Terrorists are not from the Middle East, they are just termed that. Anyone, who has any motive to instill fear in a group of people, are terrorists.
Why are terrorists from the middle east ?
They aren't always. There are plenty of home-grown terrorists born and raised in the country they terrorize.
It's much more complicated than that... There's no excuse for blowing up innocent people... but a lot of this frustration stems from American and European foreign policy
http://www.nbcnews.com/news/world/u-s-bombed-iraq-syria-pakistan-afghanistan-libya-yemen-somalia-n704636
The U.S. and its allies as well as the Russians have used the middle east as their own personal weapons testing playground for decades. The superpowers sell arms to both sides and make billions if not trillions of dollars. A lot of people get caught in the middle of this game... and it makes people very angry.
Now the eight year old girl deserved none of this crap... but we need to rethink our foreign policy and stop playing with other people's lives. No nation or race holds the monopoly on violent behavior. We all have committed atrocities at some point... and instead of escalating we need to stop feeding the greedy military industrial complex and start spending the money on healthcare and education instead.
But, hey, congrats on that Saudi Arabia arms deal! That's $110 billion worth of "democracy" right there.
shareThat's such a simplification. Ask any muslim about American and European foreign policy and they just tell you some nonsense they heard in mosque or read on the internet. Like it or not, it's always been a part of their culture. Different factions have been using their own people to play off against others, especially outsiders, to gain power. It started with the tribes and then it became about religious schools, the Jews, Americans, Europeans, etc. And who are easier to manipulate than those with mental illness or an identity crisis due to their failure to integrate into Western society?
I mean, just look at the foreign policy of Middle Eastern countries, who support terrorism abroad and blackmail us into buying their oil. You don't see us going around blowing up innocent people. And we've got every reason to be upset.
That's not to say that Western interference doesn't worsen things, but look at Syria. First they were crying because we weren't helping them out and now they're crying because we ARE helping them out. My opinion, let them solve their own problems.
I clearly said "No nation or race holds the monopoly on violent behavior"... what the terrorists did was wrong full stop... but what would we Americans do if a nation that wanted our natural resources kept bombing us constantly and making huge profits by providing arms to us and our enemies. I love the United States, but that's not going to stop me from seeing what responsibility we have in this situation. These people have literally been driven to madness by horrible foreign policy decisions... I'm not excusing their attacks on innocents... I'm only explaining that the most logical way to stop this is to stop bombing and exploiting their homelands rather than demonizing their people.
share"but what would we Americans do if a nation that wanted our natural resources kept bombing us constantly and making huge profits by providing arms to us and our enemies."
If you're smart, you would do the same as Saudi Arabia. Sponsor terrorism around the world and force all nations to buy your oil. What would those muslim countries do if we went to live there and started blowing up innocent people in the name of our ideology?
"These people have literally been driven to madness by horrible foreign policy decisions"
Mostly by their own governments. But how about the muslims that grew up in America and Europe??? Not all of these terrorists are from countries that were actually bombed by the West. How about us Westerners being driven mad by all these terrorist attacks? And still, we've been able to control ourselves for the most part. If anyone should stop and take a good look in the mirror it's muslims who kill or condone killing innocent people. Are they capable of being critical of themselves just like we are?
"I'm only explaining that the most logical way to stop this is to stop bombing and exploiting their homelands rather than demonizing their people."
Unfortunately, it's not. This kind of nonsense has been going on for centuries in those countries. The only thing I can agree with is that we should get the hell out of there and let them stew in their own juice so we might become less of a target. But the powers that be have clearly something to gain from doing otherwise.
Stalin, Hitler, Mao... killed millions yet why don't we think of Russians, Germans, Chinese as crazy maniacs? This is not during warfare... but on top of it... many of their own civilians.
http://www.popten.net/2010/05/top-ten-most-evil-dictators-of-all-time-in-order-of-kill-count/
The Japanese killed millions of Chinese
The Americans decimated the Native American population...killed thousands of Cambodians
I just posted a link printed by an American news organization how we dropped 3 bombs every hour on the Arab world that was considered a low estimate. Can you imagine how we would react if there were a terrorist attack every twenty minutes?
These terrorist attacks are wrong... but Westerners are doing the bulk of the attacking... this is not the Arab media reporting this... but our own news sources.
All races and peoples have good and bad people... but it is simply wrong to claim that the Arabs are more violent than anyone else.
I have no idea why you mention Mao, Hitler and Stalin. They're long dead and not muslim, so they don't explain current muslim terrorism.
"I just posted a link printed by an American news organization how we dropped a bomb every 3 hours on the Arab world that was considered a low estimate."
