i love love bette davis (who wouldn't??) & her movies too of course but this one always riles me a little...well a lot actually... as do other movies that have an unconventional, opinionated, headstrong woman in them because you know they will be made to pay at some point for their feistiness either through somehow being subdued or worse still their spirit broken or death...(elizabeth taylor butterfield 8/don't even get me started on the 'taming' of the 'shrew'!)
in jezebel it almost amounts to misogyny - ted saying preston will have to keep her (julie) on a tight rein. literally meaning rein her in, like she was a horse he had to break-in, i think he actually says keep her on a short rein. preston rushing up to see her with a stick/cane in hand the implication being in the eyes of aunt belle & her guardian that he's giving her what she has been asking for or deserves...i could go on.
anyway what bugs me is that at first julie is so determined to show them all that she doesn't give two figs for their stuffy conventions & we the audience are right behind her, applauding her...but then she starts to lose faith in herself & begins to accept the guilt that is imposed on her, until finally she too believes she is bad, wicked...so much so that she is even prepared to sacrifice her own life to look after preston in possibly his last days as a way she tells his new wife of making herself clean again like she is??
no one mentions the spiteful acts that preston inflicts upon her... julie is insistant on wearing the red dress to the ball (scandal!) & just when we/she think he is supporting her statement we realise he is actually relishing the fact that she feels uncomfortable in the end & wants to leave. he forces her to stay on the dance floor, to endure the looks she is getting & then unceremoniously dumps her! if that wasn't enough he then flaunts his new bride (who nobody knows about) at julies party in front of their friends. though of course for the writer (male...go figure) that isn't merely enough humiliation for our heroine to take; no before that we have to see her humble herself wearing the white dress for preston begging for his forgiveness...
still not enough...our little 'jezebel' has to be blamed for the death of a man too. despite her real 'crime' being only a little flirting with a man she knows already...& what self respecting woman wouldn't in the face of the ex with his new bride?? the fact that she implores the two men not to be so pigheaded is given no credit at all...as apparently they can't help themselves (poor little loves) once she/the jezebel has set things in motion. but then that's the 'curse' of the jezebel isn't it? they are supposed to be so adept at manipulating & leading men to their doom...please!! come to think of it then the males in question are made out to be no better than mindless fools.
Interesting, so very few posts currently scattered about your several year history on IMDB and you suddenly pop up here of all places, solely to belittle me for criticizing a post spazzing over the politics of a 70, yes I'll reiterate, 70 YEAR OLD fiction movie, set in a time period even OLDER than the movie's filming period, with actors whom are ALL DECEASED. Yes it's so the mark of a rational mind to get worked up over something like this. Indeed I knew there was something questionable about the regularly made suggestion that today's youth be exposed to classic era films.
I'll maybe get to the rest of the cliche and simple-minded "oh woe is wimmin" public school drivel here when I have more time. I've done this many a time and all and it's so simple even to the point of boredom to put away you negative logic empowerment princesses. But given the more annoying than usual and suspicious circumstances under which you posted your rot, an intellectual bitchslapping seems warranted. I will address this little gem however:
well, your views speak for themselves, and they belong in the era of this movie. Are you perhaps a time-traveller from the early 1850s?
Wow, you've accused me of being an "old-fashioned and subservient kitchen slave!" type on account of my not submitting to P.C. vagina worshiping dogma! I'm amazed by your innovative sense of wit! Sorry that I can't be there to join you in patting yourself on the back.
reply share
I mostly agree with your comment. The Julie we are presented with at the beginning of the film is the archetype of a spoiled brat. There is nothing honorable about her decision to wear that red dress and I wonder if the OP really watched the movie lol. Julie's decision to wear the untraditional dress, visit her suiter at work and just generally buck societal conventions stemmed from self centeredness and being a spoilt brat, not some kind of nobility and strenghth of character. By the end of the movie however she does humble herself and see the error of her selfish ways. She doesn't do this to make herself subservient to Preston or any other man but to redeem herself in her own eyes (she makes this very clear in the scene with Preston's wife).
