The Hidden Fortress vs Star Wars


Of course i read what has been sad about the story being told by two lesser characters like in star wars, but while watching this movie i never had the feeling like "gee this movie really reminds of star wars". I think this movie was a lot deeper then star wars and for some maybe a little less entertaining.

I think this is a cool adventure movie about sin and honor. The two lesser characters weren't only corrupted by money but also corrupted by lust. As where the general is very loyal and can keep from temptation.

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Well, both films are equally important to cinematic history, and both are splendid films. The reason Star wars is so highly regarded is becaus eof the impact it had during it's time. Sci-fi had never been see that way, and it grew from a cult classic to a major classic for not only its special effects, but also its story (inspired by this). Kakushi-toride no san-akunin, although original, had it's main themes played upon in previous movies like Shichinin no samurai, and therefore recieved less feedback. It was also Japanese, which got it considerably less American comercialization.

I give them both 8/10

My DVD collection: http://imdb.com/mymovies/list?l=19776148
THE FOX

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http://www.starwarz.com/starkiller/scripts/thestarwars_synopsis.htm

The above link is to a very early synopsis of the story Lucas originally had in mind for Star Wars. Obviously, the story changed drastically from this early version to the completed film, but it gives an idea of just how much of a ripoff/homage to The Hidden Fortress Lucas had in mind when he began writing.

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Thats because if you grab Luca$$ by his legs, and shake him upside down, no idea will ever fall on the ground.

He is nothing more distant of an artist.He just developed some effects, and in order to make lots of money, he just STEALED other great directors and writers work (in this case, one of the best directors/writers of the last century) in order to have the garanty of a huge box office.

Luca$$ could have been easily the director of Fantastic 4, or any modern blockbuster.Movies so horrible, that could make sick the strongers of stomachs.
In fact, those horrible prequels are in the same league as any empty blockbuster today.

The only diferences with Episodes 4 5 & 6 are because he stealed the stories from other movies.

I laugh when I listen someone saying "who could imagine Vader was luke's father?"...when the father son strugle is oldest than abraham! Or the princess in distress saved by the rebel guy, and the young prince longing to gain the love of a young princes.
Stories old as the history itself.Thats what saved the original trilogy.

And in the new trilogy, Luca$$ just swallowed his own pill.He think a writer is someone with a pen and a piece of paper who writes letters in a certain order.
Dont believe me........you just take the script and give it to any prof. or university teacher.99% of the answers will be "this is a piece of excrement!!"
The other 1% will not dare to read it.





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man your argument would be sound if you conjugate your verbs correctly. not STEALED...STOLE. english is stupid that way.

hidden fortress is better than star wars. kurosawa is still better than lucas ever was. and he's dead.

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wow your a english douche..LOL. you must have been picked on a lot as an adult.

My feet smells like *beep* Its because I stepped on dog poop.

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"He is nothing more distant of an artist.He just developed some effects, and in order to make lots of money, he just STEALED other great directors and writers work (in this case, one of the best directors/writers of the last century) in order to have the garanty of a huge box office."

If he only wanted to make money he definitely wouldn't have done Star Wars. Sci-fi movies weren't doing well at the box office at the time. An American Graffiti sequel would have made much more sense from a financial stand point. Although, ironically when he eventually did get around to making it, it bombed horribly. There's no way he could have foreseen that though, everyone thought it was going to be a huge success before it's release.

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Lucas is a bad director and probably a terrible money-seeking person, but that doesn't make Star Wars a bad film. He didn't do much in the creation of the trilogy (he didn't direct Empire and Jedi, he didn't write the scripts, he wasn't the one behind the special effects etc. All he did was grabbing the money.) So I like Star Wars because of the work of all the other people that put so much effort in re-making all the epic stories of the world into one really EPIC story.

Did you see all my favorite movies? http://www.imdb.com/mymovies/list?l=39935568

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Good artists copy, great artists steal.

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[deleted]

A good story well told. You aren't going to find an original story many places, storytelling has such a long history. Star Wars tapped into these ancient myths and made them new again, with the perfect balance of the new: effects, lovable characters easy to root for, and an expansive world unlike any we had seen before; with the old, tapping into archetypes that resonated. Yes it borrowed a lot of storytelling from a lot of sources, but Lucas knew what he was doing. He also surrounded himself by great people. His later films have suffered not because he was never a great artist, but because became successful and no longer had the pain and pressure that produces good art. It's very hard to be both very successful and continue to be a great artist - it can be done but everything is against you.

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Granted, dialogue is not Lucas' strong suit by any means. But he is a fine storyteller and a good writer. Your ridiculous rant against him (directing this at Nicolas) is a joke. It's very funny reading someone who can barely form sentences as he complains about the writing ability of someone else.

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http://www.starwarz.com/starkiller/scripts/thestarwars_synopsis.htm

The above link is to a very early synopsis of the story Lucas originally had in mind for Star Wars. Obviously, the story changed drastically from this early version to the completed film, but it gives an idea of just how much of a ripoff/homage to The Hidden Fortress Lucas had in mind when he began writing.


The URL of the link has changed:
http://starwarz.com/starkiller/the-star-wars-story-synopsis/

Be sure to proof your posts to see if you any words out

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Thats because if you grab Luca$$ by his legs, and shake him upside down, no idea will ever fall on the ground.

He is nothing more distant of an artist.He just developed some effects, and in order to make lots of money, he just STEALED other great directors and writers work (in this case, one of the best directors/writers of the last century) in order to have the garanty of a huge box office.

Luca$$ could have been easily the director of Fantastic 4, or any modern blockbuster.Movies so horrible, that could make sick the strongers of stomachs.
In fact, those horrible prequels are in the same league as any empty blockbuster today.

The only diferences with Episodes 4 5 & 6 are because he stealed the stories from other movies.