I'd like to point out several things:
1. This only concerns 7 (of many) muslim countries in the world (so no excuse for terrorists from other countries)
2. This only concerns the year 2016 (not clear how many people were affected in previous years)
3. These countries have muslim terrorist attacks on a daily basis and that's what those bombings are directed at (my guess is that the locals don't really like those terrorists and that those terrorists don't really like the locals either, even though they're muslim)
4. Most of these bombings were done with the cooperation of those and other muslim countries and the people in at least two of those countries asked (or pretty much demanded) military assistance from the West before any bombings took place.
"All races and peoples have good and bad people... but it is simply wrong to claim that the Arabs are more violent than anyone else."
I never claimed anything like that, I said that Western involvement in the Middle East is hardly the cause of muslim terrorism, only a contribution at the most. America's role in the bombings does not explain why countries like Belgium, Sweden or even Germany are targets. The most important reasons are to be found within the culture of those countries. Fact is, most terrorist acts these days, in muslim and non-muslim countries, are committed by muslims and we shouldn't just ignore that because all races or peoples have a black chapter in their history.
I pointed it out because some people look at the Arab world as if it's some kind of inherent flaw in their culture when other countries have killed way more people. In the United States... our prisons are filled with poor African American men who kill about 6000 people a year, almost exclusively amongst themselves. On the other hand the Germans killed several million Jews and Gypsies in five years. American blacks would have to kill for a few thousand years to equal the numbers killed by Europeans... yet somehow we think of them as intrinsically way more violent.
Wealthy people love to frame a boogeyman in order to take attention off of their own malfeasance. The terrorist in England was wrong and should be punished to the full extent of the law... but it is the rich who write history and the rich who control the media... and the fact of the matter is the West has killed way more Arabs than the other way around.
"it's some kind of inherent flaw in their culture"
It's a flaw NOW.
"yet somehow we think of them as intrinsically way more violent."
I can't speak for all of you, but perhaps it's because the nazis were only a select group of people with specific beliefs who did it for only five years.
"and the fact of the matter is the West has killed way more Arabs than the other way around."
Do you have statistics for every race or people throughout history so we can compare? You'd have to include every single death, not just the ones that are in your history book. And does death in battle count or only the taking of defenseless, innocent lives?
Fact is, Muslims are killing way more people now in the name of their ideology than Westerners are and that's a big problem
https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2016/03/25/world/map-isis-attacks-around-the-world.html
http://www.globalresearch.ca/us-has-killed-more-than-20-million-people-in-37-victim-nations-since-world-war-ii/5492051
Those statistics are VERY much incomplete. The first link only includes attacks by ISIS. A terrorist organization and a relatively new one. The second link concerns only the US in a period of 70 years and also includes deaths of soldiers and terrorists. And boy, are those numbers vague. Not only is it a problem that the two sources are completely different, the second one seems biased as hell. (The US is responsible for the deaths in a war of its Cold War nemesis? Well, then Saudi Arabia is certainly responsible for all deaths in America's war in Afghanistan! And I have family in Bosnia, I know all about the mujahideen from North Africa and the Middle East that were involved in that war). So we still have no idea how many Westerners Arabs (there are also Asian and African muslim terrorists by the way) have killed throughout history and vice versa, and in the name of some ideology at that.
It's a shame, though, that your missing my point.This is not about keeping tally, it's about the problems that are going on NOW. While I actually agree we should pull out of the Middle East, this won't stop the problem of muslims in Europe and the US who have failed to adjust and are fed with hatred by certain powers in muslim nations.
I don't understand why it's so hard to believe that the superpowers are more at fault than these small countries. It's like someone who'd rather blame the children for their misbehavior than the parents. Do you really think these small countries, just decided for no reason to attack someone that can easily crush them? They have absolutely no chance against the west... yet for some reason they have become so desperate that they are driven to near suicidal measures. Again, follow the money... does it make more sense that wealthy countries would engineer profitable wars to make money? Or that people suddenly would decide out of nowhere to attack nations that could destroy them with a single bomb?
shareSaudi Arabia a small country??? They are stinking filthy rich! What attacks by small countries are you talking about?
I'm not talking about attacks by any country, I'm talking about muslims who live among us, who were even born and raised in the West. Do you want to discuss the nationalities and backgrounds of all the terrorists who have committed attacks these last 15 years? Most grew up in Europe or the US and were not from poor, small countries that were bombed by the West. And they are not children, they are adults who should know better.
