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Erniesam's Replies
Do you think we should post under a new thread or post, because the writing space is getting very small.
Have you seen Inland Empre yet? Are you familiar with the work of David Lynch in general? I recommend this movie, though it is somewhat a different beast than MD. The first time I saw it, like with many of Lynch´s movies, I simply hated it. It took me about three or four times to finally finish watching it for the first time. I started thinking about it, talking about it with friends, searched explanations and theories online. Gradually I came to love it. Storywise it follows a similar line as MD, though way more cryptic I would argue. It is shot on handheld dv and it takes time to get used to. Now I actually love this style, cause it gives the movie an immediacy and directness.
Anyway, I hope you have seen it or will see it. Here we can discuss MD which is moreb than enough.
"Well stop for a lil' second and think about it."
To me it seems the Cowboy is speaking directly to the Dreamer. The Cowboy says that YOU determine to a large extent how your life will be. Adam / the Dreamer agrees, but since the life of the Dreamer is such a mess (or at least her mental health) it seems she doesn´t care about the good life. The Cowboy places the responsibillity of the Dreamer´s state with her (inactions).
Adam reacts very nonchalantly probably imitating the real attitude of the Dreamer. The Dreamer (or conscious) doesn´t want to face her troubles, so she is snarky about taking advise that encourages her to do exactly that. The Cowboy, some part of the subconscious that `knows` what´s the right thing to do tries to get the Dreamer to face these problems. I view him as the symbol of a ´man´s man´ saying the dreamer should `man up.`
About Aunt Ruth: you don´t believe that the woman we see leaving at the Sierra Bonita apartments is Aunt Ruth? She looks the same and is played by the same actress. Who do you think she is?
My question is: is their chronology in dreams the way we understand it rationally? Is their a system to our subconscious? It seems to me that what´s the most pressing in one´s subconscious at a certain moment, that will come out in dreams and thoughts. In the conscious it would be in the form of pondering or talking about it alot. In the subconscious through dreams. Now, would dreams depict the most pressing thing and than the next pressing thing and so on? Or...the most pressing thing and than make associations? And than associations based on what?
The one thing we can all agree on is that dreams take a certain amount of time. So...we can conclude that there is an order in the depiction of aspects. With this I mean one at a time with a certain overlap due to the mixing of aspects. They have to be one at a time otherwise we could not remember, recognize and interpret our dreams.
My point is that I don´t see the need nor the opportunity to connect scenes in dreams in place or time. You can argue about that when considering the reality of the Dreamer, but a dream follows it´s own logic outside of reality as we experience it.
That said I don´t consider that MD follows dream logic, but rather the mental process of the Dreamer. So here we have to consider that one aspect of the conscious triggers another aspect of the subcobscious and on and on. I see a conscious effort of the Dreamer to lose herself in her own fantasy, while her subconscious or reality is catching up with her.
---I know she becomes Rita after the accident, but I'm still not sure who she was before the accident.---
You state that you consider Rita and Betty related as two sides of a coin representing an aspect of the Dreamer, while you are not sure about Camilla and Diane. Here is where our views differ slightly, yet this difference leads to a huge one when our overall views are concerned.
I see a direct connection between ALL the characters in the dream sequence and the ones in the second segment. So I view Betty as the fictionalized version of Diane and Rita that of Camilla. That way I see a direct correlation between the murder attempt in the car and Diane orchestrating a hit on Camilla. You see, I view the woman in the car as being Camilla. So when Diane is taking her ride on Mulhollan Drive in the second segment, she in fact is taking the place of Camilla. And it is Camilla who meets her and is taking her `up the garden path.` She is manipulating and using Diane, just like Diane has experienced it in real life.
Was Camilla indeed an actress? Was Diane indeed trying to make it in Hollywood? We don´t know, because all the info we get is through the Dreamer´s eyes. We only can interpret what the Dreamer let´s us see and we cannot make any certain statements about reality.
