AN INSULT TO WALES! - How Green Was My Valley (1942) Discussion

[–] 18 years ago

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[–] bigkingtut2000 18 years ago

Mr Ford had a stock company of actors, Irish actors. The film was shot in California but originally was supposed to be filmed overseas, in Wales. But, if you note when the film was made...1941, England was in the middle of the Battle of Britain and shooting could not take place there. In fact, Roddy McDowell was in the USA from England due to the war with his mother and family. Perhaps, knowing something about the film and why might take the sting out of your bruised persona. I assure they were going to shoot the film in Wales, a four hour, color, epic, but because of the war that couldnt be done. Hence the black and white film to cover up the California countryside and make it seem/appear like the lush green valley.

Is this the face that wrecked 1000 ships and burned the towerless tops of Illium?

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[–] al_iguana_23 17 years ago

yeah. With the benefit of hindsight, this film is twee, the accents terrible, the interiors look like good proper Irish cottages, and any similarity to the streets of the Rhondda is purely co-incidental ;)

Saying that... for an Hollywood production, filmed on a very limited budget during the dark days of WWII, they did a fair job of it. Of course, its the story that is important, not the eye-candy. It is a powerful and moving film. A remake would be awesome, filmed on location, with all-Welsh cast (remember, that when these Valley towns were set up all the incomers spoke Welsh, with the exception of probably the parson, the Irish diggers and Italian cafe owners, so the modern Valley Wenglish accent didn't exist back then)

My issue with it, isn't the movie, the cast, the accents or the singing. Its the fact that it set a benchmark - this portrait IS Wales to the rest of the world. We don't live like that, never did. An authentic remake is definitely needed (although they'll have Photoshop out the modern aluminium industrial-estates and graffiti and put the pits and grime back in).

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[–] bigkingtut2000 17 years ago

I certainly can understand your position. You mean you don't sing to an fro work anymore? I started doing it and got locked up..lol. Seriously, it is ashame that the movie was made on a Hollywood backlot and not the grand spector it was envisioned to be by Darryl Zanuck...on a larger scale than Gone With The Wind. I think Wm Wellman was first choice to direct. Tyrone Powers was going to be the grown up Huw. But, still after all that being said, it was more about the human condition and family which is a universal story and ageless.

I have watched some classic films and what NEVER ages are stories about life and human frailties. A movie like 'M' which is almost if not 80 years old, is as good today as when first viewed, because it isn't about computer graphics its about the mind and it's values. That is why HGWMV is also timeless. It's not about mines or Wales as much it is about the family unit disentegrating and why. I don't believe sing to and fro work. Nor, is it a tour guide of Wales, it is about people and their problems.

All that being said, I wonder how great that film would have been shot on location and with the budget envisioned? Probably talking about the greatest film ever made!

Is this the face that wrecked 1000 ships and burned the towerless tops of Illium?

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[–] NapoleonX 17 years ago

The problem with not speaking in a Welsh Accent is the fact that the script was adapted from the book written by a Welshman. This means that much of the script only sounds authentic when spoken in a Welsh metre and rhythm. I'm Welsh, an actor and currently in the middle of this film, although I can appreciate the film on it's own merits, it is physically painful to listen to the script being torn apart by differing accents.

Welsh is not just a different language to English, it has a completely different rhythm and metre to it, and this is true of English spoken in a Welsh accent, it's completely different to English in almost any other accent. It is said that Welsh Actors are great Shakespearians because the Middle English of Shakespeare is closer to the Modern Welsh accent than it is to Modern English. The rhythm is what is beautiful about Welsh, just as it is beautiful in Shakespeare and is what lends itself to so many great Welsh Songs and Hymns. So the dialog in How Green is not just about Wales, it is, to all intents and purposes, written in Welsh. Trying to watch these actors struggle to fit the rhythm to an Irish or God forbid even American accents turns them all into cardboard, especially the brothers, witness the scene where they decide to form a union and go on strike against their father's wishes, the words do not fit in their mouths, stirring as they are, they simply make the actors look bad because there is no way you can say those words properly to the rhythm they demand without it being in a Welsh accent. Simply does not work. The gulf between the script, where it is taken from the original work, and the spoken American rhythm is so wide that it completely destroys any credibility or belief in the acting. For a Welshman anyway. As I say, the story/direction is fine, a bit too mawkish for modern day tastes but to sit there and listen to beautiful language butchered by foreign tongues is something that is hard for any Welshman or woman to take. Wales is perhaps the only country in the world that is almost completely defined by its language and so for us it has to be perfect.