This latest guy's parents were apparently from Libya, he was actually born in Manchester. Now why the hell does he attack British kids? Was it the British who started the civil war, is it just them giving military assistance? Hell no. Libya is a pawn of many nations, including powerful muslim neighbours like Qatar. Why the hell do these terrorists never go there or to Saudi Arabia to blow people up?
Like I said, these communities have a culture that easily shifts the blame to outsiders and certain muslim factions use this to their advantage.
They are not much more than an American colony... without America's weapons they would be nothing.
I by no means tolerate any terrorist activity in either the U.S. or Europe... I'm merely explaining why this might happen. Do you think it was a picnic for these people growing up in an environment where ignorant people continue to blame them for the ills of the world? It's the chicken or the egg... sure maybe some become radicalized... but I'm sure many were treated as radicals and outsiders.
The irony of saying these communities have a culture that shifts the blame to others... look at the body count and you'll see where the blame mostly lies.
Who is an American colony? Libya? I don't think you understand what's going on there. Multiple powers are trying to gain control, it's not just the US.
I think you're ignorant about the position or lives of muslims in Europe. I grew up with a pretty large muslim community in my city, no one blamed them for all the ills of the world, even now there are plenty of apologists. What I have heard for many years, even before 9/11, is how the West is to blame for all the ills of the world. Children are being killed and still it's our fault. How do you think that makes us feel? Still, I don't see any Westerners blowing up muslims. I find it interesting how you so easily call it a problem of Western society and not their own. How do you know they even make an effort to integrate? They are given all kinds of privileges and opportunities and still they can't make it work where all other kinds of immigrants can. Many of these terrorists were involved in crime before becoming radicalized. And even though I despise the extremist attitude of many muslims, I treat every muslim I meet with respect and I've personally never seen anyone mistreat a muslim because of their faith. I'm not sure how you think they're being treated. The younger brother of the Boston Marathon bombers seems to have been pretty popular with his peers.
Yeah, I look at the body count and I see muslims killing more innocent people (even their own) than any other ideological group in the world. I would also like to point out that a society with one man killing a thousand is far less violent than a society with a thousand men each killing one. You can't compare the actions of the government of one nation with those of thousands of individuals all over the world.
You can say it over and over but it doesn't make it true... we've killed thousands of muslims... they have killed less. That's not to say we shouldn't be vigilant to prevent future deaths... but if we stopped bombing them and spent money on education and healthcare it would yield more productive results.
shareDo you happen to be muslim yourself , because that's the same kind of nonsense imams are preaching. Or are you just basing it on your flawed statistics? How many innocent people have actually died in these bombings as opposed to islamist fighters? You really think that the involvement of muslim organizations (not even counting governments) all over the world in terrorist attacks, war and conflict hasn't resulted in the deaths of tens of thousands of people? Even according to biased media like CNN and the Washington Post ISIS alone has killed more than 20.000 people in just Iraq and Syria in merely 2 years. And Boko Haram is responsible for 15.000 deaths in Nigeria over a period of 6 years. Stop fooling yourself, nobody is killing more innocent people in the name of their ideology than muslims. So far, no other ideological group has already killed 56 people this year in Europe. And what's even worse is that people who aren't even directly in conflicts are killing other people not directly involved in conflicts.
Yes, if only Belgium hadn't bombed Morocco! Oh wait...If we stop bombing (Saudi Arabia can pay for their education), then MAYBE we'll become less of a target, but it won't stop them from killing each other and there's no guarantee that certain factions in the muslim world won't use Western muslims against us for their own advantage.
Nope... raised Christian, American born and raised. I've cited some American sources while you haven't cited any to support your assertions. The only reason I've continued on with the thread is in the hopes that someone else is reading it because clearly you've already made your mind up. ISIS has killed innocents... but so has dropping thousands of bombs... so have American drone attacks. I've never excused ISIS for their attacks... I've said if we didn't meddle in other countries business in the first place, perhaps extremist groups would be less apt to form.
shareYou're sure you're not a convert?
But are you blind? I've cited CNN and The Washington Post to show that only two terrorist groups have already killed ten thousands of people in 6 years. You have not provided any sources that show how many muslims have died in bombings by the West and how many of them are innocent victims instead of islamist fighters or supporters. Your first link is incomplete and your second one is ridiculous. The list contains conflicts in which muslim organizations like the Taliban and goverments like Qatar and Saudi Arabia could be held responsible just as much or even more.You want me to list the numbers of every conflict in in history in which muslims were involved? That would take some time (which I'm not going to waste), but I guarantee you that the numbers are high.
