What is the appeal of this film? - Meshes of the Afternoon Discussion

[–] mthqb11 17 years ago

i agree with you. I didnt understand a single thing about this film. I want to know why it has an 8 rating.

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[–] sunheadbowed 9 years ago

Must you understand everything? Life itself is beyond understanding, and art imitates life. Either you felt something when you watched, or you did not; if you did not, then it wasn't for you.

It's a beautiful film.

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[–] peapulation 17 years ago

You are forgetting one thing. In order to having a judging a film you have to understand it or at least have an idea, no matter how shallow. Your post is pretty futile. I think that the meaning is nightmares suck, very simply. I advise you never watch David Lynch and spare people like me having to tell you people off.

"People like him have something inside. Something to do with death."
Once Upon a Time in the West

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[–] venestiose 17 years ago

You are forgetting one thing. This 'film' sucked worse than a 3 dollar whore on her first day on the job. Your post is pretty ridiculous. Nightmares suck? My dog has thrown up better interpretations than that. I think the meaning is don't let cracked out artsy fartsy college drop outs anywhere near a video camera or out of the house for that matter. Ooooh I put a broken mirror in my film, its spiritual! I'm glad that mirror-faced burglar slit that b*tch's throat and ended this crapfest.

Love, Tim Sullivan

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[–] ads4646 17 years ago

I am with the majority of posters here - I think this film was a lot of crap. I could easily interpret anything I want into this and I could also make an equally random film full of "symbolic" images. Boo. 2 thumbs down.

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[–] peapulation 17 years ago

I think you people are pretty narrow minded to think this film is basic experimantal crap. By the way, my review of the film up there was at its most simplistic.

I think I understand why you people don't like experimental cinema. It's because it's not your straight forward average movie. You see it as an obtuse piece of *beep* that means nothing but a collage meaningless scenes signifying an excuse for intellectual people to boast about their interpretation of arts. Well let me tell you folks that just because a film doesn't have a clear beginning, a spine and an end doesn't mean that this film is a piece of worthless crap. Having said that, there is experimental cinema that isn't worth a crap. But it seems you people just can't tell the difference between good and bad cinema and go about judging movies with your own tastes. Cinematic appreciation is something you people don't understand.

As well as that, I think you people are the same people that would think of Zelig a film about a chameleon-man, rather than see what is behind the plot.

"People like him have something inside. Something to do with death."
Once Upon a Time in the West

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[–] cartnad111 17 years ago

I mean, if you don't understand why this film is so great, you should not be in film school. You get it or you don't, simple as that. And by getting it, I don't mean understanding if there is a plot or what it is trying to say. It is just a matter of knowledge about cinema, its mechanics, innerworking etc. Too bad you don't get it

"what’s the definition of a neoconservative? A liberal who’s just been mugged"-Stanley Kubrick

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[–] 17 years ago

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[–] cartnad111 17 years ago

I know I was a bit condescending, and I apologize.
However, I think that people should at least have an understanding of cinema before getting in film school.
If you are not interested in film in a more higher level, why should you go to film school anyways?
The average viewer does not necessarily have to like or understand a film like meshes (although he might be interested and there is no problem with that) however, the film school student should have more knowledge than the average person, such as any professional in their field of expertise.

"what’s the definition of a neoconservative? A liberal who’s just been mugged"-Stanley Kubrick

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[–] joshuayeary 17 years ago

Cinematic appreciation is something you people don't understand.

I like this point, and it's a point I've felt for a long time without realization. I've always argued with people about the enjoyment of even an admittedly bad film, and now I know why. If they didn't like it, that's the end of the story. If I didn't like it, I still try to give some credit in some way, whether it be filming style, charactor development, etc.

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[–] peapulation 17 years ago

i apologise for the long reply, but i stick with what I said.

"People like him have something inside. Something to do with death."
Once Upon a Time in the West

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[–] Monsieur_Arkadin 13 years ago

don't let cracked out artsy fartsy college drop outs anywhere near a video camera

Oh remember those digital video cameras that they used to sell in 1943? They were so big, clunky and expensive. One might as well have been shooting on film.

Jack White killed a man with his bare hands.... While singing and playing guitar.

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[–] hypersquared 13 years ago

This is avant garde filmmaking. Not everyone's going to be into it. Just like not everyone is into beets, or football, or jazz.

There's no point in talking about what people "get" and "don't get." Nor is there any point in dismissing as "crap" a film that's been around for nearly 70 years now, and has not only survived but accrues new fans with each generation. It has persisted in the culture on its merits.

The first time you see something like Meshes (or anything by Stan Brakhage, or Kenneth Anger, or Ken Jacobs), you'll either be intrigued and seek out more, probably expanding your own tastes along the way; or you'll find that it isn't your thing, and you'll go do something else. Either way, it's cool.

If anyone wants to know what I like about it, it's that the images and scenarios do make sense to me in how they interact with my subconscious. On a purely intuitive level, I understand the associations that Deren and Hammid draw between their symbols. That isn't true of all Surrealist cinema for me, and almost by definition, it's deeply personal, so it won't be true for every person who sees this film.