I laugh when I listen someone saying "who could imagine Vader was luke's father?"...when the father son strugle is oldest than abraham! Or the princess in distress saved by the rebel guy, and the young prince longing to gain the love of a young princes.
Stories old as the history itself.Thats what saved the original trilogy.

And in the new trilogy, Luca$$ just swallowed his own pill.He think a writer is someone with a pen and a piece of paper who writes letters in a certain order.
Dont believe me........you just take the script and give it to any prof. or university teacher.99% of the answers will be "this is a piece of excrement!!"
The other 1% will not dare to read it.


First, nicholas28, I don't think you'd dare give your little synopsis to any English teacher. They would definitely be correct if they said "this is a piece of excrement," when referring to its grammatical content, as well as its spelling.

Now then, to your contentions that George Lucas doesn't deserve his success, because he "stole" all his ideas from literary sources as well as earlier film makers. Well, friend, what cave have you been living in all these years? If you look at a VAST number of film and literary sources, you will find that they all had a number of predecessors.

Don't believe me? Okay, let's start with Akira Kurosawa, director of "The Hidden Fortress." Another film he directed is titled "Throne of Blood." It deals with a lord in feudal Japan who -- after it's foretold that he will be the land's ruler -- murders his superior in order to make the prophecy come true. His wife -- who was in on the plot -- begins to see the ghost of the dead lord haunting the castle and eventually kills herself. A series of other prophecies come to pass, that ultimately leads the the corrupt lord's downfall.
Does the plot sound familiar? It should if you know Shakespeare, because that's the plot of MacBeth.

"Throne of Blood" is a great film (yes, I've seen it), and Kurosawa has freely acknowledged his debt to Shakespeare in its creation. The fact that Kurosawa borrowed the plot from MacBeth doesn't make it any less of a film, it just means that he took inspiration from it.

Late in life, Kurosawa directed a film called "Ran," which in Japanese translates as "Chaos." But you could just have easily called it "King Lear" because once again Kurosawa took his inspiration for the film from The Immortal Bard's work.

Kurosawa also directed "The Seven Samuari," which is considered to be one of the greatest films of all time. Many directors and film makers have paid hommage to it over the years. In many ways, it's story-line is considered original in cinema. However, it owes at least some of its plot to a much older Greek drama titled "Seven against Thebes."

I mentioned Shakespeare earlier. He's rightly considered one of greatest literary forces of the English language, if not the world. Yet many of the plots of his plays were borrow from a variety of sources. "Hamlet" was already an old story when he dusted it off and adapted it to the Elizabethian stage. Many of his "Roman" works (i.e. "Julius Caesar," "Anthony and Cleopatra," "Titus Andromeda") were taken from the Roman writer Plutarch.

I've only listed two here, but there are many, many other examples of great works -- literary, cinema, and other art forms -- which were not original. Instead they come into existence because their creators took inspiration from earlier works. That's the way it is with the creative process. A person doesn't create something in a vacuum. Books are written, films are made, and pictures are painted from works that were previously done by other people.

George Lucas himself admits that he took his inspiration for the "Star Wars" series from a variety of sources -- "The Hidden Fortress" being but one. He also credits Joseph Campbell's "Hero of a thousand faces" as a source. Having read Campbell's book, I can see many of the elements in "Star Wars."

Yes, nicholas28, many of the elements throughout "Star Wars" are as old as written literture, and also dominate oral tradition as well. The trick is taking what's there and presenting those existing elements in such a way that they entertain an audience -- something that Lucas did very well. You say you laugh at those who marveled at Vader being Luke's father, on the grounds that its a very old literary device. I don't know if you were around when the series was initially released, but I was. When I saw "The Empire Strikes Back" in 1980, I'll never forget how the entire audience gasped when Vader said to Luke: "No, I am your father." For a couple of days after the film's release, that was THE topic of discussion.

An old plot device? Granted. But Lucas made it seem fresh, and that's where it really counts.

As far as your contention concerning that Lucas is no writer -- "He think a writer is someone with a pen and a piece of paper who writes letters in a certain order." -- and you offer as "proof" that all a person has to do is take the script to any professor or university teacher and "99 percent of them" will contend that this is a piece of "excrement."

First of all, how about naming a few names nicholas28? What kind of teachers are they? English teachers? Film professors? Someone else? I'd like to see their credentials as well, because if they taught you, they obviously did a lousy job.

In my opinion "Star Wars" is a modern-day equivalent of "The Odyssey" (Yes, I've read that too), and will stand the test of time throughout the ages. Long after everyone today is dust in the ground, the "Star Wars" series will continue to entertain people for many generations to come.

Who knows? Maybe someday, somebody will do a film (or whatever media of the time) that was inspired by "Star Wars." Then some nobody like nicholas28 can smugly contend that its director (or the equivalent) just "stole" the idea from George Lucas, and chastise that person for daring to "steal" from a truly great director.

"I find your lack of faith disturbing"

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Kurosawa also directed "The Seven Samuari," which is considered to be one of the greatest films of all time. Many directors and film makers have paid hommage to it over the years. In many ways, it's story-line is considered original in cinema. However, it owes at least some of its plot to a much older Greek drama titled "Seven against Thebes."

Actually, the inspiration for SEVEN SAMURAI, came from an article Kurosawa and his writers found about a samurai protecting a farming village from roaming bandits in feudal Japan. That idea clicked. Kurosawa then based some of his samurai on real-life warriors.

But I agree with you on the rest of your points. I an not always happy with what George Lucas does, but taking ideas from so many different sources and molding them into your own unique story is not the easiest thing to do and I feel Lucas doesn’t get enough credit for that. Getting ideas together as diverse as THE HIDDEN FORTRESS, THE SEARCHERS and FLASH GORDEN serials and making it successful, should say something about the ability to tell a good story.

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Actually, the inspiration for SEVEN SAMURAI, came from an article Kurosawa and his writers found about a samurai protecting a farming village from roaming bandits in feudal Japan. That idea clicked. Kurosawa then based some of his samurai on real-life warriors.

