First Time Viewing...


I'm 14 years old and a lot of people in my age group pretend to love Audrey Hepburn or Marilyn Monroe but never truly get into classic film. I am an exception. I just watched Sunset Boulevard for the first time last night and it was GREAT! My mom has always liked it but I've never gotten around to seeing it. I loved it. It's in my top five favorite movies. I just wanted to share that not all young people are so ignorant. (The ending of this movie was totally unexpected although it was there the whole time, you know? I can't explain it. But I loved it!)

“There are certain shades of limelight that can wreck a girl's complexion”
~Audrey Hepburn

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Keep watching kiddo, but watch with a modern eye so you can catch all the built in misogyny, racism, sexism, classism, etc., that was the norm in those days.

Even in Casablanca a grown black man is called a "boy" by the heroine. Today it is stomach churning but back then; not even on the radar!

Sunset is a film you watch through out your life and gather different meanings each time. I just caught something new the last time, and I have seen it over ten times.


“It is no measure of health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society.”

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Thanks. What are your favorite classics?

“There are certain shades of limelight that can wreck a girl's complexion”
~Audrey Hepburn

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I sent you a PM. Too many butt-in-skis around here.



“It is no measure of health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society.”

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Butt-in-skis? This is a public forum, not your private mail.

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Check out "Night of the Hunter"


Robert Mitchum


1955

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"... so you can catch all the built in misogyny, racism, sexism, classism, etc., that was the norm in those days."

I think your view of "the norm in those days" is somewhat distorted by the "norms" of today. The attitudes you cite existed then certainly, as they still do today, in the behaviours of "some" -- but they weren't necessarily "norms". A particularly annoying "norm" of today could be described, however, as an "obsession with", as opposed to an "awareness of", these attitudes which you've found appropriate to elevate by adding the exalting suffix -- "ism".

Btw, I, too, have seen this film over ten times and haven't yet seen the "misogyny", "racism", "sexism", "classism" (?), "etc." you seem to have seen, and which you perforce classify as "meanings".

When you watch "SB" the next time, may I recommend you focus on the more universal and eternal meanings in the film (those connected with the human heart) which were actually intended. Shed the "norms" of today, so called, for a couple of hours, and I think you'll find the film even more rewarding -- not to mention entertaining.

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Let me guess; you are white, straight and male?

I see you do not agree with me, but what worries me is how I will sleep at night knowing this fact.



“It is no measure of health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society.”

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[deleted]

Haha I laughed out loud at this (in an agreeing way)...

Take dead aim on the rich boys. Get them in the cross-hairs and take them down - Rushmore (1998)

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"by
cwente2» Wed Mar 31 2010 17:52:33
IMDb member since March 2004
Post Edited:Thu Apr 1 2010 05:40:02 "Let me guess; you are white, straight and male?"

Thanks. I rest my case.

P.S. -- When I have trouble sleeping, I think of a vodka martini with an anchove olive. . ."


Let me see... "white, straight, and male".
Here we have racism, heterophobia, and misandry.

Also, hypocrisy.

Certainly symptoms of the "norm" of a profoundly sick society.

You can't reason with such a one, but at least you called him on his behavior. Taking a stand against this sort of hatred is the best one can hope to do these days. And put him on ignore, that is...


P.S. Male pronouns used as generic to refer to unknown gender. I for one won't use plural pronouns to refer to a single individual. It's very bad grammar.

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Let me guess: full of yourself liberal? Sorry for the oxymoron.

I didn't bother reading most of the blatherings on here, but I did notice that you mentioned the movie shows racism. I just watched it and have no clue what you're talking about on that one. Hopefully, your point isn't embarrassingly insipid such as "there were no minorities in the film" (I personally don't remember seeing any, although I don't specifically go looking for them.)

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Wow, Piewackoff, you're an idiot. I hope the fifteen years since you wrote that post have contributed to your maturity.

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"I think your view of "the norm in those days" is somewhat distorted by the "norms" of today. The attitudes you cite existed then certainly, as they still do today, in the behaviours of "some" -- but they weren't necessarily "norms"."

Oh, really? Very transparent.

My word is my *beep* bond!
-I Love You Phillip Morris

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[deleted]

-"Even in Casablanca a grown black man is called a "boy" by the heroine.-

That wasn't a racial reference. Many grown men, regardless of race, were called "boy" if they were a waiter or the like IT HAPPENED ONE NIGHT has a scene where a white newspaper vender is called "boy".