I've "made up my mind" because I'm not falling for the tired old "excuses" I've already heard so many times before? The fact that your explanation for homegrown terrorism is the West throwing some bombs, shows your ignorance. Islamic fundamentalism existed way before that. I honestly hope that no one reads and believes your nonsense.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iraq_War_documents_leak
80% civilians killed by our own government's estimates.
Let me first say that I totally opposed the war in Iraq. While I certainly despised Saddam Hussein, there was no good reason to invade the country, and nor the US nor any other country had any business there. But I'd like to point out a couple of things about those leaked documents:
- 66.081 civilian deaths were reported by the United States Army (the 80% civilian deaths of more than 150.000 deaths is an estimate by The Body Count project).
- The term "civilian death" is not clarified in the Wikipedia article. It's not clear how or why these people were killed. The Body Count project also counts "insurgent military action, sectarian violence and criminal violence, which refers to excess civilian deaths caused by criminal action resulting from the breakdown in law and order which followed the coalition invasion." How many of these people may have been killed because they were collaborating with terrorists or insurgents? It's not clear.
-The Wikpedia article states more than once that there were at least "hundreds of reports" of murders by Iraqi police and soldiers.
-"The documents indicate that Iran was a major combatant in the Iraq war, as its elite Quds Force trained Iraqi Shiite insurgents and imported deadly weapons" and "show Iraqi operatives being trained by Hezbollah in precision military-style."
- A number of the documents "portrays the LONG HISTORY of tensions between Kurds and Arabs in the north of Iraq and reveals the fears of some American units about what might happen after American troops leave the country by the end of 2011."
So yeah, it's too simple to put the blame on the West alone. ISIS has already caused a civil war in Syria before the involvement of the West, so I guess it's also responsible for any civilian deaths caused by Western bombings?
But how many terrorists have actually been Iraqi? I believe Germany has some problems with Iraqi muslim extremists, but most have been from countries that were never bombed by the West.
My original point was that poor foreign policy choices by the Western superpowers destabilized the region allowing extreme groups to flourish. The creation of a power vacuum... albeit sometimes for honorable reasons made things worse for the average citizen. What about the West arbitrarily deciding to reinstate Israel on top of Palestine? I love the Jewish people... was engaged to a Jewish woman at one point in my life... but hasn't that also been a source of difficulty in the region? It came from an arrogant colonial power mentality that we can just push away these third world tribesmen and they have to accept our will.
I have said throughout our discussion that the terrorist is ultimately responsible for his or her evil actions... but I don't think its a stretch to say our policies have often been the catalyst in creating such an environment to flourish.
I'm definitely not a fan of the Israeli government and do not agree at all with how things were handled after WWII, but that would only explain any anger among Palestinians and Israel's neighbours with whom they've fought wars. Some terrorists have been Egyptian, but overall the relations between both countries have been peaceful. And how long does it have to take for the muslim world to just accept reality and the fact that Israel isn't going away? WWII, the Cold War and the fall of communism have brought much political and social unrest to Europe, but you don't see any Europeans today blowing people up as retaliation. The Serbs are still pretty pissed over Bosnia and Kosovo gaining independence, but right now there aren't any Serbian terrorists going to those countries to blow people up.
"It came from an arrogant colonial power mentality that we can just push away these third world tribesmen and they have to accept our will."
Remember the Ottoman Empire, anyone? Its army even reached the gates of Vienna. Or what about the Crusades? How do you think Jersulem fell into the hands of Arabs? Even the spread of Islam itself is the result of aggressive Arab expansionism. Now why do they single out the West? Especially when their own neighbours are much more involved in their politics.
'but I don't think its a stretch to say our policies have often been the catalyst in creating such an environment to flourish.'
Like I said several times, Western involvement in the Middle East may worsen things, for us especially, but a catalyst? No way. Even without Western presence, they would keep having conflicts with each other and others. And they WANT us to be involved, because they need us to buy their oil. It's certainly no coincidence that both the US and Saudi Arabia want Assad gone.
But still, what's the explanation for muslims born and raised in the West to go out and blow up innocent people in the name of their religion?
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Ever heard of the IRA? Or ETA? Or any number of non middle eastern terrorist organizations?
Plus, if you continuously bomb, attack and destabilise a region, you're gonna a) create a power vacuum that allows these organizations to gain power, and b) push a lot of people into their hands. It's not an excuse, but it's a reason. And the rampant islamophobia and marginalization doesn't help much with preventing homegrown radicalization.
Aha, so they don't share ANY of the blame, huh? So weird, there seems to be a rampant phobia of the West among muslims (so much so, that they're even blowing up children) and you don't see Westerners going around committing terrorist attacks against muslims, certainly not on such a large scale. There must be a different reason, it seems.
