Will His Career Recover? - Liam Neeson Discussion

[–] prometheus1816 (1060) 6 years ago

Having read the article myself I can say he was explaining this as his mindset THEN not now. He was a guy in Ireland that was known as being very racist and sexist. He said that was his mindset and that he no longer thinks that since he moved beyond the confines of that mindset in leaving Ireland. He'll be alright as long as social media doesn't order his banishment from the earth.

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[–] [deleted] 6 years ago

In theory, you're right. Everything you say makes sense.

In reality, this story has blown up in the news, at least in the UK, where it's the second lead story on the BBC News FFS! This is in the middle of a frickin' Brexit Crisis. And we are not living in an era of nuance. We're living in an era of binary extremes. And you're either a perfectly unblemished social justice campaigning woke progressive, or you're a unrepentantly misogynist MAGA-cap wearing alt-right white supremacist.

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[–] mav100000 (345) 6 years ago

This. Absolutely this. And it sucks!

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[–] Threadkiller (3080) 6 years ago

I don't believe his career will be negatively affected in Hollywood. Certainly not in a way it would if in his horrifying confession "black bastard" was replaced with "jew" or "homosexual" as unlike those groups, black people don't have any significant executive power or influence in the industry.

The backlash will largely blow over but for me even as someone who has long enjoyed his work, at this point I don't think I could ever look past this which is unfortunate.

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[–] McQualude (4231) 6 years ago

So you don't allow for people to make mistakes or grow? Should we all be held accountable for thoughts we had but didn't act upon?

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[–] Threadkiller (3080) 6 years ago

My biggest issue with his confession is that he didn't
(and still hasn't) acknowledged the magnitude of his horrific racism.

He has only specifically expressed his regret over his intent to commit murder in general, leaving it to his defenders to fill in the blanks on his behalf with the assumption that he's also acknowledging & expressing remorse over his extreme racism.

Follow up quotes by Neeson that
"I'm not racist" followed by claiming his reaction would have been the same if "had she said an Irish or a Scot." only further indicates that his failure to acknowledge his racism wasn't accidental because he has somehow rationalized that he wasn't a racist even then.

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[–] galahadfairlight (414) 6 years ago

He's no racist, not one bit.

He was going target black men because a black man raped his friend, he's made it clear, if it were an Asian man, he'd be targeting Asian men.

What you have to take into account is the general state of Ireland in the 70's and 80's, and how the revenge attitude that many of the men in Ireland were used to.

If a Protestant was killed by a Catholic, whilst the ideal revenge would be to go and kill someone connected to the Catholic in question, invariably they'd simply settle for ANY Catholic, that was their idea of settling their revenge.

We don't have to agree with it, but that is certainly the way it was. Tit for tat for years, and Neesons reaction to the rape is absolutely no different.

The difference is however that he has since been able to reflect on that behaviour and realise it was wrong.

Make no mistake, no-one is suggesting him looking for a black man or ANY man was a particularly good idea, that an innocent man might die for the actions of someone else, but in the perspective of the time the rape took place, Neesons reaction is exactly as the Irish dealt with these things.

Theres no racism to it at all for Neeson.

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[–] Threadkiller (3080) 6 years ago

Just so we're clear, you're suggesting Neeson not only isn't a racist now but nor was he then or his attempts to encounter a random "black bastard" to murder because you know context? Right

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[–] galahadfairlight (414) 6 years ago

Just so we're clear, when a person rapes a friend of yours, calling that rapist a "bastard" is a step too far?

He might well have been a racist, but his motive for wanting to kill a black person wasn't born out of racism, it was born out of someone raping their friend. He's also made it clear that had the rapist being Asian, he'd be looking for an Asian man, and yes, he would probably have said "Asian bastard".

The thing is, this incident was 40 years ago, and in 40 years YOU feel that it impossible for someone to have reflectively changed their attitudes toward black people and no longer be a racist.

The fact remains, him wanting to kill a black person had nothing to do with racism irrespective of whether or not he himself was a racist at that time, his motive was for the rape, not because they were black.

Right?

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[–] Threadkiller (3080) 6 years ago

"He's also made it clear that had the rapist being Asian, he'd be looking for an Asian man"

Which would also be incredibly racist.

"The fact remains, him wanting to kill a black person had nothing to do with racism irrespective of whether or not he himself was a racist at that time, his motive was for the rape, not because they were black."

Your logic here flawed to a point where you are woefully obvious the issue of racism or you're trolling.

Even most of his defenders concede that his immediate reaction to his friend's apparent rape was incredibly racist.

