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Erniesam's Replies
it underscores my assumption that the two lived together at no.12. After Diane moved the detectives came by and the neighbor told Diane this when she told her about the missing items. So I believe the `hit` must have been longer than 3 week ago.
Another reason why I believe Diane and the neighbor lived together are the items themselves. They are important items to Diane and it would be wildly coincidental that the neighbor would have left them behind. There are dishes, a white table lamp and the ashtray. The dishes are tied in with the breaking of the dishes at the diner, but it´s a little too much to go over it now. Now the ashtray is clean and has no cigaret buts in it. It´s also in the shape of a piano. The table lamp is white in contrast to the red lamp we see several times. To me this suggests a pure and clean relationship (like beautiful music) in contrast to prostitution (red lamp, cigarette buts of `clients´) which I suspect Diane is doing to get by. So when Diane moves she takes these items with her, because they represent something very important to her.
`The coffee machine is a modern appliance, but Diane's fridge and stove seem to date back to the 1940's.`
To me this indicates that coffee is important to Diane. Notice how the mafioso rejected the coffee and was disgusted by it. It was something new the studio was offering, straying from their usual brand. To me this `new` coffee is a metaphor for Diane, who was ´literally´ puked out by Hollywood. The mafiosi behind the studio rather have their own choices pushed through. Even a brand new coffee machine can´t help Diane.
`So, if you believe that Diane had been dreaming all along and has finally awoken, you have to conclude that she's also hallucinating.`
`We only see the key on the coffee table when Camilla is NOT there.`
Most definitely. It´s clear that when Diane steps over the couch, she literally is stepping (back) into her fantasy. The disappearance of the blue key and the reappearance
`We can infer from context that the 'hit' occurred 3 weeks ago, and Diane has switched apartments to dodge the police.`
Here again we come to the apartment switching thingy. I believe this to be a pivotal scene and to me it´s the only scene playing out in reality (apart from the pov shot and the ending scene, although that scene is clouded by fantasy also). I don´t believe the `hit` occured 3 weeks prior. Notice what the neighbor says. `My lamp and dishes? Come on, Diane. It has been three weeks.`And later she mentions: `Those two detectives came by looking for you.` What has been 3 weeks? When Diane moved to no.17, the neighbor would not have noticed the disappearance of these items right away. Diane has put them in a box, so...the neighbor must have told her that she got these items from her AFTER the move of Diane. This could have been directly or over the phone. Now the neighbor cannot fault Diane for not noticing the items before she was told by her, so my assumption is that these `3 weeks` refer to the time that the neighbor told Diane about the items. We don´t know how much time has past between the move and this talk, but there surely must have been some time between them.
We know that Diane knows of the detectives since the neighbor says `those.` We also know that the neighbor knew of them. The question is: did they come by while Diane was still living there (so that this would be the incentive for Diane to move) or did Diane move prior to that? It´s difficult to answer, but we can ask some relevant questions. WHY would Diane tell the neighbor the police is looking for her? IF the police came by while Diane was still living there, than where was she? In her present depressed condition it is unlikely she was out. Despite the fact that I have another view on who these detectives are, I´m inclined to say that Diane was already moved when the detectives came the first time. Since I find it unlikely that Diane would have told the neighbor,
why Adam must cast Camilla Rhodes: because she got the part in reality. All during the fantasy reality is creeping in dictating to the mind of the dreamer to steer towards reality.
`In fact, from my point of view, the whole movie deals with the dreamer trying to see the truth, but he/she is unable to do so, because it is simply too upsetting.`
Are you sure the dreamer is trying to see the truth? Isn´t the creation of a suppression fantasy an active act of not wanting to face the truth? I don´t believe the dreamer is trying, it´s simply the reality creeping in which she is unable to suppress. Or, taking your view into account, the psychoanalysis the dreamer is going through is working. When it is this that is doing the trick, what do you make of Diane committing suicide? Is this a breakthrough in the psychoanalys or a blowback?
`The use of POV is an important clue.`
It´s clear you are convinced of this and it´s reasonable to think this when you can incorporate it in your own view. It isn´t a major issue to me, since I believe it is just to hide the identity of the dreamer, so that the second half comes as a surprise to the audience. I see no neccesary other reasons to hide the identity of the dreamer in order for the dream - reality structure to work. Mind you, I don´t believe the second half is reality, only closer TO it.