Above all, Meshes has an excellent use of form, tempo, composition, and some really cool low-budget camera trickery.

If you don't like experimental films, just go watch something else. No point in starting a debate that will always come down to the (perceived) art snobs vs. the (perceived) philistines.

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[–] activista 11 years ago

@venstiose

Whatever,troll. We get it,you didn't like it. But it's 79 years old Exactly what the hell did you think it was going to be like? You're not cool because you sit here and take a bunch of s*** about a film,you sound like some high school teen trying to come off us cool in front of your friends. Mow go crawl back into your doghouse and whine/the hell back.

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[–] franzkabuki 13 years ago

"The meaning is nightmares suck, very simply".

And this coming after the pompous lecture about one needing to understand the film before judging it... pretty amazing. Guess I´m gonna have to tell you off now.

"facts are stupid things" - Ronald Reagan

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[–] bigredrecondog 17 years ago

Most Americans are conditioned to the factory made, cookie cutter Hollywood style of movie making. No fault,it's what we've grown up with and have come to expect when we plunk down our seven bucks and sit in a darkened room to be entertained for a couple of hours. We want a happy ending, boy gets girl, good guy wins and democracy is saved once again. We see movies as a representation of life as we would like it to be. They are, however, no more realistic that experimental and art films. Experimental films, like Meshes, open our eyes to a world beyond the Hollywood system and challenge us to view film as a more than the story of some comic book heroes presented on celluloid. When watching experimental movies, one must step out side the preconceived notion of what Hollywood tells us is correct cinema and try to understand what the filmmaker is saying. Meshes is a brutally strong feminist film that takes an unabashed swipe at domestic violence and the trap that abused women find themselves in. It portrays the only ways out as leaving the relationship (the key) or death (the knife). The does the flower represent love, a feeble apology, or a funeral? Interesting to note that the faceless figure shrouded in the grim reaper like cape was actually Deren's husband. Beyond the message in the Meshes, one can appreciated Deren's directing and editing skills and camera work. Deren was also a classically trained ballet dancer, and she was an absolute delight to watch on film.
Don't get me wrong. I love Hollywood films, everything from early Chaplin Silents to today's blockbusters, but every so often I need something that I just need to puzzle over for a while.

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[–] peapulation 17 years ago

Completely agree with you, bigred. And I think the people that went against Mshes are probably biting their tongue hard.

"People like him have something inside. Something to do with death."
Once Upon a Time in the West

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[–] joshuayeary 17 years ago

I haven't seen this yet, and I am not completely sure I am going to, it's still up in the air. But what I can't stand about this thread is that the people who do like it assume that the people who don't only like big budget summer blockbuster hits with a typical hollywood ending. That's simply not true. I love "weird" movies, or so they are labeled by many. I love David Lynch. I love Jan Svankmajer. I love Jim Jarmusch. I love a lot of movies that frustrate a lot of people, or at least ones that many people just don't get. But that doesn't mean anybody who lives in the collegy part of town and hangs out at the hip coffee shop can make a film. People are so quick to defend these types of films because they feel like it represents their side of the battle against Hollywood. Maybe it does, maybe it doesn't, but it takes more than that to make it a good movie. I didn't like Fantastic Four (the movie) because the lines were cheezy, the graphics were over the top, and it was all-in-all unsatisfying. I did like Transformers, because I feel that it was simply well done. On the flip side, I didn't like Broken Flowers because for the enviroment around the charactors and the subject at hand I thought the darkness of the film and Murray's "blah" attitude throughout didn't fit. I did though like Stranger Than Paradise because the same mood was protrayed (almost), but it fit with the life they were living and was somewhat relatable, even if not directly. My point? It's like Charlie Parker said concerning music, "There are two types of music; good music, and bad music." I feel the same applies with movies. Whether budgeted by Hollywood executives or by the art department of a state college, a movie still has the chance to be really good, or really bad. So while I have yet to see this film, when I do, I plan to judge it on the actual merits of the film. And if there is deep meaning behind it, but it fails to convey these, then I will consider this a failure. Not because "mainstream media" has persuaded me not to like it, but because I will simply feel that it didn't do what it set out to do. But then again, I may like it. :)

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[–] praecept0r 17 years ago

very well put, particularly the hollywood bit!

To the original poster of the question -
hope is not lost, the fact that you inquire about this inordinate film means that the hope remains. It takes a serious time and effort to liberate and expand the mind pre-conditioned by mass culture & commercialism. I believe that the lack of general education and critical thinking can be corrected sometimes.
What you saw is not a very complicated subject, really. Perhaps reading more on surrealism, its philosophy, looking at some art forms, understanding the historical contexts, and the movement's place in art history would do some good. Then try to watch this film again.
On the other hand, it may be too late to learn to think differently.
Good luck!

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[–] Jane_Doe01 16 years ago

Bullsh** thread filled with bullsh** comments from arrogant self-back patting twats. How very IMDB.

Most Americans are conditioned to the factory made, cookie cutter Hollywood style of movie making. No fault,it's what we've grown up with and have come to expect when we plunk down our seven bucks and sit in a darkened room to be entertained for a couple of hours.