I don't think she,or the movie, deserves your disdain. She definitely redeems herself by the end of the movie!
You must realize the period of time in which the story takes place. That's the way it was back then. Women, in the south, were to be put on a pedestal and to also be kept 'on a tight leash'. It's a story of the truth for that time.
@marktayloruk: good point. She goes for the wimp instead of someone so much better suited to her character - just like Scarlett. Have you noticed that many "strong" women do the same in real life? They want a weakling they can dominate, not a man who's just as forceful as they.
Actually, this is true about people in general, not just women. Bullying types always seem to know who to pick up on, & how to ensure that they will always have someone to push around.
Those who study history are doomed to watch others repeat it.
Agreed. If the title character had been written differently, then yes, her punishment for making "unconvential" choices would smack of misogyny and the rigidity of the social order. But the character is written as willful and immature and selfish. That in and of itself is misogyny, but it doesn't mean that as written, the character doesn't deserve the blame for her actions.
..the character is written as willful and immature and selfish. That in and of itself is misogyny...
It isn't misogyny to write of women as they really are, and women now as well as in 1850 are often willful, immature & selfish. Women are, at best, human beings, and that can mean deeply flawed or downright evil. I don't like the current portrayal of women as perfect, ideal and superior to all men, that sort of thing is not only unreal, it's boring.
Children's films may need super-girl heroine role models. As an adult, I'd rather see characters/people as they really are, flawed and badly behaved and only sometimes rising to the level of hero.
reply share
I largely agree - with the original poster, of course, not the offensive nonsense of the second poster.
I saw it as possibly more of an issue of interpretation, though, rather than the fault of the film. Can't the film be presenting its "truth", without necessarily endorsing it?
The only thing I really hated was when Ted ( was that his name?) basically said it's your fault I had to kill Buck.
I mean sure she instigated a bit but they're adults and it's NOT adult behavior to deal with your issues by dueling to the death. If Julie was guilty of being a brat and selfish then Ted was most certainly guilty of killing a man ... and a friend at that. His inability to accept his own responsability and everyone's attitude towards Julie and the act itself really annoyed me.
If you're "man enough" to kill someone over a few words spoken at a party then you should be man enough to take responsability for it.
Yeah, I agree loredanaghidarcea. What Julie did was stupid, but it didn't mean they HAD to fight the duel. Ted even refused to be talked out of it. He knew when he did it that there was a real chance Buck would die. Ted actually shot the man, he can't advocate all responsibility to Julie, because it's not like he was forced into the duel. Julie even begged both of them not to do it. Their own stupid 'pride' is what killed Buck. It wasn't completely Julie's fault.
Reading this posting and all the replies (Jessica Rabbit69 excepted -- she has it right), makes me ALMOST glad I am "past it" when it comes to women. You modern dames do not even understand the correct way to conduct a cat fight. Suggest you check out another old classic movie "The Women" for pointers.
He maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good... St. Matthew 5:45
Complaining about how women are treated but not complaining how the blacks were treated? I mean, really. The reason they were BOTH treated in such a fashion in this movie is because that is just how they WERE treated in 1850.
Anyway, Julie imposes her will on everyone regardless of the consequences. You may have been behind her because she doesn't go with the crowd, but at the same time, no one else's feelings or opinions matter to her. Self-absorbed much? So Pres is my hero for what he did to her at the ball. Make her wallow in her own crap that she created and that EVERYONE warned her about. And dump her afterward because she STILL didn't learn the lesson.
If you thought Pres was supporting her, you missed the pivotal scene before it. Where he DOES change his tune because he is so in love with her, but being the piece of crap she is, she rubs his nose in it. You forgot your stick....AND you forgot to use it. Basically, showing how she knows she gets away with murder. So at the next opportunity, he doesn't forget his stick or to use it. Pres has FINALLY learned his lesson about her.
Then later, he certainly isn't "flaunting" his new wife. I didn't see him rubbing her nose in it or anything of that nature. However, I DID see Julie playing men against each other, inciting jealousies, etc...