The ylived together at no. 12 because that´s where the `detectives`came by to look for Diane. Now the move of Diane to no.17 is easier to explain, though we lack the evidence to back anything up properly. Maybe Diane and DeRosa had a relationship and that went sour due to Diane´s (in your case the Dreamer´s) depression. This could explain the ring on Diane´s finger, maybe it was an engagement ring or indeed wedding ring. This ALSO explains why Diane didn´t move far away, due to her mental state at the time. She wanted to be alone rather than escape the police. Her deteriorating mental health caused by her failure in Hollywood would indeed mess up the relationship, wouldn´t you say? And this explains why the neighbor is so patient with and worried about Diane, because she still loves her despite the quarreling. I find more clues which make me come to this conclusion, but they aren´t relevant just now.
`When Rita sneaks into Aunt Ruth's apartment, we see a man helping Aunt Ruth put suitcases in the back of a cab. Now, think like Freud. A man and woman carrying baggage. That means someone is pregnant.`
It could be a metaphor for pregnancy, but I cannot see the connection within the larger frame. What do you think of the older man at the airport bringing the luggage? Do you think this too signals pregnancy and if so, how do you fit this in your view?
To me the striking similarity between these two scenes is that whenever Rita or Rita and Diane witness this woman, she is leaving. In fact we never see any interaction between Aunt Ruth and them (except for the phone call with Betty, but we never hear Aunt Ruth´s voice there, do we?) and both of them seem to be afraid of her for some reason. It seems like they cannot coexist, like Aunt Ruth isn´t real. Like a untruth.
`We have no idea what they are doing there or why Adam MUST cast Camilla Rhodes in his film. But we DO know that someone is not happy.`
At the time we don´t know what´s going on, but at the end we know
Wow, lots to go through here. I try to reply to most things you brought up. For some weird reason you seem to only be able to add a certain amount of text at a time, so it will be multiple posts. One question to begin with: where does your interest in psychology come from?
`Actually, it looks as if Betty is the better actress. Other than make out scenes, we never see any convincing evidence that Rita can act. This is where the 'prostitution' hypothesis comes into consideration. Did Rita/Camilla sleep with somebody to get ahead?`
My point is that it´s very difficult to take anything at face value since we are dealing with an unreliable narrator, whether you consider this to be the (anonymous) Dreamer or Diane as dreamer. It seems that we are in agreement that what we see is a fantasy of the dreamer to suppress something awful. Now let´s say that the dreamer wanted to an actress in Hollywood, wouldn´t she imagine herself to be an incredible actress? And wouldn´t she downplay the abillities of her rival? Indeed, wouldn´t she make it so that her rival had to sleep with the director to get the role she so desperately wanted?
`It seems that Diane is trying to dodge the police, but I think the crime drama aspect of the movie is just a 'red herring'. I must confess, however, that I can't think of any psychoanalytical explanation for why the neighbors switched apartments.`
This switching of apartments has become of vital importance in my reading of the movie. This seemed very odd to me from the get go, but thinking about it has led me to the conclusion that it goes to the heart of the movie itself. Let me try to explain this.
IF Diane was to escape the police, why would she move to an apartment close by? Moreover, WHY would the neighbor agree to it, when all the apartments there are alike? Wouldn´t she found it odd to switch with no apparent reason? So, assuming they did NOT switch apartments, there´s only one viable alternative left: Diane and the neighbor lived together at no.12
`Dan tells Herb at Winkie's that he had his dream twice. We see lots of things in duplicate. Duplicate apartments, both Rita and Diane ride in the back of the limo on Mulholland Dr., we see the cowboy twice,`
Yes, MD is often compared to Persona for good reasons. Lots of duplicates, but also triplicates. With this I mean that it´s not black and white, but grey with lots of gradual transitions the way I see it. Rita just doesn´t become Camilla overnight, we first have the made-to-loo-like-Betty/Diane Rita. We have Betty-Diane seen through Betty´s eyes-Diane transition.
We see the cowboy 3 times: when he speaks to Adam, when he wakes up Diane and at the party.
`So, what has Diane done that is so wrong? She failed to fulfill her desires. That's why she's in pain. That's why she's ugly, and that's why she wished she were dead.`
The cowboy first shows up in the waking scene and later on at the party. So somewhere in between these two instances Diane must have done something bad. So do you think that between these scenes we get to see her doing bad in that it depicts her being miserable and failing to fulfill her desires? And what do you think her desires are?
`Betty is the dreamer's ego ideal; the person the dreamer would like to be.`
Do you mean that Rita would like to be Betty? And that when Camilla turns out to be the real moviestar she has accomplished this? Do you consider this to be one of the unfulfilled wishes of the dreamer?
You say that because of unfulfilled desire the dreamer feels miserable and wishes she was dead. How do you interpret Diane ordering the hit on Camilla?