Your absolutely right, Big G-2, and I apologize for not being clear on that. I recall reading that article (about where Kurosawa got his inspiration) in a book of film history.

Actually, "The Seven Samurai," is original to film in many ways. It's been pointed out many times that this was the first film in which the plot involved a small group of warriors assembled together to protect a helpless village or community, against a much larger force. Many films since then -- most notably "The Magnificient Seven" which is a direct American copy -- have used that plot device.

The point I wanted to make is that even though Kurosawa may not have been familiar with "Seven Against Thebes," it's a plot-line that has been popular in OTHER forms of media for many thousands of years. People have always loved routing for the underdog, and seeing if a small group of protagonists can triumph over seemingly impossible odds.

I appreciate the fact you got what I was driving at Big G-2. I don't think George Lucas walks on water -- there are a number of things he's done over the years that's made me wince. But it really bugs me when people without even the smallest amount of talent like nicholas28 slam him with such broad statements. Because you know they couldn't possible come up with something as good in thousand years.

"You don't know the power of the dark side of the force.

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First, nicholas28, I don't think you'd dare give your little synopsis to any English teacher. They would definitely be correct if they said "this is a piece of excrement," when referring to its grammatical content, as well as its spelling.

Its better to have grammatical errors, and not to use a perfect speech to say SW is great.

Now then, to your contentions that George Lucas doesn't deserve his success, because he "stole" all his ideas from literary sources as well as earlier film makers. Well, friend, what cave have you been living in all these years? If you look at a VAST number of film and literary sources, you will find that they all had a number of predecessors.

The fact Shakespeare used a pre existent story to create Romeo & Juliete doesnt mean he is a bad writer, because he proved to be excellent after and before of that play.
But Luca$$ cannot write nothing good if he doesnt steal things to others.Thats why his work receives less credit.

Don't believe me? Okay, let's start with Akira Kurosawa, director of "The Hidden Fortress." Another film he directed is titled "Throne of Blood." It deals with a lord in feudal Japan who -- after it's foretold that he will be the land's ruler -- murders his superior in order to make the prophecy come true. His wife -- who was in on the plot -- begins to see the ghost of the dead lord haunting the castle and eventually kills herself. A series of other prophecies come to pass, that ultimately leads the the corrupt lord's downfall.
Does the plot sound familiar? It should if you know Shakespeare, because that's the plot of MacBeth.

"Throne of Blood" is a great film (yes, I've seen it), and Kurosawa has freely acknowledged his debt to Shakespeare in its creation. The fact that Kurosawa borrowed the plot from MacBeth doesn't make it any less of a film, it just means that he took inspiration from it.

Late in life, Kurosawa directed a film called "Ran," which in Japanese translates as "Chaos." But you could just have easily called it "King Lear" because once again Kurosawa took his inspiration for the film from The Immortal Bard's work.


Kurosawa was one of the greatest.Almost 90% of his films are around perfection.Not only because he made great stories.He is an example of filmmaking in any level.Luca$$ is mediocre in any level.

First of all, how about naming a few names nicholas28? What kind of teachers are they? English teachers? Film professors? Someone else? I'd like to see their credentials as well, because if they taught you, they obviously did a lousy job.

No silly! My point was that you dont believe me.Give that script to a profesional writer (not a blockbuster "100 novels a year" writer, a real one) and he will tell you the real value of that script.

In my opinion "Star Wars" is a modern-day equivalent of "The Odyssey" (Yes, I've read that too), and will stand the test of time throughout the ages. Long after everyone today is dust in the ground, the "Star Wars" series will continue to entertain people for many generations to come.

Thats an opinion on a future posibility, and I can argue the opposite.

Who knows? Maybe someday, somebody will do a film (or whatever media of the time) that was inspired by "Star Wars." Then some nobody like nicholas28 can smugly contend that its director (or the equivalent) just "stole" the idea from George Lucas, and chastise that person for daring to "steal" from a truly great director.

That can never happen, because Luca$$ is not a great director.
Its probably The Hidden Fortress the one who will be remembered.


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So you say nicolas28. But my contention is just the opposite. And because my writing creditentials are obviously much better than yours, I say that's the opinion that really counts here.

"Apology accepted, Captain Neider."

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You have all the right to like this movies, as a fly to love excrement, and fly over it everytime a dog takes a crap on the street.

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Yes, Nicolas28, that's just about the kind of response I expected from a no-talented, non-entity like you. Somebody who's always trying to clip wings, because he himself can't fly.

"Do not fail me again, Admiral"

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[deleted]

No, niolas28, I'm not going to use my "wings" to do that. Instead I use them for something much more constructive. Like writing newspaper and magazine articles, editorials, reviews, plays, scripts, and a number of other things. Sometimes, I even write articles exposing fools like you for what they are.

As far as your contention that "someone who claims this stupid movies can have something to be remembered for the years to come" well, I'm in good company. There are a lot of people -- professionals -- out there who feel the same way. And I, unlike you, can name names, something I've noticed you've constantly failed to do, despite your contentions.

"Only now, at the very end, do you fully comprehend the full power of the dark side of the force. Now you shall pay for your lack of vision!"

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Sometimes, I even write articles exposing fools like you for what they are.

So Star wars is great and Im a fool....who is the real fool? You! (I have to tell it, since you are a fool and cannot see it for yourself).

Instead I use them for something much more constructive.

Constructive for you only.Because if not you would waste your time flying around excrement.Who gave you a pulitzer?

There are a lot of people -- professionals -- out there who feel the same way.

And there are also lots of professional who dont talk bad because beetween bulls there are no hornes.
Are you saying that I have to listen someone in a known tv show, when they say this or that actor was great?? Dont you think will be very stupid for the producers to show them saying "oh my!!...this are the worst actors I worked with, they are a bunch of california surfers, with pretty faces and ugly talent, big muscles and small brains"??
Probably they say it, but the producers have those parts cut off from the aired show.