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[–] galahadfairlight (414) 6 years ago

How the hell was it racist? Would it be racist if a white man raped his friend he went looking for a white man to kill?

Please answer, and we'll deal with the rest.

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[–] Threadkiller (3080) 6 years ago

I'm sorry but frankly your opinion here isn't credible if are truly unable to grasp that a white man prowling the streets with the specific intention of encountering a random black person to murder is unambiguously and horrifically racist.

There's simply no deflecting around that.

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[–] galahadfairlight (414) 6 years ago

Deflection. Thought as much.

Lets make it clear. If the rapist was white but he only sought out a black man and only a black man to appease his anger, thats pretty much the definition of racism right there, because there is no apparent connection to wanting to seek out a black man.

However, in the context of how many Irish men dealt with revenge during The Troubles, and certainly Neeson would have been influenced by the prevailing attitudes of the time, him looking to seek revenge against a black man because a black man raped his friend is perversely how many killings of the time were justified.

There was NO racism behind it, just as when a Protestant wanted to kill a Catholic in revenge for another Protestant being killed at the hands of another Catholic, there was likely NO connection between the target for that Protestant other than them being a Catholic.

Yes, Neeson was looking for a random man, but there was nothing random about it being a black man, which is the part you don't seem to grasp at all.

Revenge and "Justice" in Ireland during those times was pretty simple, and thats not to defend Neeson for wanting to go and kill ANYONE no matter what colour they are as they would have been innocent, but you clearly don't understand the mindset of those in Ireland at the height of the Troubles and just how tit for tat and how little reasoning went behind it.

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[–] Threadkiller (3080) 6 years ago

I'm afraid what would constitute deflecting would be your babble splaining & erroneous hypotheticals rather than straight forward discorse, not my refusal to be sidetracked by that. thanks for trying though.

Since it's been established that you have your own opinion of what constitutes racism that differs from mine & most sensible people there's really no meaningful discourse to be had.

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[–] galahadfairlight (414) 6 years ago

Hypotheticals?

Bravo, you know nothing of Ireland and then let us all know!!

Thats fine, you have no counter, just admit it next time instead of pretending.

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[–] Threadkiller (3080) 6 years ago

Whatever you say sport. I'm sure you will find a patient
soul willing to engage
your troll ramble schtick

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[–] galahadfairlight (414) 6 years ago

Theres no "whatever I say sport" about it, you have absolutely no idea of the mentality of how revenge worked in Ireland at all.

You're a fool

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[–] NorrinRad (5468) 6 years ago

How the hell was it racist? Would it be racist if a white man raped his friend he went looking for a white man to kill?

Please answer, and we'll deal with the rest.

I'll answer that question for you. Liam would be a psychopath. Why? He went out looking to get revenge for whom? By wanting to kill some White Bastard that raped his lady friend? What part of that is primordial rage?

How does that avenge the woman who was raped? Suppose, just suppose he did that. Killed the unlucky White Bastard that had a "Go At Him" and the actual white man who raped the lady (and got away with it) returns to the fruit of his efforts and rapes her again?

Liam was enraged NOT because she was raped but because he thought a Black man did it. Liam by his own statements told you he was a psychopath looking to commit violence against another human and a racist because he sought out a Black person. What difference did the race of the man have to do with the rape of the woman?

By no stretch of the imagination does anyone believe Liam would have been cruising Bars and white areas with a cosh looking to get into a tussle with a random White Bastard.

There were three victims in Liam's vigilante revenge story:
The Lady who he wasn't seeking justice for.
The Black Communities that he terrorized while walking up and down the streets menacingly looking to start and finish something.
Society in general for his violent actions against Black Communities in destroying the connections between diverse people.

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[–] galahadfairlight (414) 6 years ago

No-one is defending him wanting to kill an innocent man at all, certainly not me.

And no, absolutely NOT was Neeson enraged more about the fact a black man raped his friend than the actual rape, thats such a ridiculous thing to claim.

I refer you to the answer I gave the other person, if you don't understand the mindset of revenge during The Troubles, then you're probably not best placed to think you have the answer.

Protestants were killing Catholics, and Catholics were killing Protestants, the criteria for revenge in Ireland was pretty simple, if a Catholic kills a Protestant, go and kill ANY Catholic regardless of whether they were innocent and had anything to do with that Protestant dying.

No-one is defending Neeson for wanting to kill anyone, but simple and plain as it is, there was an emphatic reason why he was looking for a black man, if he was looking for a black man to kill for the rape when an Asian did it, then you can cry "racist" as much as you like.