Life, every now and then, behaves as though it had seen too many bad movies

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There is a long and fact based history in this country in using the word "boy" in a racialized context to demean, humiliate, and otherwise put adult black men in their place so to speak. To pick out one or even a few lone exceptions to the rule is to close one's eyes to history.

Throughout Casablanca, Dooley Wilson's character calls Rick "Mr. Rick" and "boss", while Rick calls Sam simply "Sam" and they are supposed to be best friends.
Sam is "the loyal negro" and only allowed in the club to perform, as all the other customers are white, and they are in Africa after all. This was standard practice in America at the time,especially in the segregated South, by state law and community standards. There is plenty of racism in that film, a film meant to garner support to fight one of the most fearful racists of all time, the Leader of Nazi Germany. It was released just after Pearl Harbor.

If you are 70 years old, you must have gone out of your way to ignore the racism in our history, and the ongoing racism we still have. We'll never solve it by ignoring it.


“It is no measure of health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society.”

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I don't know the history of the use of the term "boy", but in the 40's and 50's in Southern California, it was used especially for newsboys (both kids delivering on bicycles and those selling papers on streetcorners) shoeshine boys, and railway porters. Railway porters and shoeshine boys were often but not always black,

And I certainly didn't ignore the racism in the 40's and 50's. As a sophomor3e in high school in 1947 or '48, we had to write an essay disproving white superiority for English. I was myself a victim of prejudice when a couple of kids at a swimming pool were planning to beat me up because they mistook my speech defect as a German accent...this during the WWII years.

I can cite a lot more incidents of prejudice through the years, but more important was the efforts made in that time to eliminate prejudice.

Life, every now and then, behaves as though it had seen too many bad movies

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"I don't know the history of the use of the term "boy", but in the 40's and 50's in Southern California, it was used especially for newsboys (both kids delivering on bicycles and those selling papers on streetcorners) shoeshine boys, and railway porters."

I've heard of that term being used that way.

"I was myself a victim of prejudice when a couple of kids at a swimming pool were planning to beat me up because they mistook my speech defect as a German accent...this during the WWII years."

What happened? What made them change their minds?

----------------

Ellery Queen(Jim Hutton) = HOT & SEXY!
"Haaah?" *puts his hand on his head*

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There were just too many around, so they had no chance to corner me out of sight.

Life, every now and then, behaves as though it had seen too many bad movies

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Sam is called boy by a woman who has never been to the US, so I do not understand how she would even know US racial slights. As Sam was playing the piano, a few beautiful black woman were sitting near him at the piano, almost swooning over him. All of Rick's employees call him Mr. Rick, including Sasha and Carl, who are white.

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It's been thirteen years, Piewackoff, but if you're still around, go fuck yourself, moron.

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so you state that this film is full of racism, so we're waiting for examples, and then...you give an example of 'casablanca'???

ha but you got owned be cwenti2 :)

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[deleted]

OP of fifteen years ago, you're now twenty-nine, and I hope you didn't listen to the idiot Piewackoff. The way to watch old movies is to open your mind and immerse yourself in the time they were made, as much as you can. Viewing them "with a modern eye" is the way to distort, misinterpret, and spoil them. They weren't meant to be examined under a 21st century sociological woke microscope. To try to do so is to miss the point entirely. If you're lucky, you didn't allow this Piewackoff fool to lead you astray.

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Of course you're entitled to your opinion. However, I can't agree. "Misogynistic" (or, "mysogynic"), I think, means "woman hating" -- no more, no less. I find it a little hard to accept that any character in the film, or actor, or the director, writers, producers, etc. were haters of women. Norma's a very sympathetic figure "because" of her illness and "despite" her actions. Hardly the product of mysogynists. When "SB" was made, the roles in society of men and women were seen very differently than they are today (better or worse for society as a whole is a debatable point). In any case, mysogyny, IMO, figures in no part of the picture or its messages.

Btw, I think if the role of Norma had been written, mutatis mutandis, for a man, the messages of the film as well as its dramatic impact would have been much the same (though perhaps a little less sympathetically realized for Norma... ahhh, I mean Norman?). . . The essentially "unhealthy, whorish, psychotic, and self-destructive" elements you cite would, logically, have remained intact -- don't you think?