After this we see reality asseen through Diane´s eys with al the people from the dream with different personas and roles. You seem to suggest something else; that this `roleplaying` is displacement by the dreamer? If you suggest that the dreamer displaces the characters in order to suppress something, I guess that isn´t too much different from the classical interpretation. What according to you is the function of this displacement in regards to the dreamer?
`For example, Diane switched her apartment with her neighbor in Sierra Bonita.`
How do we know this is true? Do we consider the dreamer to be a reliable narrator? Can there be any reason the dreamer would lie about this? If we are indeed witnessing the dreamer´s unconsious, how can we be sure of anything?
`I don't know about you, but I see a vagina. It follows that Apartment 17 is a metaphor for the womb and the corpse is a metaphor for abortion.`
I have to say that is quite Original. No, I have never seen a vagina when watching that shot, but I guess Lynch could be so cunningly clever to sneak that metaphor in. I do think your logic is sound here after that assumption with the womb and abortion. So do you think that the dreamer had an abortion (maybe due to rape) and this dream is how she copes with that. Cause if you believe this, the dreamer must be a woman.
`However, if the dream begins in POV it seems to me that it should have ended in POV, but the suicide scene was not filmed in POV.`
This is only relevant when you consider the wole movie to be a dream. When you consider portions of it to be reality, the pov perspective has already been broken. This pov shot doesn´t have to be merely stating that it is a dream, it also designates the protagonist.
`3) You see familiar faces in dreams, but you rarely, if ever, see your own.`
Though it is an old and often used trope in Hollywood movies, most famous example being The Wizzard of Oz. In movies people dream all the time about themselves.
´Your task is to figure out what the dream means.´
´If you look carefully, you'll see sexual innuendo almost everywhere in the film.´
So you believe that the dreamer essentially is in psycho-analysis and that the point of the movie is to figure out what the ´problem´ is? I guess in this view one has enormous freedom to interpret the movie and this view is possible. Yet even in this view you have to make the connections and come to some sort of conclusion.
Yes, there are many sexual references which would at least mean something, right? You reference Freud alot and also mentioned Lacan. Are you a psychology student or just particular interested in psychology? To be honest I´m not really a fan of Freud with his take on `everything stems from sexual frustration.` I have to admit I´m not that familiar with his work nor with psychology in general, but it seems to me that looking at the movie from a psychological perspective or any particular perspective does restrict ones vision. I know it´s very difficult to look at things objectively, because biases and past experiences have the nasty habit to jump in. Perhaps methodology is what I´m striving for.
As for the sexual references all through the movie: I guess Freud would have a field day with it. What do you make of these references? Do you see them as repressed childhood fantasies that are bubbling to the surface? Do you see references to prostitution maybe? Do you believe they play a vital role in the deciphering of the dream?
´Freud would call this displacement, which is changing one image into another. We see examples of it almost everywhere we look in the film.`
So what does Freud mean by displacement and what is the function of it? We see this indeed all the time and in many different forms in the movie. The most common and classical interpretation is that the dream upwards to opening the blue box represents reality in a distorted form.
I can see you really love this movie and have thought about it extensively. I guess you can see the movie any which way you want, judging by all the wildly different interpretations out there.
You seem to put the emphasis on the dream and the dreamer. We see someone putting her - his head on the pillow heavily breathing and we assume that what we see after that is a dream. Since dreams draw heavily from our unconscious one might also say we see the person´s unconsiousness at work. We also see Diane waking up from the exact same position as we have seen the corpse lie in the dream. To me that seems to suggest that there is a connection between the two. This in itself can also be interpreted in wildly different ways.
You seem to interpret the ending, when Diane shoots herself, as being still part of the dream. Can you tell me why you believe this is still a dream?
The Cowboy tells Adam that `You´ll see me one more time when you do good. You´ll see me two more times if you do bad.` So what is it according to you that the dreamer has done that is bad?
When one commits suicide you don´t die right away. It takes a while. So the faces we see after Diane´s suicide and the blue-haired lady are still fragments of her mind.
Yes, we do not see the person who goes to lay on the bed in that POV shot, but there are plenty of references within the movie to suggest that this is indeed Diane. We see Diane waking up and we see Diane dying on the bed. When Diane shoots herself at the end clearly she´s not dreaming; hallucinating yes, but not dreaming. Well, if you really wanted to you can suggest that ALL of MD is a dream, but that will take the gutwrenching emotional punch out of it.
I don´t believe that something that begins with a pov shot should end with one, certainly not when we see the protagonist waking up later in the movie.