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While I think that Nicolas28 here could definitely use some remedial courses in hopes of reigniting the synapses that once connected his fingers to his writing talent, he has a point. Not a minor point, not something trivial that can be so flippanty tossed aside due to his verbal diarrhea, but something substantial. That point being: George Lucas is a thief.

One cannot deny after reading the original synopsis for the Star Wars plotline, that there is a distinct difference between homage derived parallels and a "copy and paste" style of writing. Lucas' original vision is nothing more than glorified plagarism, and should not be applauded or hailed as something unique. People say that there's nothing unique left in this world, no new forms of art to explore; nor new songs to be written that don't have familiar guitar riffs from rock operas long past. To be honest, that's true. It's incredibly difficult to create something truly original and "never been seen" when there's been over 28,000 years of artistic expression done by intelligent man, dating back to the caves of Lasceaux.

What DOES matter, is what people do with these parallels. I found a very interesting tidbit on artistic expression in the simplest of films recently, Ratatouille. A cherry is a cherry, we know this. Cheese is cheese, we know this too. You can pass neither off as your own. Mix them both together however, and you have a new and interesting flavor that could not have been acheived with either element alone. Lucas, unfortunately, cannot fall back on this excuse. It took YEARS of people rather publically goading him about his inspiration for the film until he finally said that the film was LOOSELY inspired by Kurosawa's works, and it wasn't until a while after that until he specifically cited The Hidden Fortress. The original synopsis is nothing more than a football jock's college thesis that needs to be done the night before finals are due. Paraphrase, slap some pretty stickers (in this case lasers and spaceships) and bam, it's "yours". Not so. We as aspiring artists or critics need to find the line that distinguishes the skeptic from the dreamy eyed yes man. That line that separates those who find depth in nothing and will grasp at straws to debunk someone's originality, and those who will accept Romeo & Juliet "reinvisioned" if you change their names to Jim Bob and Mary Sue and call it "Shotgun Wedding: A romantic comedy for two star crossed hillbillies".

As for Lucas. Yeah, Episode 4 was thieved. It's obvious, and anyone who blindly defends him on that is a tool. However, where did he get episode 5 and 6? Why focus ONLY on the core of it, and ignore the beauty of how he expanded this story and immersed us all into a universe that we as children all wished we lived in, to be the heroic jedi or the debonaire smuggler? We cannot take that away from him, he's too good at throwing his own credibility in the toilet by adding ewoks and midichlorions.

If we're going to ONLY bash on George Lucas and not present both sides of the story, then I demand a new thread be made to bash J.K. Rowling for some of her material being taken directly from Tolkien, especially the inexplicable parallels between Dumbledore and Gandalf. I don't see anyone doing that though.

Oh, and to end... for those of you that actually went and read the original SW synopsis... "Aura Spice"?!? Come on, blatant Dune reference anyone?

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[deleted]

and those who will accept Romeo & Juliet "reinvisioned" if you change their names to Jim Bob and Mary Sue and call it "Shotgun Wedding: A romantic comedy for two star crossed hillbillies".

You could have also used the names Tony and Maria and call it WEST SIDE STORY!

If we're going to ONLY bash on George Lucas and not present both sides of the story, then I demand a new thread be made to bash J.K. Rowling for some of her material being taken directly from Tolkien, especially the inexplicable parallels between Dumbledore and Gandalf. I don't see anyone doing that though.

Oh heck, the LOTR boards sometimes have threads claiming Lucas stole everything from Tolkien - R2-D2 and C3-PO = Merry and Pippen? Bingo, gotta be a match!!! Just some funny stuff over there.

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[deleted]

so based on your assessment of the situation:

one plus one equals three

is more correct than

un pluz 1 euelz too

typical internet bully logic.

"You only need matches and balls and I got those"

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''That can never happen, because Luca$$ is not a great director.
Its probably The Hidden Fortress the one who will be remembered.''

I think you will find that 30 years after star wars, hardly any of the general viewing public are aware of the connection between 'The hidden fortress' and 'Star Wars'.

More of the current generation will relate to star wars and will probably cite that as the definitive movie of its type, wrongly maybe, but the truth is that no matter how great a director Kurosawa was, the films he made will not be watched by as many of the movie goers as one would like.

The truth is, whatever your opinion on Star Wars and George Lucas is, Star Wars is a milestone in cinematic history and Lucas will forever be attributed and linked to that. He may have took inspiration from many films, books, etc, but it holds it on, 30 years on.

People still talk about it. Kids still enjoy it as much as the generation that first saw it. Its accessible, maybe not perfect by your standards, but by high percentage of the movie-goers, its a film thats 'unique' and great to watch.

It seems to me you fall into that 'i know great movies' trap. You sound like one of those people who try to be clever because they rate such and such movie. To me, people like to think like that are people that I find pretentious. They think they know better. But to be honest, its just an opinion and no more valid then anyone elses. Who really cares where the film originated, unless its a carbon copy, its only important how people enjoyed it.

Credit to the great directors of the past, but remember by them being there in the early parts of the movie industry, it gave them a chance to make a film like seven samaurai, or hidden fortress before a director in this era. Who's to say that if Hidden Fortress was not made, that someone today would not have made it?


"The internet is a great way to get on the net." - Bob Dole

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The point about "RAN" is invalid. While I understand your statement on the inspiration from King Lear, there was an interesting, true, story of a Japanese daimyo (sp) who split his kingdom. Hence the ending difference.

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"Throne of Blood" is a great film (yes, I've seen it), and Kurosawa has freely acknowledged his debt to Shakespeare in its creation."

Have you watched the feature on Criterion's edition of Hidden Fortress, where Lucas talks about the film? It's funny, because the way Lucas talks, you'd think the similarities in Star Wars and Hidden Fortress were coincidental. OH WAIT, maybe because Lucas tells you they are. What a liar. So by what you're saying, a good director will pay his debts and acknowledge the inspiration from other sources. Kurosawa seems to have done that. Did Lucas? Watch this feature on the Criterion disc.

