The man's dead. If he ever was a threat to anyone, and I'm doubtful he did anymore than simply sleep besides children at his Neverland Ranch (which was admittedly a really dumb thing to do, but is not the same as committing an act of sexual molestation), he certainly isn't now.
Screw HBO and Channel Four for trying to demonise another black icon, especially one who is no longer alive to defend himself, with allegations that have previously been discredited.
Michael Jackson is one of the most influential artists of the last one hundred years, and the assorted artists and celebs and cultural commentators who gave the hit-piece documentary a standing ovation at Sundance last month are a bunch of hypocrites.
I have, for decades, been able to disassociate the behavior of Jackson from the genius of his music. I wouldn't stop loving hamburgers if I found out the creator was a serial killer. Long before these new revelations there are no parents out there that would have let their child stay a night with MJ. So it isn't anything new other than really forcing everyone to face the true levels of depravity the icon was capable of. It is sad. Sad to be forced to abandon pleasant perceptions but even more sad to think on the victims and the crimes against them that society has been so comfortable with.
I will continue to enjoy his music but I do not think that that justifies ignoring the crimes. He will remain one of the greatest and most influential pop artists of all time. You can't take anything away from the art. But his image must suffer. The genius does not afford a free pass at the expense of children.
But this is what annoys me. The man is dead. If he was ever a threat to children, he hasn't been for the last ten years.
Who does this benefit? The stupid parents of these alleged victims trying to at one for their reckless behaviour? The arrogant filmmakers seeking to make a name for themselves by destroying a much beloved icon? The bitter Millennials who take pleasure in destroying everything previous generations held dear?
And as a side note, I don't eat hamburgers because meat requires the slaughter of animals. I try to live as ethical a life as possible, but music is the one thing I derive pleasure from and distracts me from all the shit in the world and keeps me going through my mental illnesses. If it wasn't for music I'd probably be dead by now. But now these selfish, money-grubbing shits want to take that away from me too. Fuck them!
No one can take the music from you. That's the point.
No one gets a pass for dying, though.
Look on the bright side. Everyone has ignored his behavior for this long and they let Roman Polanski back into the fold. So you can keep enjoying the music until no one cares about what he did to innocent children anymore.
The kids, and their parents. "But now these selfish, money-grubbing shits want to take that away from me too" sure sounded like you were specifically talking about the kids (now adults), who'd filed a suit against the MJ estate. Not their parents.
The parents were groomed by Jackson, as well as the kids. Yes, they do share in the responsibility for what happened, but as far as I can see you keep shifting the blame away from the person who was the perpetuator, which is where the blame should actually fall.
You really can't speak much about this without seeing the documentary for yourself, first.
sure sounded like you were specifically talking about the kids (now adults), who'd filed a suit against the MJ estate. Not their parents.
That's what it 'sounded' like to you. That doesn't mean you're right.
And based on what everyone else is saying about the documentary, yourself included, it is a rather miserable and traumatising experience.
Honestly, I have enough of that in my life already. I don't need more misery especially in relation to crimes allegedly perpetrated by a man who is no longer a threat, real or otherwise, to anyone anymore.
You and others want me to see the documentary, but tell me, what do I benefit from doing so? Just hearing about the frickin thing has already brought me down enough.
I can't stop abuse that allegedly took place thirty years ago, so what possible good can this documentary do for you, me, or anyone else?
I'm more concerned about ongoing or potential future abuse, or even bringing living people to justice, rather than talking about a man who died ten years ago and was exonerated by the justice system during his lifetime.
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I don't understand why you'd say that about the parents, when they're not making a single dime, nor asking anyone for one.
Traumatising is a bit too strong a word, but it's not too far off.
I didn't say anything about wanting you to see it. In fact, knowing what I know about you learned over the past day or two, I'd suggest you do NOT see it.
What I did say is you can't speak much about it, given you haven't seen it, and that is the simple truth.
What good it's doing is bringing pedophilia to the forefront, and how this could have happened and continued to happen. The dangers of fandom, and how in this case it essentially groomed all of us. We were all too willing to look the other way, buy that he was this gentle, loving soul that was so innocent and looooved children because they are innocent.To write off his bizarre behaviours as harmless eccentricities.
It's also a very important part of the healing process for these two victims. There have to be more out there, and this will be healing for them too, as well as anyone who has suffered or is suffering from being molested.
It shows parents what to watch out for, so they won't be seduced like these parents were.
It also shows -- once again -- the fallibility of the justice system, the same as the OJ Simpson trial (and many others) did.
"I didn't say anything about wanting you to see it. In fact, knowing what I know about you learned over the past day or two, I'd suggest you do NOT see it."
What's that supposed to mean?
"What I did say is you can't speak much about it, given you haven't seen it, and that is the simple truth."
This is unfair. You're advising me NOT to see it, but you're also limiting my right to an opinion.
And you still haven't addressed the difficult question of how pop culture can often be an escape from individuals to escape their own experiences of trauma and abuse. How do you resolve that one? How does robbing people of that catharsis help the majority? Or does the majority not count? Just the parents who were stupid enough to turn a blind eye to the alleged abuse they supposedly subjected their own children to? The rest of us have to suffer for their gross negligence towards their own children?
Because fame works both ways. You want his legend to live on unsullied.
You know, HE should have wanted his legend to live on unsullied. He kept with the kiddie sleepovers after the first charges hit the fan. That screams compulsion, an inability to stop. If nothing was going on, he could have just visited children's hospitals, touring with the staff. But no, he had to have sleepovers with kids in his bedroom, the bedroom rigged with alarms to let him know someone was coming. If that were for security, you'd have the alarms on the outside of the house so if a window got jimmied you'd have time to have the police get there. This was on the inside, so he'd be ready if anyone walked into his room when he had a little boy in there.