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[–] bigkingtut2000 17 years ago

I certainly can understand your feelings about this movie. I listen to foreigners trying to speak in our southern dialects and it is not only murderous but distracting and I am quite certain that HAS to be the same to the Welsh. I think though you have to consider that it took a herculaneon effort by Zanuck just to get the movie made and the cost and war being a real issue. That Ford and his Stock Company were not the initial choice of Zanuck to bring this story to film but more he was the best suited for what they could afford to do...this movie was going to rival Gone With The Wind, in Zanuck's initial presentation. They WERE going to shoot it in Wales, with Welsh casts but the war just precluded that all from happening...I do fully understand your thoughts on this matter.

Suppose you were an idiot,suppose you were a member of Congress, But I repeat myself-Mark Twain

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[–] xerses13 17 years ago

There was no insult ever intended. Due to war conditions (WWII) it was impossible to film HOW GREEN WAS MY VALLEY as originally conceived. Four (4) hours long in Three (3) Strip TechniColor and on location. A much grander project then the completed film and more inclusive of the books storyline. Though we feel the final effort is a classic.

Getting actors with a strong Welsh backround would have been near to impossible in these conditions. The Welsh did not come over to this country in anywhere near the numbers of say the English, Germans and Irish. So they quickly adapted and intermarried with other immigrants from various European countries. My Paternal GrandFather was Welsh coming over to this country (U.S.A.) prior to WWI (in which he served) postwar he married a immigrant from Sweden. Same thing with my Maternal GrandMother coming over in 1919 from Poland ended up by being married to a German (ie Austrian).

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[–] bigkingtut2000 17 years ago

I think that is the whole point, it wasn't a deliberate snub, it was just the situation the studio was in with the war, the finances to get the movie done. Zanuck had to pick a director that could the project done, who was a great storyteller...on budget...voilas...John Ford and his Ford Casting Ensemble...Irish unfortunately.

Suppose you were an idiot,suppose you were a member of Congress, But I repeat myself-Mark Twain

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[–] xerses13 17 years ago

Well said, some of these commentators have a unrealistic veiw of what film making was like from 1930 to 1950. They let 21st Century feelings get in the way of reality.

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[–] purplerustling 17 years ago

..what was being said if it was in Welch? They are far more important things to obsess about rather than accents in a film that was made so long ago. But I'm glad you vented.

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[–] angharad83 17 years ago

NapoleonX - yours is the only valuable comment on this discussion so far! I commend you

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[–] film-collector 13 years ago

NapoleonX, when in school, we were taught this lesson under the ruling of "iambic pentametor". Is that what you are trying to convey? It would seem to make sense.

In defense of the film, just how many Welsh actors WHERE there in all of Hollywood in 1940, let alone at 20th Century Fox? Also, as others have hinted upon, HGWMV was a story about the strenght and importance of the family in this period of Welsh history. NOT a history of the Welsh dialect.

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[–] 17 years ago

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[–] HawksRevenge 17 years ago

Wales is an insult!!, what a toilet!! and a dirty one at that!! this movie was researched meticulously and is 100% accurate and only a fool wouldn't see that

Try harder next time purile to get your point across, because I just don't see how you are an expert in english dialog, what a turkey!!

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[–] Fingaroo 17 years ago

Wales is an insult!!, what a toilet!! and a dirty one at that!!

Now that is a much better insult to Wales than the movie was!

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[–] yarborough 17 years ago

Ditto with geo-uk, but what is also infuriating to me is that all of the main actors in this film are either English or Irish. What? Were there no such things as Welsh actors back then?

This film simply provided John Ford yet another opportunity to showcase his love of the Irish.

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[–] aciolino 17 years ago

It never fails to shock and amaze me: the amount of stupidity there is in this world.

I do not wish to tell you what you should or should not be offended by. I would not like to be told that either. If you are offended by this film, then I must respect that.

Now, for a little perpective: THIS IS AN AMERICAN FILM. USING ACTORS UNDER CONTRACT TO THE STUDIO. If they wished to use an all-Welsh cast, then they would have had to break union rules, or gone to Wales and filmed it there which has already been shown to be impossible.

So the accents are poorly done. How many AMERICANS would know that? Did you ever see "The Good Earth"? For God sake, they were Chinese peasants speaking bad English? How insulting is that? But what are you gonna do? Hire all Chinese cast and use sub-titles. Yeah that would be great for a CHINESE PRODUCTION!!!!

It is a shame that you can't look (or listen) past the accents to appreciate the extraordinary ensemble acting, the direction, the photography, music, etc, etc, etc. But I understand that if the accents are so ingratiating, its tough to look past it. The film is a masterpiece.