To deny the connection to why in his mind he was looking for a black man is to be disingenuous.

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[–] NorrinRad (5468) 6 years ago

So you are saying that an Ethno-Nationalist war "The Troubles" had NO racial component?

You're saying that "The Troubles" were a logical but acquired foundation for rage and violence and overwhelmed and clouded conscious actions?

Which is why I stated that the answer to your question was that Liam was a not-justifiable Psychopath. Yes, he was also a Racist. He set out into Black Communities, Black Establishments seeking a Black person who would want to have a "Go" at him so that he could kill him.

Why would a random Black person want to have a Go at a random White stranger? Could it be because Liam assumed that just because HE was White that a random Black person would want to start a beef with him because of his race? You don't think that Liam was relying on some type of perceived racial grievance, racial bias to be the trigger for an altercation with him? Was there a history of "The Racial Troubles" that Liam was leaning into?

Protestant vs Catholic rage and revenge isn't a cover for his ignorance and racial animus.

You're best defense was that he was accidentally racist or racist by circumstance only or unintentionally racist? Or "I didn't know I was racist"?

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[–] galahadfairlight (414) 6 years ago

You're not very learned are you?

The Troubles had NO racial component, unless you're telling me that Protestants and Catholics are from different "races"????

I can see where you're headed with this, he was predisposed that if he sought hard enough in black areas of Ireland (no such thing by the way!), he'd find a "willing" victim because racism.

No. If Neeson REALLY wanted a black man or any man to have a pop at him, its not that difficult, simply staring at another bloke in an aggressive manner until they respond in a macho way is likely to get the desired result pretty damned quickly.

I would suggest (and i've not heard anyone else bring it up), that Neeson whilst feeling rageful, wasn't quite as upto killing someone as he made out, because having an altercation with another guy really is the easiest thing in the world to provoke and start, the usual "What are you looking at?", "Nothing!", "Who the F**K are you calling nothing?" etc, etc, etc.

And whaddya know, he looked for a week but couldn't find anyone to oblige him.

I can tell you that if he wanted trouble, he could find it in quick order, not a week, not even a couple of days, literally within hours of setting out.

He lacked the conviction of how he felt...... he was no racist, and could no more kill an innocent black man than he could anyone else.

Read between the lines ;)

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[–] TaRaNRoD (1579) 6 years ago

Don't bother, these morons have their heads to deep into their asses and probably don't even want to understand what you are saying on purpose. You are absolutely right, in no way he was more enraged about the fact that he was a black guy than it was about the actual rape.

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[–] McQualude (4231) 6 years ago

You're dodging my question.

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[–] Threadkiller (3080) 6 years ago

Neeson's unwillingness thus far to actually acknowledge his horrific racism for what it was suggests it wasn't much of a "mistake", thus showing no "growth" regarding his racism.

He didn't simply have brief fleeting thoughts but a deep seeded racist mindset, the likes that has inspired countless indiscriminate white supremacist lynchings of black men.

Prowling the streets for days on end with a weapon hoping to encounter a random black man he could beat to death is an example of horrifyingly racist "behavior", far beyond thoughts.

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[–] TandyMan (11120) 6 years ago

Seems to be getting some positive spin, especially from black journalists who are happy a real conversation is finally happening about the nature of racism.

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[–] [deleted] 6 years ago

That's the type of response and conversation I'd like to see come out of this, although it would help if Neeson was a bit more unequivocal in saying that he regrets those past thoughts and that they're not a reflection on who he is now. After all, people aren't stupid. We know racism and racist thoughts exist. How we deal with them and how we tackle our own prejudices is what matters.

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[–] replicant4 (219) 6 years ago

I think a key element to the story that is being misunderstood is....people think he was saying he wanted to find any random black man to attack. I think what he was saying was...he was hoping a black man would attack him so he could have a chance to fight back, and take out his anger that way. Still not a good mindset....but people (might) understand that a bit more than if they think he just wanted to go find any random, innocent guy and attack him. At least if he (Liam) was being attacked first, then he would have every right to defend himself. And the attacker would kinda have it coming to him. In that scenario, him walking around looking for trouble would still be a bad decision.

And yes....talking about his mindset 40 years ago, in a recent interview...was just a really bad call. I think he was thinking he'd get a pass...maybe even kudos...for being open and honest about past mistakes, and starting a dialogue about a topic others lurk in the shadows about. Ummm, that was a huge miscalculation. In today's culture, a middle-aged white guy will just NEVER get points for trying to appear "woke". No...he will get publicly castigated, as maginalized groups with this newfound power you mentioned....exact their revenge on him. It is a mob mentality...and people love piling-on....banging the drums loudly, until the witch is driven out into the streets for justice.