And George Lucas is not a "truly great director". With him and Spielberg in bed together, they truly ruined mainstream films. They took the art out of filmmaking.

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The Criterion's edition of hidden fortress I think is misconstrued. Lucas does speak freely about his inspiration regarding Kurosara's "hidden fortress" stating that the shots, wipes, and Tahei & Matakishi were main elements.
Tahei & Matakishi were main for developing R2-D2 and C3PO as "Mutt and Jeff" components, while the wise Jedi who always was calm and had things under control in Rokurota Makabe spans all 6 movies. And gee, was an old friend who was a scarred and disenheartend main figure in setting them free and restoring order to the province? Hmmm, Anikin/Darth? Oh..did I mention saving a princess?
Nice thread, yet most have no inkling what they are talking about-including me.
The only one who knows George...is George!
RMV States that he has seen Throne of Blood, yet, has he seen Hidden fortress or a 30 second documentary on it? Inquiring minds know!

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Thanks for saying what I wanted to say, only better.

Siskel & Ebert once did a half hour show on the Star Wars trilogy in which they praised him for taking elements from THE SEARCHERS and BUCK ROGERS, LAUREL AND HARDY and SILENT RUNNING, and more. They credited him for knowing what he was doing. Just as they did later in a special on Tarantino.

You also mentioned THE ODYSSEY, which was remade as THE WARRIORS, and THE TEMPEST was remade as one of the first classic sci-fi films, FORBIDDEN PLANET.


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Just to clarify, WARRIORS was based on a story called ANABASIS, not THE ODYSSEY.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anabasis_(Xenophon)

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I think I have something to add to this. I haven't read everything in this thread, but I think this is new info.


Look here:
http://img140.imageshack.us/img140/3039/macquarrievaderuw8.gif


My second cousin (my claim to fame :P) is this guy Ralph McQuarrie. Basically he designed the look of Darth Vader, and he used Samurai war masks in his design. No doubt, he was aware of the similarities between Hidden Fortress and Star Wars, and perhaps Lucas directly instructed him to use samurai designs.

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[deleted]

I really thought for some seconds thrpugh the movie for Star Wars ( may be for the miss shots) and for Sergio Leone

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Cmarsh is clearly the only person with his head on straight. The fact remains that art influences other art. And the very fact that George Lucas FREELY ADMITS that he took ideas from Hidden Fortress to put into Star Wars, pretty well puts him off the hook. There's an old saying, "There's nothing new under the sun." People take ideas from other sources in order to make there own art. Cmarsh proved this point with his rather brilliant post about Shakespeare. Nobody craps on Kurusawa for taking ideas from Shakespeare, and nobody does that to Shakespeare for doing the same thing. I think all your posts are a little biased when you say that George Lucas is a thief, because you are clearly ignorant to the fact that Shakespeare and Kurusawa (and artists for generations!), have done the exact same thing. The only difference, is that you regard Shakespeare and Kurusawa as geniuses, and are not too fond of Lucas. Lucas is not a thief just because you don't like Star Wars. Face it lads, he revolutionized the Sci Fi genre, and changed cinema forever. Even if he did take some ideas from Kurusawa.

BTW, I love Kurusawa and Lucas. I'm not biased.

Good Night and Good Luck

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Hey, thanks for the kind words dynamitewalls. I kind of stepped back on this, because things just kept on going round and round, and getting nowhere, fast.

The question here seems to be what's the difference between inspiration and plagerism? And my answer is always the same -- I don't know. It's one of those things that makes lawyers rich lawyers.

One of my favorite examples in science fiction is the "Terminator" series. When "The Terminator" came out in 1984, James Cameron claimed he got the idea for the movie while recovering from a serious illness in Rome. He said that while suffering from a high fever, he imagined an image of a cyborg slowly standing up surrounded by a flaming inferno -- which was the start of the script and eventually became a scene in the movie.

But after "The Terminator" was released science fiction writer Harlan Ellison took Cameron to court for copywrite infringement, claiming the story was based on two of his stories from "The Outer Limits" -- "Soldier" and "Demon with a Glass Hand." I've seen both, and admit there's similiarities, but also can side with Cameron because also distinctive differences between those TV stories and the movie.

Ellison eventually settled out of court, and for a while a trailer at the end of "The Terminator" acknowledged his works. Then, after Cameron got more successful, that trailer disappeared. Something tells me Cameron gave in initially because he couldn't afford an extended legal fight, but becoming more finacially secure decided to remove the disclaimer, because he couldn't stand the thought of sharing credit with Ellison of what he considers his creation.

One more thing before I leave. One time I wrote a novel (never published) in which I had a character called "The Frost Queen." She wasn't a major character, but she was part of the plot -- the ruler of a group of people living in a northern climate who had adapted to extremely cold conditions.

Anyway, I let a friend of mine read the novel, and when I asked him about my "Frost Queen" character, he told she reminded him of "The Snow Queen" by Hans Christian Anderson.

I stopped dead in my tracks when I heard this. I had read the story, and although I hadn't even thought of it while writing my novel, I had to freely admit that yes indeed, there were similiarities in those two characters.

Oh well. That's the creative process for you.

Again, thanks for your support. I'll catch you on the flip side.

"The Force is my ally. And a powerful ally, it is."

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The question here seems to be what's the difference between inspiration and plagerism? And my answer is always the same -- I don't know. It's one of those things that makes lawyers rich lawyers.

Well, there is YOJIMBO and A FISTFULL OF DOLLARS. Sergio Leone redid movie, but without permission from Kurosawa and Toho. And of course, we know that this did go to court, and resulted in Kurosawa getting a percentage of the film's profits.