By the way, reading the novel gave me a deep love and appreciation for Welsh culture. And you know, I didn't hear ONE authentic Welsh accent.

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[–] daniel-harris87 17 years ago

Yes the accents in the film are quite annoying but there was a very small pool of Welsh actors back then and still today its hard to find a decent one.
Having not read the book I can only comment on the movie. To me it presented a very romanticist portrayal of Wales. A Hollywood version of the Valleys. How many miners do you know who can sing in harmony's after a long day underground? Why would there be a pit at the top of a hill? Unless its open cast mining then the easiest way is to start at the bottom of the Valley.

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[–] Abe_Raman 16 years ago

"How many miners do you know who can sing in harmony's after a long day underground?"

Er, Welsh ones of the period the film depicts. That's what they did.

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[–] aciolino 15 years ago

Rather a stupid, ill-informed question.

To be replied by a logical one: How many MINERS do you know?

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[–] gayspiritwarrior 17 years ago

This thread is utter rot. If the Irisb director and his American, English AND WELSH actors had set out deliberately to insult Wales, why wouldn't they simply have stolen the story and reset it in Ireland or the early San Fernando Valley? No, they made a movie of a book by a Welshman about his youth in a small town in Wales as well as they could, a story of humans, regardless of where they were or what accent flavored their words. If accent means so very much to you, why don't you just go sit in a class where Welsh is being taught and leave works of art to those who want to find the good in them their creators intended. Your zealous whining does nothing to ennoble mankind, only to drag it down.

"The value of an idea has nothing to do with the honesty of the man expressing it."--Oscar Wilde

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[–] bunney_2k2 17 years ago

haha well then if u do ur research you'll find that John Ford(wanker) wanted to set this movie in ireland but wasn't able to!he took his opportunity on doing sumthin tha added to his countrys status by puttin the irish actors in the film instead of seekin out actual people from the vallys or wales even tha cud of betrayed these characters.instead he hires an half ass irish, half ass english cast! hes a proper Prick and i cant stand his methods.not only that he didnt even have the common decence to try n help these actors learn the welsh vally dialect, which if done wud of at least put harmony in the welsh ppl's minds! its easy to spot his motive on why he made this film the way he did and when he did! he deserves no respect from me and wont get it.Ok ye the films is intresting but for ppl who live outside wales or the valleys!the depiction is quite wrong, easiest spotted is the whole mining scope! a mine on top of a hill?????? WTF! I Am From the valleys and still live here, the story of this movie is set in gilfach goch, bout 10 minutes from were i live and am quite sad to say that irish immirgration was not at a high state in those days espically this deep into the country, proven by my grand parents whom have grown up here and died here and they vouched for this wen i got the pleasure of watchin this film with them years bk!, so people please people dont argue on reason y this movie was made the way it was, its perfectly clear why it was made the way it was! the directors love of his own country which led to depiction of movie being completly bollox even when the director used to tell ppl he was sum what of a perfectionist!
sori for rambling but i dun care so fuuuk u lol

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[–] aciolino 17 years ago

Pardon?

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[–] catey-49 11 years ago

Welsh folk have a love of language, spoken and written. Your rambling, mis-spelled (in SO many places) badly punctuated rant would offend any literate Welshman. Just go back and read it if you doubt me.

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[–] ethereal_tb 16 years ago

You know, a lot of us Americans have not heard that many Welsh accents and wouldn't know a "bad" Welsh accent. I've watched tons of movies and tv from the UK since I was a kid and it wasn't until Torchwood that I heard Welsh accents on a regular basis. But even with that, my ear isn't tuned that well to tell if an actor/actress who is not from Wales was doing a bad accent. I can tell when bad American accents are done, of course, because I'm more familiar with them.

I actually don't think the actors (except for Sarah Allgood) are doing Irish accents. I really think they were trying to do Welsh accents! The accents may not be accurate, but the emotions are 100% accurate.

"You may very well think that; I couldn't possibly comment."

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[–] sewing1243 15 years ago

Actual the actor who played the boxer Dai Bando (Rhys Williams) had an excellent Welsh accent. Of course the fact he was Welsh could have had something to do with it (he was originally hired to be the Welsh accent coach for the movie). Also a couple of the actors who played the Morgan sons were real close with their accents.

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[–] bradford-1 15 years ago

Has anyone ever seen the Masterpiece Theater remake of HOW GREEN? If so, how were the accents there? Probably more authentic, because the producers likely had access to many Welsh performers, which Zanuck and Ford did not. Where were Stanley Baker and Emlyn Williams when you needed them?

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