It's not open and honest dialogue they want. And they don't want to talk forgiveness, or peace...love and understanding. No....they just want a pound of flesh. And then, they want the transgressors ruined permanently....banished, never to return. And by banishing enough of them, the scales will tip in favor of the marginalized. And they will then have the power. Human nature, I'm afraid...has become rather shitty.

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[–] [deleted] 6 years ago

It's not open and honest dialogue they want. And they don't want to talk forgiveness, or peace...love and understanding. No....they just want a pound of flesh. And then, they want the transgressors ruined permanently....banished, never to return. And by banishing enough of them, the scales will tip in favor of the marginalized. And they will then have the power. Human nature, I'm afraid...has become rather shitty.

To be fair, I think it's mostly white 'liberals' who are getting the most hot and bothered about this. They're in a competition to prove themselves woker than thou, presumably in order to impress the black community or their college sophomore girlfriends or something, so they seize the earliest opportunity to take down any other white people for racism or misogyny and so on.

Quite a few black writers and commentators, like Gary Younge, and the ex-footballer John Barnes (who has in fact come to Neeson's defence, even going so far as to say 'he deserves a medal [for opening up the conversation]') have displayed a more nuanced take on Neeson's confession, rather than calling for his head.

That said, even speaking as a progressive, one has to be cautious about the motives of people on all sides of the political spectrum. Human nature has ALWAYS been shitty, and many white men will seek to do whatever they can to preserve the status-quo, whilst many women and POC will always use mendacious tactics to get their piece of the pie (like the female footballer who recently said "men have ruled the world for the last few hundred years. Now it's time for women to have a few hundred years in charge") rather than doing what we should all be aiming for, which is striving for a equal and fair world which treats everyone the same regardless of gender, race, religion and sexuality.

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[–] janelsenor (2044) 6 years ago

I think he'll be OK in the long run. If Mel Gibson can recover after his fiasco, Neeson will be OK.

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[–] [deleted] 6 years ago

Did Gibson's career ever fully recover?

There are still many people who won't watch a Gibson film on principle.

To be fair, I think the contempt directed at Gibson is more understandable than any directed at Neeson. Neeson has hopefully repented and changed his mindset from the hot-headed racist he was forty years ago, whereas Gibson's racist rant happened relatively recently and he never truly apologised for it.

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[–] janelsenor (2044) 6 years ago

It may not have fully recovered, but he definitely wasn't ruined. He's working a lot more than many thought he would when his incident occurred.

And I agree, the contempt for Gibson is more understandable. That's why I feel Neeson will probably have an even better recovery from this.

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[–] cyberbob (3488) 6 years ago

It basically did fully recover. He got Oscar nominations for Best Picture and Best Director a couple of years ago and he's got several acting and directing projects coming up

And this is considering that Gibson's remarks were wayyy more inflammatory than Neeson's. Gibson was recorded explicitly using the N word and ranting about jews. Neeson's comments were about something that happened decades ago under very different circumstances.

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[–] galahadfairlight (414) 6 years ago

I don't find the ire directed toward Gibson understandable at all!

1). He was an alchoholic when he had his "moment"
2). He said a few choice words about Jews, and lets be honest, who when they were not raging drunk didn't in a fight or argument pick the nastiest thing to respond with?

Its followed him like a dog for a long time.

But, the moral compass of Hollywood and everyone that is invested in it apparently has no issues with attempted murder by Mark Wahlberg in the 80's which was tainted with racism.

It was interesting to read some of the reviews for Daddy's Home 2, Mark Wahlberg, John Lithgow, Will Ferrel and Mel Gibson. Several reviews stuck the knife in on Mel Gibson "what the hell was he doing in this movie", "his inclusion ruined it" blah, blah, blah....... but Mark Wahlberg, guilty and sent to prison for attempted murder with a connection to racism....... not one mention.

So no, i have no idea why its more "understandable" for Gibson to be continually raked over the coals for words when Wahlbergs actions were far more damaging, his victim went blind ffs!

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[–] [deleted] 6 years ago

Mel Gibson had two 'moments'.

In addition to his drunken anti-Semitic 'sugar-tits' episode (during an incident, lest we forget, where he was already in the wrong for drink driving and potentially endangering lives), there was a subsequent episode where be verbally ranted at his then girlfriend and declared on tape that he hoped she'd be raped by a gang of black men (except instead of 'black men' he used the 'n' word).