By the way, I haven't heard from the IRA or ETA in a long time. You know, the moronic thing about Western muslims committing terrorist attacks is that they're living comfortable lives in the West and can claim NON of the injustices supposedly suffered by those IRA and ETA terrorists. Apparently they're all doing it on the behalf of their brothers and sisters on the other side of the world instead. A thought I find utterly ridiculous, I don't see myself killing and dying for some white folks in New Zealand that I never met.
There are multiple reasons. This issue is not simple. And I never said they don't share any of the blame. I, for one, think that goes without saying. But is the "West" contributing to this mess? Yes it is.
And another thing. You know the moronic thing about Westerners joinging Ultra Nationalist Organizations is that they're living comfortable lives in their own countries and can claim non of the supposed injustices suffered by muslims (or whatever minority is the flavour of the month). Point is, if you're gullible, and want to start trouble, it doesn't take much for some self-righteous organization to suck you in.
And just to point out, giving a reason as to why something is, is not the same as excusing said something.
Oh yeah, Western ultra nationalist organizations are SUCH a big problem, especially those committing terrorist attacks...
I didn't exactly say you excused it, but if you try to explain it by mentioning Western terror organizations and only address Western foreign policy and put a lot of weight on people not being happy with Islam, that's basically blameshifting.
The fact that it's pretty much only muslims blowing people up, even though a lot of people in the world have crappy lives, already shows the reasons mostly have to do with themselves.
OP said "Why are terrorists from the middle east". I simply pointed out that there have been terrorist organizations in Europe as well. Is that false? ETA just recently disarmed themselves, and they were formed in the late 50's. ISIS is just starting. And the socio-political situation between Europe and the Middle East is very different. You have to take things like this into consideration.
Now, if you want to blow yourself up and kill people, that's only on you. No cause justifies that. But if we're going to stop these attacks, we have to look at all the contributing factors, no? Otherwise whatever we come up with isn't going to be effective.
If pretty much 99% of terrorists are muslims and other terrorists have hardly been active for the past two decades, it's a fair question.
Looking at contributing factors can help, but you won't solve anything if you don't look at the root of the problem. And that goes much more deeper than the West bombing Iraq and Syria.
>If pretty much 99% of terrorists are muslims
being a terrorist is not a bad thing. its pretty cool actually
They're not active because a lot has changed in Europe in the past 20-30 years. Also enough time has passed that the authorities have been able to deal with these organizations. I was simply saying that Europeans are capable of terrorism as well. It's not as relevant to the current state of things, but it gives historical perspective. You don't know who's going to be the next terrorists 50 years from now.
It does go deeper than just the West bombing the Middle East. But if you kick the hornet's nest, you're going to get stung. And that bombing also serves to push even more people into the terrorists hands. We're inadvertently helping their cause. They can say "See, they're bombing us, they're killing us. We should defend our believes and out culture." And some people bite, and join them. Some though, try to flee.
As I've said, it's a very complicated issue. And since we have no control over the terrorists' side of things, the best we could do is look at our own. Is that so unreasonable?
European terrorism like IRA and ETA, while despicable, is not exactly comparable to muslim terrorism. They were terrorists who wanted to change the political situation they were living in and for the most part did not target civilians. These muslim terrorists have grown up in the West and are part of the West and are killing people because of a conflict neither they or their victims have anything to do with. And it's happening on a much larger scale. The one thing these terrorists do have in common is that it goes deeper than just beating the "oppressor" and that they are basically all pawns in a bigger power game. But really, there's no need to bring up European terrorism just to be fair.
shareOf course European terrorist and Nationalist organizations aren't 100% comparable with muslim terrorists, because the circumstances are different. But they're comparable enough to see that that potential still exists here. Which is one part of my original point.
I don't see where else this discussion can go, since I don't think either of us is going to budge on their opinion. Let's agree to disagree and leave it at that.
Yes, let's leave it at that and wait for the next terrorist attack to happen. Maybe they'll turn out to be European nationalists...
shareLet's leave it, because you seem to be purposfully missing my point.
But, hey, if we continue, we just might fix Islamic terrorism... on a message board...
"Let's leave it, because you seem to be purposfully missing my point."
Not sure if there was an actual point to be missed.
"But, hey, if we continue, we just might fix Islamic terrorism... on a message board..."
If message boards can help create terrorists, why not.
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Yes, Trump is going to convert all of you!!! Bwuahahahaha!!!
share[deleted]
Sssh!
shareReported for racism
share