What Lucas did was take inspiration from many different sources and wielded them to form his own story. I actually get a kick when I see Kurosawa references in the SW movies or any other feature.

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Nicholas28, your an idiot! Kurosawa is just as derivative.

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"The question here seems to be what's the difference between inspiration and plagerism? And my answer is always the same -- I don't know."

Wow. I have known for some time now that this planet is wretched, but it still manages to surprise me to find out just how low it really is.

First of all, the difference is that one is written correctly, the other is an 'american typo'.

http://americantypo.site11.com/typos

Secondly, how stupid do you have to be not to know the difference?

PlagIArism (the middle part capitalized to make sure you see your errors) is taking something someone else has created and presenting it as your own work. Not unlawful, although might be illegal to some extent (but who cares about that, when only those who consent to it, have to obey the legal system, not others).

But it's clearly immoral, wrong, unethical, and although not STEALING (stealing is TAKING AWAY someone's possession without their consent - confiscation consequently means "taking unlawfully". When you COPY, the original thing is unharmed and the original owner still has it, so it is NOT STEALING).

However, if you use someone else's ideas and implement them together with your own ideas, and you DO NOT present it as fully your own work, but honestly tell where each part comes from, then it's obviously completely all right and ethical.

The thing is, in plagiarism, DECEIT is involved. It's a form of lying. It's like someone does a good deed and dies, and then you take credit for his deed. He doesn't probably suffer from your actions, but it's still LYING. Someone might not suffer much from your plagiarism, but it's still LYING.

With copying with honesty, you are not deceiving anyone - you are "on the level", as they say (but no one specifies which level, or which world.. <- a little video game humor). The audience will know exactly what they are getting, and everything is straight and good.

Now, inspiration is a completely different thing.

When you are inspired by someone else, your own thoughts, the Universe, beings who reside at the moment in higher planes (like your 'dead' cousin in the astral plane, or Extra-Terrestrial visitors from even higher planes), or just Existence itself, you are basically jump-started to create something unique, something your own.

I can't believe the number of people who are convinced that there's nothing new under the sun. And yet, when that was said originally, were there internet discussion forums? Did King Solomon write to IMDb and complain with bad grammar about someone not being 'proper' although he's only making a valid point? I don't think so.

If there can be IMDb boards, that were probably pretty close to "unimaginable" when that idiotic phrase was originally blurted out, there surely can be lots of things that would be just as close to "unimaginable" to us right now.

Although there has always been visionaries, people who have been able to see into the future and beyond the realm of the physical boredom, even they might not have been able to see with clarity and detail exactly what I am writing here right now, for example.

Of course things like computers have existed probably quadrillions of kvintillions or who knows how many years or millennia. Atlantis had them, the Extra-Terrestrial people, who simply live outside the boundaries of this wretched planet, of course had them before Atlantis, or even the previous 'civilization' even existed.

But there had to be a time when computers were new. And "under" some sun. Then again, what does "under the sun" really mean, when we are actually on a planet that's not really "under" or "over" anything, as absolute directions like that do not exist in space. If you put two spaceships on top of one another, but turn yourself 180° around (imagine an axis going through your stomach to better get what you mean, and then imagine yourself turning around that axis so that instead of being 'upward', your head is now pointing downwards) and then look at it, which spaceship is on top, and which is on the bottom? What if you put the spaceships together, so that their floors touch each other, and look at them from 90° angle to the left or right (using the same axis)? So we are really not "under" the sun, and Earth is not really "under" anything.

Does the original phrase imply that between solar systems there can be something new? I mean, if you look at nebulae, you'll notice they are not all the same, but every single one is different. Same goes for galaxies and stars, solar systems, planets and even people - and even as small scale as their fingerprints!

If two snowflakes are never the same, if two fingerprints are never the same, then isn't something new born _CONSTANTLY_, whether it's considered over or under the sun?

And did he mean the galactic sun, or just the sun of our solar system, and does this rule extend to other solar systems?

I think it's ridiculous to believe in such a limitation, such a nihilistic, grey and dull viewpoint that everything has been created and thus you can't create anything good that some hack wouldn't have already commercially exploited without actually being able to create anything himself.

I can create original stories (and have, but most of those are lost). So why couldn't anyone, who puts their soul (not mind) to it?

Inspiration is basically a form of CHANNELING, combined with the force of CREATION. Nothing could be created, if everything already existed. But creation keeps going on, and new things can be constantly created. Similarities may exist in certain limited situations, like on a physical planet, where there's limited resources and all, but if the creation of different flowers were left to Lucas and people who defend that hack by saying there are only limited number of stories in existence, we WOULD only have like 5 or 6 different flowers.

But instead, look at all that beautiful glory that the Creation has blessed Earth's fields and jungles with! Look at all that diversity - how many different flowers exist?

How many different species of plants or animals exist?

How many different stories exist? I hope you are starting to get the point. There is no reason that all that diversity that's so abundant and natural in the Universe, couldn't also extend to stories. All it requires is IMAGINATION.

Inspiration is something that you can use as fuel for imagination in the process of creation. An idea is what might start that inspiration, and that idea can be gotten by watching someone else's creation. Like, if you see a plane flying low and it looks pretty neat, you might get the idea of creating something similar, but with a spaceship and different kind of scenery, and then that might lead to your idea expanding with inspiration into imaginative creation! The end result would invariably be a mixture of expression of your finest self, inspiration from the Cosmos (that you channeled), your imagination, and bits of the original idea.

So there might be a resemblance, but there would also be a flavor of "you" in there, and your finest self would radiate from it in a very different 'aroma' than the original work, and you would probably have taken it to very different directions. That's not plagiarism, that's just getting inspired by an idea that was helped to get born by someone else's creation.

You might get such ideas also WITHOUT the help of other people's creations - people here seem to take it for granted or gospel truth that it's the only way to get inspired - to watch other people's works. Like, "art inspires other art".