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[–] galahadfairlight (414) 6 years ago

Ok, two moments...... but that brings me back to the point I made earlier.

When drunk and get into an argument they will often pick something so out of character and nasty to attack with.

Whilst I don't want to make too many excuses for him, being an alcoholic is seen as a medical condition, he at least had a reason for the way he was.

Since he's stopped drinking has he repeated any of that language at anyone? No.

You're right, drink driving does potentially endanger lives...... probably not as endangering as ATTEMPTED MURDER though eh?

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[–] [deleted] 6 years ago

Did Liam Neeson 'attempt to murder anyone'? Thought crimes are not real crimes. A criminal offence requires a Mens Rea and an Actus Reus. Where is the Actus Reus in Neeson's forty-year-old 'crime'?

And, I'm not arguing for Mel Gibson to be kicked out of Hollywood, but I am disappointed that he never truly offered an apology or any sort of real contrition for his behaviour, which was caught, unbeknownst to him, on tape. By contrast, Neeson volunteered his confession as a means of illustrating what type of man he once was, and is, thankfully, no longer.

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[–] galahadfairlight (414) 6 years ago

I dunno, we're getting pretty bloody close to thought crimes aren't we?

The problem with Mel Gibson apologising, is who is he apologising to? You? Me? The incumbants of Twitter?

The only people he really owes an apology to is those he's directly affected, and i'd argue he has sorted himself out, is no longer an alcoholic and hasn't repeated his past transgressions.

I'm all for people being given a hard time when they've done something wrong, but i'm also one for weighing up the weight of what they've done on reflection, and a few nasty words and a drink driving conviction do not trump attempted murder...... EVER!

But thats exactly the situation we find ourselves in. Now I personally don't have an issue with Mark Wahlberg, I wouldn't want him hounded any more than Gibson, but his example shows that Hollywood and those that drive the narrative have very flexible morals and the dogpiling of people just appears to be getting worse and worse.

However the Neeson example shows that even though he has explained thats no longer who he is anymore and his attitudes and rage has changed, there are STILL people that are trying to drive the narrative of hounding him out of a career.

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[–] snepts (11123) 6 years ago

This is the only place I've heard this, so at the moment I reckon his career is safe. Regardless, if he hasn't made enough haul to not be able to go quietly off to some far off place where people won't bother him, then I don't know what. The whole episode is a shame, and I'm surprised he spoke up this way. I would have left those feelings to myself.

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[–] LeWildPlatypus (768) 6 years ago

It was a recent account of something that happened 40 years ago. Liam's a tough guy, physically and mentally, to say what he did in an era of outrage and mob-like mentality takes guts. He came clean about feeling vengeful all those years ago and instead of receiving hugs instead is being treated as if he actually committed a crime. Even sane individuals have violent thoughts, he did the right thing not acting on them and dealing with his trauma in his own way. Isn't this the era of coming out, mental health and all that stuff? If it's a grey area matter, speaking up is prohibited.

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[–] [deleted] 6 years ago

You're right, in theory.

But look at the likes of ThreadKiller. They're now going to boycott Neeson's films on account of this interview.

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[–] HarlemEagle42 (17855) 6 years ago

Possibly. Until the next big shot sticks their foot in their mouth.

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[–] Threadkiller (3080) 6 years ago

His career won't be significantly affected at all and certainly not for long. This controversy will blow over quickly and it won't take another unprovoked celebrity confession of a planned racist murder fantasy of random black men.

Have you ever heard of any very famous & successful Hollywood actor's career taking a major hit, let alone ending over anti black racism? Yeah, me either.

The likes of MalkovichMalkovi are many. He'll be fine as there are way too many fans in denial, set on rationalizing it to Neeson's benifit or simply don't care along with the standard sws racism apologists more than eager to overlook this.

Most importantly in Hollywood there is no significant element of executive power weilded by black people to influence careers/dispense punishment in a way Neeson would be an instant outcast if his horrifyingly bigoted murder plot senerio had replaced "black bastard" with "Jew bastard" or "homosexual bastard".

Had he gone there even after an extensive & mandatory groveling apology tour his career would never be the same if it survived at all. Lucky for him though he didn't kick that hornet nest.

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[–] earl237 (1106) 6 years ago

I think it will blow over, other celebrities have recovered from worse things. I think he's already semi-retired anyway. He's pretty well-liked so I think fans will forgive him.

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