how we should be more like Karen and less like Martha when loving. Being receptive to the feelings we feel. And learning to live through the pain.

This is just an interpretation. It might be wrong, but it's my own truth I guess.

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That was a really great analysis of Karen's character and I think you have a really good understanding of her character. I agree for the most part and I think that what you mentioned about Audrey's acting was spot on. She clearly was the type that appeals to people like Joe and Martha because of how nice she is. But to be honest I'm not exactly sure if I can say whether she was straight or lesbian.

Good point on how she never said anything spiteful about lesbians, though I couldn't help but feel she just didn't because that would make her look hateful and her character was too kind to do that. I think she was definitely a gay supporter but she didn't understand it since she said something along the lines of "Imagine how it must feel for those who are like this. The ones who choose this." If she truly had affections for women she would definitely know that it's not a choice. That was one part that made me think she was straight.

I think her relationship with Joe was actual love and it seemed like if she were lesbian before any of the rumors began she would have had never wanted to become engaged to him for the fact that she wouldn't marry a man and have a child with him if she knew she was living a lie. I think that Karen would have known just as well as anybody that marrying someone you aren't sexually attracted to is not going to work out. She's too smart to set a marriage up for that kind of failure especially if it involved raising a child.

Also despite what some have said Joe seems to me to be a really understanding man and if he wasn't he wouldn't have stood by Karen and Martha if he wasn't. It would have been so easy for him to turn on them out of distrust and say that the rumors were true but he didn't. I think the doubt that he felt was something any person would relate to in the situation. Karen didn't leave him because he did anything to dissatisfy her but I think it was because she cared about him and didn't want to have him be dragged down by the rumors that followed her. I didn't think it was a great reason for leaving a supportive man like that but I've never been in such a bad situation.

The part that makes me think she might have been open to the idea of falling in love with Martha. She loved her and it seemed platonic to her up until Martha told her how she felt, when she told her how she felt it clearly made Karen feel like she COULD feel that way for Martha. I think that while before Martha told her how she felt she had only wanted men. I think that before that she never once noticed how deeply Martha felt and at the end at the funeral she probably wanted to honor that by not marrying. I couldn't help but notice during the movie that both Joe and Martha had similar good qualities (as well as the main character flaw of pride) and Karen probably can't deny that they meant something to her.


I really think your last part is well put and I think that one thing that I might like to add is that it's especially interesting that Karen asked Martha to come with her, she had turned down Joe who would have a much less difficult time being followed by the gossip yet she asked Karen. I think this is either because She believes Joe can move on and she can sense that Martha can't get by on her own. Martha was really self-loathing and my personal belief is that any mutual love that she and Karen would share would not have worked out because of how ashamed she felt. If Karen had stopped her from killing herself I could only see that making Martha more withdrawn. Remember, Karen didn't want to stay engaged to Joe for that exact reason, being that she worried about how it would hurt him being with her.

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