Oh, please. I don't care if he invented music. That's no excuse.
The reason that this documentary should be talked about is that although Jackson is dead, there are still pedophiles out there. There are valuable things to be learned from the documentary, first and foremost of which is what pedophilia does to the children who survive it and their families, and learning what a pedophile is and how to spot one. Pedos aren't monsters who snatch kids off the street, they're people you know and trust, because they've deliberately taken the trouble to win everyone's trust.
If anyone is having trouble dealing with this, I recommend two things: 1) Avoid discussions of Jackson with online strangers, because there's no way that online strangers are going to somehow make things okay. 2) Talk to a therapist about this instead of the nutballs on this board.
The irony is that I am very vigilant about paedophiles and child molesters (not all of these child abusing sex predators are innately attracted to children - many of them simply take advantage of a child's vulnerability) in my everyday life. I don't need to be lectured on what to look for.
Also, can I ask, have you ever had a therapist? Do you think it's easy to speak face-to-face with someone about your feelings regarding a famous celebrity who has nothing directly to do with your life? Anonymous discourse on these topics is much easier, even if it is potentially subject to ridicule and nastiness, because none of the ridicule and nastiness can be as personal or judgemental as it would be with someone who knows your name and has seen your face (although that is precisely why people should be much more sympathetic and supportive to one another online seeing that, for individuals like me, it is the only alternative to setting oneself up to be judged by a therapist).
You may be vigilant, but the world is full of the clueless, and it's them I'm trying to reach - not you. So many people think of pedophiles as some sort of monsters or "other", and not as some nice guy they know, some person who's made damn sure to fit into the community or the family and win trust, or even love. It's all a lie, a lie created with a heart full of cruelty and betrayal, but sometimes it's a convincing lie.
A for therapy... let's just say, it wasn't available for me when I needed it most.
But really, if you have a therapist, you might want to bring this up, because obviously it's causing you great distress. Distress is always worth discussing, even if the cause doesn't seem all that important on the surface. If you might have trouble bringing up the subject, you could frame it as having trouble dealing with lies and betrayals, because yes - Jackson lied to his fans and betrayed them, he wasn't who he seemed to be.
But come to think of it, it's not me who has trouble dealing with lies and betrayals. It's everyone else.
If the people who assaulted me were to come back into my life somehow and apologise, and if possible rectify the situation, I'd forgive them. I'm a very forgiving person. I prefer to let bygones be bygones. I don't understand vengeance and vindictiveness. These are bizarre concepts to me. Justice I understand, but only where it genuinely helps and is as restorative as possible.
Want I resent is having my sense of peace being shattered. I just want to get on with my own life without any hassle.
The irony is, and I speak as a victim here, society is not really that interested in helping victims move on. It's not really interested in empowering victims and giving them want they really want and need. It's motivated more by punishing perpetrators and getting its pound of flesh.
Well, quite frankly, I couldn't give two proverbials what happens to the people who abused me and let me down. I care more about what society is going to do to help me move on, professionally and personally. Do you honestly think if I'm rich and I'm happy and in a great relationship with a great job that I'd really give a flying proverbial what happened to me as a kid?
"Want I resent is having my sense of peace being shattered. I just want to get on with my own life without any hassle."
You cannot reasonably ask society at large, or anyone who is not very close to you, to make your sense of peace their personal priority - that is not a reasonable expectation. Neither society at large nor people who aren't close to you have any idea what helps you to maintain your sense of peace, and if they knew what you needed, they would still place your sense of peace at a lower priority than their own (everyone has issues). This is something you have to allow for in both your thought processes and your planning, the fact that you can't keep things that upset you from happening, or from intruding into your life. Everyone needs to find ways to cope with unexpected or unwelcome events, and FYI everyone has difficulty with this.
But if you are continuing to have a lot of difficulty, I'm going to urge you to discuss all this with your therapist! And since that's the most important thing I could possibly say, I'm going to end this discussion with that.
Did you miss the part where I said I am able to move on from trauma, just as long as I am allowed to pursue my own interests and ambitions without any hassle?
I'm not sure why others can't do the same.
I don't abuse people. I try and live a life that has a little negative impact on others as possible, which, sadly, means I have had to make certain sacrifices. But I'm content to do that. All I ask is that others show the same respect to me in turn.
Like I said elsewhere, if we all just decided from today to show one another respect, to acknowledge each other's personal space, to stop judging and criticising others, to end our resentments and misgivings and start from scratch with an open mind, we could all move on and create a positive society free from abuse and hate.
But the will has to be there. I have that will. Do you?
I'll take your advice and end this particular discussion between us.
I hope we can however continue to converse on more upbeat discussions within this site (i.e. stuff like the 'Clueless' discussion we had a few days ago).
Why does anybody give a shit about this f'ing pervert, criminal, freak, retard and his crappy infantile "music"? "one of the most influential artist of the last one hundred years"? Jesus H. Christ, sit down somewhere and grunt really, really hard and try to develop a functioning brain.
If you don't like his music, that's fine. If you think he's a paedophile, that's also fine (you may, sadly, be right). But you're a prick for attacking others who are struggling with these revelations as fans of his music.
And by the way, by attacking his music for being crappy and infantile, you're inadvertently attacking the very people he allegedly victimised (the young fans of his music who were star-struck by the man).
And I'm not even just talking about his solo stuff. Many serious music critics will tell you that The Jackson Five, along with many of their fellow Motown bands, are among the most important pop musicians of all time.
Like the parents and siblings of little boys he liked. Left them totally alone in a hotel room on another floor, or a guest house, or ideally in another state or on another continent...
Freak f'ed around with little boys. Why leave him alone? Just because he's dead doesn't mean he should go on being a beloved celebrity. He should be forgotten.