I want to avoid the word "art" though, because it's so contaminated by all kinds of pompous fools who think they know what they are talking about. You know, the kind that bought the 'artwork' that someone critisizing the madness of the whole art scene by buying a toilet and gluing it sideways onto some platform or something and sarcastically calling it 'art'.

Anyways, it's nonsense to be so nihilistic and uncreative - it's just an excuse to be mentally lazy and plagiarize others to say "everything is created, there's nothing new". It's just lazy. There are ALWAYS possibilities for creating something new and unique.

And even if it's not "completely new", if it is an expression of your finest self, if it has definite 'your' flavor in it, and if you have been genuinely (not falsely) inspired while making it, it can still be good, and deserve to exist.

Look at Calvin&Hobbes. Nothing like that existed, before Watterson started creating it! If he had been like people on this board, he would either have modelled it after some other comic and it would look awful, or it couldn't even exist, because, you know, NOTHING NEW UNDER THE SUN and all.

But that WAS something new "under the sun", and even if that sentiment WAS true, it still wouldn't matter, because humans forget and die. I mean, if there were computers in Atlantis, it wouldn't matter during King Solomon's time, because the people would have forgotten about that, and then they died, and were reincarnated into times when computers exist again, and they would feel computers are a completely new thing!

(I am sure many people felt like that during the 70s and 80s, and mainstream during the 90s and 00s..)

There is ALWAYS something new. The question is, are you humble enough to receive inspiration from the Universe to be able to create it? The Creator is always creating, and a human being is also part of the Creator.

Btw, this is why the Creator can't FORCE things against human beings - it would be the same as you attacking your own body.. you would simply both suffer. We have the omnipotent(ial) inside of us, so even the Creator of the Universe can't completely overpower us - we are not something separate from It/Him. Then again, He is not much of an Omnipotent being if there is something He can't do.. but that's food for thought. Or aren't my posts 'original' enough, have they been written before by someone else? If so, I'd certainly be glad to read them, because most posts do not seem to resemble my posts AT ALL.

Which means that I shouldn't even be able to write any original posts, and so on.

Plenty of new 'under the sun', whatever that means.

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another apples vs oranges comparison.

both are great movies from very different genres and directed by very different kind of directors.

I personally enjoyed more The Hidden Fortress but surely most people out there prefers Star Wars.

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the thing i don't understand is, why some of the thread or board users cannot live with the fact that both movies can co exist without hurting the other. the hidden fortress was a japanese movie which was merely accessible for japanese people only! on the other hand we got star wars and take it as you wanted, as much as is a copy from the storyboard which was obviously a copy as well, we got nice sets and costumes munched together creating a tremendous atmosphere. lucas won the hearts of mostly because the sci-fi genre was still very exeprimental at the time and he created a totally new perspective for children and adults alike. western audiences can much easier identify themselves with a given sci-fi environment then with the japanese feudal age. i live in asia and i learned much about different cultures, so of course those movies are easier accessible then they were. japanese culture is quite hard to understand, if it is even possible for a westerner...usually i don't get all of it, that has nothing to do with intelligence. the way of thinking over there is jsut...different. so the movies are somehow more alien like then star wars, of course these movies are great, i love sanjuro and yojimbo in particular(excellent cast). give lucas credit for bringing the glory of those japanese masterpieces in a western format. if you tell me however that you fully understand japanese culture...i won't believe you ;-)

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I want to tak ebilly bob stapel that both movies co-exist is without hurting the other is not strong enough. I think it is great both co-exist. So what Lucas got some ideas for his film from Hidden Fortess. He freely admits it and also worked to some funding for Kurosawa in his later years. It shows globalization is positive in the long run.

I think one of the strength of Star Wars is that is combines some Eastern (bickering side kicks and the force thing sames a little like kung fu teachings.) and Western archtypes into one solid movie. The special effects was just icing on the cake.

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Being a life-long Star Wars fan, I've been aware for many years of The Hidden Fortress' influence on George Lucas' work on the original Star Wars film. Having seen the film for the first time on the IFC cable channel, I found great pleasure in finding a few of the obvious inspirations Lucas found here. I'd say the biggest one is how the film is told not from the point of view of the princess, or even the legendary general who acts as her protector, which would be the expected point of view and how most filmmakers would approach telling the story, but from the point of view of the two peasants. I've always liked how the original Star Wars trilogy was told through the eyes (so to speak) of the two droids, they are the ones telling the story. That was a great plot device that Lucas pulled from Hidden Fortress. Much like R2 and 3P0, the two peasants are often bickering with each other, and even split up with each other early in the film, and both get in trouble as a result! Of course both the peasants and droids act as comedic foils throughout the films.

A couple of other similiarities I noticed: the swipes leading one scene into another, which all the Star Wars films use. I don't believe Hidden Fortress invented that form, but I can't recall offhand other films that have used that either. Also, I noticed that General Makabe and General Tadokoro, the main villian presented on screen, had an epic sword duel, and when they'd face each other again later, Tadaokoro would be horribly scarred because of his failure from that duel. Much like Obi-Wan and Vader, where they dueled on Mustafar, and would meet again on the Death Star, Vader horribly scarred from their earlier duel. General Tadokoro would turn away from being an agent of evil at the end of the film, much like Vader would turn away from the same at the end of Return of the Jedi.

There's even a direct nod to The Hidden Fortress in Star Wars: when the Imperial agent is criticizing Darth Vader on the Death Star for not recovering the lost Death Star schematics, he gives that speech "Don't try to frighten us with your scorceror's ways, Lord Vader....", and just as he's saying "or given you clairvoyance to find the rebel's hidden fortress", Darth Vader begins to strangle him via the Force just as the Imperial agent is saying "hidden fortress".

All in all, I really enjoyed The Hidden Fortress, just a great film. Truthfully I may have never seen this gem of a movie if it weren't for the fact that I'm a die-hard Star Wars fan, and I wanted to see one of George Lucas' direct inspirations for the original film. Along with having seen The Seven Samurai recently, I can certainly see why George Lucas was so enamored with Akira Kurosawa's work.