I'm sorry the writer of the story is male, and this bothers you. The writer seems to have been from Maine, as well. Did it bother you that he was writing mainly about southern characters but was from the north as well? Or that he wrote it in his 50's and the main characters were much younger? Perhaps he should have written about a bunch of 50+ year-old male playwrights in Maine? All writers should only write about writers of the same age and gender, right? Wouldn't that be exciting.
"a little flirting with a man she knows already...& what self respecting woman wouldn't in the face of the ex with his new bride??"
Incredibly amusing that you use the term "self-respecting." Flirting to get back at some ex-lover? Wouldn't that pretty much show you don't have much respect for yourself?
"they are supposed to be so adept at manipulating & leading men to their doom" Yes!
"males in question are made out to be no better than mindless fools." YES!!!!!
Women are manipulative. Men are stupid. You have stumbled onto two fundamental truths of life!
Julie is the text book example of a spoiled brat. Whether she has a uterus or testicles doesn't change that she is a spoiled, selfish, b1tch of a brat. It's like they took Scarlet O'Hara and multiples her by 10 and add extra vindictiveness. How anyone could support any person who wants what they want and to he11 with anyone else, is beyond me. I think Julie is actually what men from centuries ago had in mind when they talk about the evils of women. Femmes like Julie give us all a bad name.
If one is offended by sexism, racism, etc...one may consider not watching movies that take place in the antebellum south. Opinions about a woman such as Julie in 1850s Louisiana would have been precisely those of the other characters. If anything, their attitudes are really too lenient toward her. I find it hard to believe any of them would have allowed her to attend the ball in a red strapless (particularly her elder guardian), or that a girl would even have grown up in that society believing she could get away with it.
People miss out on so much great art when they allow themselves to be offended by plot points which often have nothing to do with the attitudes of the filmmakers. Is somebody a racist because they write african americans as slaves in a script about plantations? Of course not. Nor is he a sexist because he (or she) writes a script about a woman in a heavily gendered society who is frowned upon for behaving boldly.
I agree with the original poster in one respect, which is that Julie should not take all the heat when Pres was not exactly the most considerate lover. He chooses her precisely for her tempestuous, childishness but then resents her for it so much that he dumps her once, evidently decides he wants her back, then dumps her again because she hasn't changed. Julie even says "You used to say you liked me that way, you never wanted me to change." Pres is an irresolute baby who doesn't know what he really wants, and hides his indecision under a facade of idealism (Ashley Wilkes, anyone?). He pretends to be unbiased, but really he is simply not a man of conviction. Buck is more redeemable because he knows what he wants, sticks to his mind when it's made up, and isn't wishy-washy like Pres. Pres woos Julie because he is attracted to her, but what he really wants is the ease that someone like Amy will bring to a relationship.
And it was almost outrageously inconsiderate of him to bring Amy to a party at Julie's house one year after their severed engagement without the slightest warning. The very least he could have done was to write Aunt Belle, or even one of his own relations to inquire after Julie's well-being, and judge if it was a wise idea. I personally believe that there was an ulterior motive of gloating behind his lack of tact. He likes the fact that Julie wants him, but is too weak to sustain a relationship with her.
Another wishy-washy pain in the A$$ man doesn't know what he wants movie is The Toy Wife, with Louise Rainer.
SPOILER: It's along the same lines. Creole beauty in 1850s Louisiana is courted and married by a wealthy man who is enchanted by her childlike spirit and sense of play. Naturally, after the marriage he is frustrated by her lack of the maturity one wants in a wife, and crushes her spirit with his disappointment and coldness. As if that wasn't enough, he realizes that the woman he really wanted was her responsible elder sister, who has been in love with him the whole time, the dolt. Now that movie makes me really mad.