Hey! Don't forget to shut off the candles in the shrine set-up in your bedroom dedicated to yourself.

Meshes is a brutally strong feminist film that takes an unabashed swipe at domestic violence and the trap that abused women find themselves in.

Sounds like self-fulfilling, self-interested nonsense. No official descriptions I've read for this movie have mentioned anything to do with the abuse or "female oppression" themes several IMDBers have suggested here. DV hysteria didn't even exist in the early 1940s. By the way, this project is also said to more largely belong to Alexander Hammid, the male of the directing team, than Maya Deren. Were any of you even aware of that? If a man had directed the same exact movie, would you all still be pushing your feminist theories?

Don't get me wrong. I love Hollywood films

"Oh don't get me wrong, American mainstream movies be fun, if fluffy and completely substanceless, silly little movies that I can enjoy as a matter of guilty pleasure. But really guys, expand your feeble little American hillbilly minds and watch some better and more serious films, i.e. anything not in the American mainstream so that you can at least come close to measuring up to the extremely small elite of American sophisticates like myself. *takes sip from $30 latte*

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[–] 16 years ago

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[–] filmluvr81 15 years ago

First off...to the poster who is still "up in the air" about seeing this, it's 14 minutes long! You can skip an episode the Big Bang Theory and watch this and still have time to microwave a Lean Cuisine! :) Anyway, I can see both sides of this argument that's developed...yes, it's an artsy-fartsy film, and I think mostly it's famous BECAUSE it's hard to understand and "out there," and small, and mostly unheard of in most circles....and mostly film snobs are the ones that enjoy it...but that's ok, because that's how most pieces of art are...why else is Picasso so famous? Because it takes a lot of interpretation to "get" something out of it...this film reminds me of the Yellow Wallpaper short story by I forgot who(read it like 6 years ago in college)...it's about a woman who is pretty much forced to stay in a yellow wallpapered room because everyone believes she's sick...when in reality she's not...Eventually, she goes a little bonkers, seeing herself outside in the garden walking around, and she tears at the wallpaper until there's almost none of it left...it too was a feminist short story, and this film reminded me of it A LOT...

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[–] 15 years ago

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[–] The_Dying_Flutchman 13 years ago

It is vout; you are out; O'reenie...

Whole sight; or all the rest is desolation.

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[–] activista 11 years ago

"

Most Americans are conditioned to the factory made, cookie cutter Hollywood style of movie making. No fault,it's what we've grown up with and have come to expect when we plunk down our seven bucks and sit in a darkened room to be entertained for a couple of hours. We want a happy ending, boy gets girl, good guy wins and democracy is saved once again. We see movies as a representation of life as we would like it to be. They are, however, no more realistic that experimental and art films. Experimental films, like Meshes, open our eyes to a world beyond the Hollywood system and challenge us to view film as a more than the story of some comic book heroes presented on celluloid.

"

Thank you---that is SO true! I like this film because it not only plucked at my memory strings, it's basically like a poetic dream or nightmare shot on film. I love watching experimental films from the 20's thru the 40's, because they're just plain weird and plain fun to watch. Even though MITA is 70 years old now,it has a surprisingly modern feel to it---as if its very existence is out of place,out of time. That's why I enjoyed watching it. But I also love experimental films from any era, including the present, of course. I like them because they're unpredictable and not boring and tired like a lot of Hollywood films. (Not all Hollywood films---I've seen too many great Hollywood films to write them completely off.) But,to each their own went it comes to these kinds of off-the-beaten path films.

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[–] PopperTheKungFu-Dragon 13 years ago

Thank you Scenic. Your post was very enlightening.

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[–] 13 years ago

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[–] calcaylor 13 years ago

I found this film mystifying, seemingly filled with unconnected, random imagery. I don't know if this was truly what the filmmaker wanted to convey but part of IMDB user ShellyShock's review shared a couple of good perspectives.

"Laden with symbolic imagery, this short film focuses on the struggle of a woman to find her identity independent of men, emotional baggage and societal expectations. Constantly chased by a doppelganger, Maya is confronted with the many aspects of herself at the dinner table. One of her personalities must commit murder to free her."

I wouldn't say I would agree with all that but it did get me thinking of some of the messages I think the filmmaker was trying to convey. But that is the beauty of a work like this: it challenges us and makes us ask questions. The SEARCH for answers is one of the Answers to Life because it fuels our need to grow, to invent, to explore, to be re-made. Picasso pointed to this when he said, "Computers are useless. They can only give you answers." The questions are more important

.*´¨¨)
¸.•´¸.•*´¨)
(¸.•´ Think heavenly, act locally...

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[–] Chytilova 12 years ago

Is there a cryptic message hidden in the film that the director is trying to convey, or is it simply just random (or "surreal") imagery?

It doesn't matter either way. You either got a meaning out of it or you didn't. You are not required to extract a meaning. There are plenty of great shorts with obviously no hidden meaning that just have beautiful imagery. Sometimes that's enough for me.

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[–] 11 years ago

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