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if the role of Norma had been written, mutatis mutandis, for a man...

If the sexes were reversed...

You could still make a good movie out of it, but the "Norma" character would lose almost all her sympathetic qualities. "A Star Is Born" is a similar story: over-the-hill actor meets aspiring young actress. But he becomes weaker as the film goes on, and she gains strength. To have an older male character stalk and destroy a younger female character is just inherently distasteful, and it's partly because of the "balance of power" factor.

SB works because it plays on role reversal. In the Norma/Joe matchup, roles are reversed. Norma is old and fading, Joe is young and virile. He should have all the power in the relationship, but he doesn't - she does. If Norma were a man, he'd already be the powerful one in the relationship; where would the drama be? Norma and Joe are a much more even match: he SHOULD be able to resist her, he has enough qualities of his own, but she's an expert at this sort of game and she ends up with the advantage.

And because she's winning against the odds, we admire her, especially as we know that she can't win in the long run. We know all sorts of things she doesn't know: that Joe's in love with Betty, that the studio will never make her movie, that Max is secretly sending her fan mail to make her feel important. The odds are stacked way, way against her, yet she refuses to surrender gracefully. This is what makes her an interesting character and a sympathetic one. We can see how she came to be a star - she's not like everyone else, she's a determined, indefatigable fighter. It's like watching an over-the-hill prizefighter refusing to give up, even when his body can't take it anymore. It's inevitable, but we can't help but wish that it didn't have to happen.

Flat, drab passion meanders across the screen!

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I am so glad you loved it. I saw it for the first time today, and I loved it as well. Just out of interest, have you seen Some Like It Hot and Witness for the Prosecution, they are also from Billy Wilder and are just as great?





"Life after death is as improbable as sex after marriage"- Madeleine Kahn(CLUE, 1985)

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It's so funny you ask about Some Like it Hot because I'm watching it right now (I own it on DVD - must be my 20th viewing!) It's an amazing film. But I haven't seen Witness for the Prosecution, I must check it out. Thanks for the recommendation!

“There are certain shades of limelight that can wreck a girl's complexion”
~Audrey Hepburn

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Watching it for the first time (on rent dvd) and I know after fifteen minutes this will be amazing. I love the dry wit of classic Hollywood thrillers and comedies - this feels as good as The Big Sleep. No big studio movies today say this much in the subtext of what is said aloud.

At the audition I had to karaoke to "Smoke On The Water". I was 45. A very lonely experience.

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Don't forget Double Indemnity as well...

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See "Double Indemnity", another Billy Wilder masterpiece, one of the greatest examples of film noir ever made. There are so many great classic movies but it all depends on individual taste. Send me a PM if you want any more recomendations or just to talk about films.

"This is the west sir. When the legend becomes fact, print the legend."

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IN A LONELY PLACE is another film I would recommend. It also is a film about Hollywood and the film industry with Humphrey Bogart as a screen writer suspected of murder.

Life, every now and then, behaves as though it had seen too many bad movies

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All of what you mention is true. About the relationships being unhealthy. They are this way on purpose, because Billy Wilder is showing the world what a warped world Hollywood is, and how it warps the people there.


They live in an exagerated world where everyone uses everyone else. And in the end, they are all victims.

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Norma is not misogynistic (that word applies to men who hate women) but narcissistic, that is, completely absorbed in herself.

Norma and Joe's relationship is unhealthy for several reasons. For one thing, it's a love relationship only from her end. The scales are totally unbalanced; they share nothing but sex. She holds all the cards -- money, palace for them to live in, extravagant, handmade car; caviar, champagne, clothes, jewelry, etc. Joe is a "kept" man. He hates himself for it but is too weak to figure out a way to gain any self-respect. He hates himself for his weakness and laziness.

Norma is not a whore. She was married three times, and has lived in almost complete isolation for twenty years. There is clearly no love relationship between her and Max, although he still pines for her... she broke his heart and he's never gotten over it. It's safe to assume Joe is the first man Norma has taken for a bed partner in a long, long time.

Norma does become psychotic at the end, I believe, but until then she has been histrionic and to some degree a sociopath, because the feelings of others mean nothing to her. She talks about wanting to make Joe happy, but she really only wants to buy his loyalty because she has no idea how to have an ordinary love relationship.