That reminds me of Pride and Prejudice, particularly Mr. & Mrs. Bennett. Mr. Bennett was shown as a middle aged man who was stuck with an overbearingly stupid, shallow, loud, and fickle wife. A wife he had chosen in his youthful folly as she was young, eager, and full of life. He had realized only too soon after the marriage that he was stuck with an insipid embarrassing wife who didn't even have her looks to recommend her anymore. Austen the author criticizes men in choosing such wives instead of a woman his equal with a head on her shoulders, a woman who will have some personality when beauty fades instead of some vapid bimbo one chooses in their youth.
Global Warming, it's a personal decision innit? - Nigel Tufnel
Thanks for saying so much which I think but am too lazy to type. Even though Julie was petty and shrewish, I think Pres was barely fit to lick her shoe. No one ever seems to comment on his own pettiness. I am convinced he married Amy and flaunted her at Julie's plantation purely to get back at Julie, showing that not only was he a vindictive prick, but also a user of women (Amy, who no doubt DID love him).
I think even her guardian says something about taking a tree branch and giving her a walloping.
Frankly, I can't imagine what Pres Dillard ever did to earn Julie's love.
I agree. And I don't see why people have attacked you for not considering the era in which the film was produced. It wasn't made in the antebellum era, it was made at a time when women did have the vote, along with greater personal freedoms, so it's perfectly reasonable to criticise it for appearing to advocate retrograde values, such as Julie's self-sacrifice as a necessary act.
It wasn't made in the antebellum era, it was made at a time when women did have the vote, along with greater personal freedoms
But the opinions of the characters must be in accordance with the values of the historical period. They blame Julie, as they must. The filmmakers do not, and the audience has a right to choose where its sympathies lay. The diversity of opinions and perspectives on this board alone show that the film's depiction of Julie is not so black and white. Pres, a man of his time and locale, cannot marry a woman who has dishonored him by causing a public scandal. The other characters support him upholding the code of his people. Even Julie seems to understand she has gone too far, though she herself is too high spirited to mold herself to the rigid (and sexist) code of conduct. We as an audience, however, rejoice in her audacious rebellion against values we understand to be silly and outdated, even as we lament in her tragic hubris...namely her frustrating inability to change her actions even though she knows the consequences.
Julie can be interpreted as a selfish manipulator, or as a courageous underdog swimming futilely up the proverbial stream of an unjust society. The filmmakers wisely depict her as both, even as the characters who surround her can see her only as the former. That is what makes Julie as a character so brilliant.
The Scarlett O'Hara comparison seems almost inevitable, so I will beat a dead association to death. Scarlett seems invariably to be regarded by audiences either as the ultimate bitch character, siren and manipulator; or as a courageous survivor whose greatest asset is her formidable gumption in times of adversity...the strong woman who lives by her own rules and doesn't care about the opinions of her narrow-minded contemporaries. That she can be both villainess and heroine to so many people makes the story work, and made the character an icon.
Julie is less iconic, but perhaps that is because she is more subtly drawn in her moral ambiguity than her famous successor.
I mentioned The Toy Wife, also set in 1850s Louisiana and made in 1938. I have recently read online reviews of this film and was surprised to read how much that film's female lead "Frou Frou" was regarded as at fault for her actions, though I had always felt that she was a crushed heroine, her follies the result of emotional neglect by her husband.
it's perfectly reasonable to criticise it for appearing to advocate retrograde values, such as Julie's self-sacrifice as a necessary act.
The narrative format of Jezebel follows the framework of a nineteenth century melodrama. This narrative format necessitates the self-sacrifice of the unconventional "bad" woman archetype in order to reconcile her with the values she has subverted...she can never be permitted to rise above them no matter how repentant she may be. Many of these women were sympathetic and psychologically complex even at the time, and by modern standards come across as tragic victims or brave rebels. But the narrative still requires their sacrifice, because to survive "dishonor" is simply inconceivable in the cultural context. Jezebel was made after, but takes place within that cultural context, and uses that model for inspiration. The screenwriters could have allowed Julie to triumph ultimately, but it wouldn't have made sense according to the logic of the melodrama narrative, and just would have been bad screenwriting. The audience shouldn't get the ending it wants in this kind of story, but the ending the story requires.
reply share
Having seen this film only once, I should perhaps not get too far into the argument about what the ending really means. As I noted on another thread here, for example, I did not think that the "sacrifice" Julie makes is entirely that. I think she wanted to go to the island in part because she hoped to get Press back. But that is also a huge taking of risk for her. Concededly. And yet that she may have been making a mistake as to what might end up happening (even if they both survive there's no guarantee Press would leave Amy for Julie), does not mean that intention was not part of her motivation.