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After just finishing the film, George Lucas got inspirations from The Hidden Fortess but that is it. The differences are huge in terms of the amount of time of the peasants (major characters) versus the droids (much less). This is not a Yojimbo/Fistful of Dollars situation here but just some inspiration.

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Originally, however, Lucas' first drafts were to have an old Jedi General helping a young princess escape from danger (a motif that we would see in THE PHANTOM MENACE, right down to both princesses traveling incognito!). Plus, they would be accompanied by the two droids (exactly like THE HIDDEN FORTRESS). Lucas eventually added Luke Skywalker and Han Solo to the mix adding a certain FLASH GORDON element (Lucas had wanted to remake FLASH GORDON, but Dino DeLaurentes had just bought the rights and eventually made his own movie in 1980).

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I haven't read what everyone else has said but I watched the Star Wars movies before this and I heard this greatly inspired Star Wars plus I'm a huge fan of Kurosawa so I checked it out and I have to say I loved this movie so much more than Star Wars, but I wouldn't have loved it so much if I hadn't seen Star Wars. This movie is closely followed by my favourite Kurosawa film, Seven Samurai.

"The world will look up and shout "save us"... and I'll whisper, no"
Yes, that's the movie quote.

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I probably think it nicolas28 graduates no High Schools.

It's alright to occasionally have grammatical errors, but he types like a 5 year old. If he really wants anyone to accept his argument from a standpoint of seriousness and some kind of educated opinion,(however, it seems that in his case this would not help) perhaps going to night school and taking a few English courses might help. Just a suggestion. I may not be the best typist but jeez!

However, Lucas did not write ep 5 and 6 by himself, he enlisted the wonderful Lawrence Kasdan who also was a major help on his other big film "Raiders of the Lost Ark". Although without Lucas, Ep 5 and 6 would not exist, so for him to have "borrowed" from already existing films and literature to make the first film is acceptable as a previous poster stated, filmmakers have been doing this since the beginning of filmmaking(well borrowing from literature anyway, followed by film later). If you did not know this than perhaps you should have looked before you leapt.

And to try and compare Kurosawa to Lucas is a ludicrous thing to do in any forum.
The reality is, Lucas has only directed 6 studio released films in his entire carer, that is if you count THX 1138(which essentially was a remake of his own student film). Kurosawa was a master filmmaker, craftsman, and great at getting great performances(look at his resume). Lucas however, has created some of the most beloved characters in film history and perhaps had a hand in changing how we see science fiction, but he's not much of a director(ie: his direction, FASTER, MORE INTENSE!) So to compare these two films as a whole is just about....um...insane. You can talk about the references Lucas takes from "The Hidden Fortress", but to try to put these two films in a ring and have them fight to the death, you're talking about facing off a spaceship against a samurai. Which is cooler, who can say?
One thing we can say is that AK was first, but they both "borrowed" from literature and film.
(Lucas from film, AK from literature)
So if you want to go blame someone for stealing, you can blame the authors of the novels and plays for stealing peoples lives if you want to get technical.
I bet their is some peasant woman turning in her grave right now saying, damn you Bill Shakes damn you!



"They're just like on a cow, but in a more stupid place."

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Hi,
To be honest I thoroughly enjoyed both films and acknowledge G.L.'s blatant "borrowing" of certain plot elements from Kurosawa... However he just borrowed, it wasn't a shot for shot remake... much like Yojimbo and A Fist Full Of Dollars. That being said, I'm glad G.L. borrowed from such a great director and film; it should be seen as both flattery and good taste. In fact, the first SW Trilogy was a breakthrough, that being said... the latest trilogy is a disgrace... and I think that's something we can all agree on.

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The latest SW trilogy is a disgrace, no, I disagree. Everyone has their own opinion, and I'll stick by mine. There's some flaws in Episode 1 and 2, but honestly I love the prequel trilogy, warts and all. For one, what other filmmaker has the audacity to show how a free democracy falls into a dictatorship, and most importantly, with the people's will behind it? As unbelievable as it is, it has happened several times throughout history, from Rome to Hitler and elsewhere, and within the SW universe it's shown brilliantly with Palpatine's rise to power, whether it's manipulating the Jedi Order, the corporations that have a grip on the Senate, the Senate itself, the citizens of the galaxy, and even the seduction of Anakin Skywalker, the Jedi with the greatest potential of any force-user ever known.

As I say, it all depends on one's own opinion, and if you didn't like the SW prequel trilogy, I'll do nothing to change your opinion, you're entitled to that. But my personal opinion is, Lucas had some flaws making Ep. 1 & 2 (Jar-Jar in 1, the flawed love story in 2), but for me there's way more to like than dislike. And for what it's worth, I think Revenge of the Sith is the lone prequel to match the quality of the Original Trilogy. ROTS is actually darker than even The Empire Strikes Back. Ultimately, I'm just expressing my own opinions here. But I'll stick by them. In the end, that's all in life that you have.

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Watched Hidden Fortress today! Brilliant film. I never liked Star Wars so I guess that raps it up cleanly.

Somebody here has been drinking and I'm sad to say it ain't me - Allan Francis Doyle

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An update: Now I really like Star Wars, HF is still much better though.

Somebody here has been drinking and I'm sad to say it ain't me - Allan Francis Doyle

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what I've noticed the most from watching Akira Kurosawa's 1950s samurai films is that the wipes he uses for scene transitions that Geogre Lucas used similar transition wipes on Star Wars.

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I just watched The Hidden Fortress for the first time today, and I ended up liking it even more than Star Wars, even though that's one of my favourite sci-fi/fantasy movies. The Hidden Fortress is now my second favourite Kurosawa movie after Seven Samurai.


"WHO THE HELL DO YOU THINK I AM???!!!!!"

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