Norma has always been self-destructive -- we learn that early on when Max shows Joe that there are no locks on any of the doors in the house. She is monumentally unstable... she's a Grand Guignol figure, a grotesque; which is why she remains fascinating.

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Very good analysis of the film ecjones, this is truly one of the great ones.

"This is the west sir. When the legend becomes fact, print the legend."

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While I love, adore and worship the film, I find the portrayal of Norma a bit misogynistic.

I would say that Norma's portrayal is tragic, not misogynistic. Through out the film she is shown to be an individual who has lost all touch with reality, drowning herself in memories of her past and photographs of her once youthful self. After all the years that she has been out of the business Norma still believes she has a chance. Yet Hollywood, the place she longs for does nothing but mock and manipulate her.

Even in the final scene, where I thought she might come back to reality, Norma stays ignorant to the seriousness of her siduation. The panning shot of Norma slowly walking down the stairs thinking that she is once again being appreciated for her acting talent as the cameras capture her self proclaimed return. When in truth the cameras are just filming her final fall from grace and society will not see what Norma views as a triumphant return, but the tragic decline of a woman in denial that will be the source of gossip amongst the Hollywood elite.

"I'd rather be hated for who I am, than loved for who I am not".

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There's a good deal of "Streetcar Named Desire" in "Sunset Boulevard", and a good deal of "Sunset ..." in "Streetcar ...".

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"Norma is an older woman that thinks highly of herself and falls in love with a younger man, however, it's all portrayed as unhealthy, whorish, psychotic and self-destructive."

It's not Norma's falling in love with a younger man that's portrayed as unhealthy, whorish, psychotic and self-destructive. It's her fantasy perception of herself as she was as a 25 year old star, her refusal to live in present reality which is unhealthy, psychotic, and self=destructive.

Life, every now and then, behaves as though it had seen too many bad movies

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"It's not Norma's falling in love with a younger man that's portrayed as unhealthy, whorish, psychotic and self-destructive."

Is there any movie out there which actually shows an much older woman - much younger man relationship in a positive light? Let's see what is out there:

-Sunset Blvd - the woman is a freak.
-The Graduate - the relationship isn't moral.
-Harold and Maude - I've heard that the guy is a weirdo. I don't want to see this movie.
-Something's Gotta Give - the older woman doesn't end up with the younger guy.(Move your mouse over the "spoiler" sign to see what I wrote there.)

Not a great choice, is there?

------------------------------------

Ellery Queen(Jim Hutton) = HOT & SEXY!
"Haaah?" *puts his hand on his head*

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One that I've just seen, THE LAST PICTURE SHOW, has an older woman, younger man relationship. Not sure you would say that it shows it in a positive light though.

Actually, it would be difficult to show that relationship in a positive light and have a story. My first wife was eight years older and for a while it was a positive relationship, but novody would be particularly interested in seeing a film version since there just wasn't any story value there.

Life, every now and then, behaves as though it had seen too many bad movies

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Don't want to forget Tennessee Williams. "The Roman Spring of Mrs. Stone" and "Streetcar ..." ("the boy" alluded to, not Stanley). Curiously, the troubled Vivien Leigh played both older women in the initial film versions. And, there is also from Williams "The Fugitive Kind" ("Orpheus Descending") with Brando and Magnani.

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Your post actually made me smile . I am so happy to see a younger person here who can apprieciate a great film like Sunset Boulevard!

I introduced my own children to the greats many years ago. They, in turn, have introduced me to a few that I'd never heard of!

What makes me really smile is your signiture!....“There are certain shades of limelight that can wreck a girl's complexion”
~Audrey Hepburn

That is from my all time favorite film! From such a young person such as yourself, This makes me happy and it gives me great hope for the future. Imagine someone your age who can enjoy these wonderful films!


Pardon me for overhearing. My ear was pressed against the door.

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Can i join the happy crew? I'm 23 :-)

I, am however, allergic to the trend of anything being made before 1950 being elevated far above anything more recent. To me a just like with a book, it's irrelevant when a movie or TV show was made. If it's good, it stays good. If it's bad, age won't make it better. I'm sure Hollywood churned out 90% trash before 1950 just like it does today and just like it will in 50 years.

I'm a fan of Bily Wilder movies - they seemed to have aged extremely well. Some Like it Hot is the greatest American comedy ever made IMO and that's coming from someone who can't stand modern American comedy.

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