In short it is not clear to me that Julie really believed she was going to be better able to take care of Press on the island. It certainly seemed to be asserted by her as a means of appealing to Amy's loyalty to her husband, but whether Julie really believed her assertion is not clear.
But the larger point here is that for a film of its time I very much enjoyed the complexity of the characters. With the possible exception of Amy, who overall is a rather thinly drawn character, none of hte main characters (including the aunt) are either mostly good or evil. They are both. And so Julie is BOTH a selfish manipulator and an exciting and even admirable force willing to challenge convention.
And Press is both unfair to love Julie and then expect her to change her character, while also probably right in the end to marry a woman like Amy, who seemed better suited for him and his personality.
I did not think that the "sacrifice" Julie makes is entirely that. I think she wanted to go to the island in part because she hoped to get Press back.
When Julie made up her mind to do something, she did it all the way. I think that the desire to be with Pres was such an overriding force in her psyche that being with him even on the fever island where they would both face almost certain death was a triumph for her. Amy also seems to sense that allowing Julie to "nurse" her husband at the likely cost of both their lives is a concession of power. Julie differs from Scarlett O'Hara in this respect...her desires being more essential to her character than her personal survival. Whether or not she had any practical idea of winning him back, or was simply so obsessed as to rejoice at dying with him, I can't say.
reply share
I agree with the OP. The mores we see are the mores of the 1930s Hays Code, not of 1850s Louisiana. Julie must be "punished" because she is headstrong and would like to be independent, or at least more of a mistress of her own ship, stemming from early 20th century unease about women's liberation and women having more legal power (thanks to things like the vote). Also, Preston gets away with extremely caddish behavior because that was acceptable among men in the early 20th century.
But those on this thread who claim it was much worse in the 1850s are, I think, incorrect and ascribing to the fallacy that whatever ugly trend is going on in one part of the past must have been worse in the past it's describing. This is not always true.
The past of Jezebel is the Fantasy Antebellum South of Gone with the Wind, not the historical Antebellum South. Yes, Julie would have been more constrained, socially, in her period, but this only makes Preston's behavior even more caddish.
Take the ball at the beginning. Yes, it's childish and high-handed for Julie to show up late for her own ball. But she's not just throwing it for herself. When she appears, we see her immediately get into a vigorous defense of Preston against Buck's accusations that he is a class "traitor" for having business connections in the North. The ball is as much for his social standing as for hers, which is taking a hit in her marrying him.
She also tells Preston at one point that she's been working on her dress for months, so this is all planned. There is no reason for Preston to decide to take on the bank officials that day. He knows perfectly well it's coming. Preston acts as if he's a freethinking saint constrained by a hidebound society, but in reality, he is even more headstrong and spoiled than Julie, and feels he can do whatever he likes.
Further, Preston's reaction to Julie's red dress shows up his hypocrisy. It's perfectly okay if *he* damages her social standing by being a rude jerk, but God forbid she not do everything exactly so. And the breaking of the engagement? Let alone showing up out of the blue with a new wife (a Northern wife, no less)? While still acting as if he's still interested in Julie? In real history terms, he'd have been lucky not to have been sued or shot in a duel long before Julie began making trouble for him. Her family would have run him right out of town.
I think Jezebel is one of those movies, like The Moon and Sixpence, where a male figure in an historical period is treated sympathetically for the period in which the film is made, but would be regarded with scorn, both in the historical period shown and today, albeit for somewhat different reasons.