---I would place this event at the same time the hitman shoots three people in the Ed's office.---
Interesting. You really make very different connections than I do. I can see your points about guns and looming threat, but I can´t see why this makes you think these two scenes play out simultaneously. When you consider this to be a dream different scenes can depict the same emotion or aspect of the Dreamer´s trauma. So different aspects out of the subconscious are ´visualized,` but can we conclude WHEN certain scenes played out? We can establish different connections between scenes.
I have to say that I´m enjoying this conversation. Not only do I learn another way of looking at the movie, but it also makes me think about my established view. Well, it keeps evolving with each new interesting aspect that somebody points me to that I haven´t thought of before. It is difficult to discuss different views, because they represent paradigms. Moreover, each paradigm has it´s own language, while we are conditioned in our own way of thinking and seeing the world. Despite this we can however discuss the validity of certain interpretations by looking for the logic in the overall view. Everyone has their own interpretation of the movie and we should encourage people to come to their own conclusions and enjoy the movie the way they see fit. The joy in the discussions for me is to find out new things and learn different aspects and perspectives.
---Lynch gave the cards one last shuffle, as if the plot wasn't already convoluted enough.---
Do you think that this ´one last shuffle´ has a point to it? Personally I consider the second part to be of integral importance to the story of the movie. Not only does it she dlight on what went before, it culminates in a logical and satisfying emotional conclusion. Since you view it as a dream from start to finish, do you see any progression in it?
---It's the ego, represented by Adam, that tries to repress things. The subconscious, represented by Mr. Roque, is the part of the psyche that wants to bring the truth to light.---
We seem to be in agreement here. I too see a struggle bewteen two opposing sides; you call them the ego and the Id, I would call it the conscious and the subconscious of the Dreamer. I guess we are talking about the same things.
---After the events at Club Silencio, the dreamer moves further into the past,---
---Rita's demand may simply reflect her desire to be the center of attention---
You say that the segment after the opening of the blue box is further into the past. I have a couple of questions about this.
1. If it´s Rita´s desire to be at the center of attention and indeed be Camilla, does this mean that she at one time was Camilla but became Rita due to the resurgence of the trauma? Does this mean that the ending of the movie is in fact the beginning of the resurgence of the Dreamer´s trauma?
2. The Cowboy says to Adam that he´ll see him two more times when he does bad. Well, we know that Adam doesn´t see him anymore, so the Cowboy must have been talking directly to the Dreamer. My point is that we DO see him a second time, but it´s in the second segment. How can this segment precede the first when a `prediction` come true in the second?
---This event corresponds roughly to the point in time where Rita showed up in Aunt Ruth's apartment, just when Aunt Ruth was getting ready to leave. The man and woman that Betty and Rita saw correspond to Aunt Ruth and the cab driver.---
You don´t think that the woman Betty and Rita see leaving IS Aunt Ruth? You take this `leaving` event the key to place the corpse right AFTER the murder? What is the reason these two scenes are so far apart in the movie?
What do you think is the significance of this woman / Aunt Ruth walking out of this apartment and Diane living in apartment no. 17?
---I agree. There's the dreamer---
You believe the Bum represents the Dreamer self? I s it because you presume the Dreamer is depressed due to the witnessing of the parents having sex? Or because of the loss of the Ego? The Bum represents the Dreamer´s actual state of mind?
---The trauma is caused by the child's instinctive desire to have sex with her own father.---
Instinctive desire? So because she had this desire she is so shocked to find her parents having sex? Than the real culprit is this desire and not the trauma and henceforth you put the blame in and all of itself on her. Is it this trauma that is bothering her OR does she blame herself for `causing` this trauma?
---The blue box magically appears just after the magician finishes 'mind fucking' Betty. So, somehow the blue box represents birth, perhaps Rita's birth.---
Why do you think it is Betty that the magician is `mind fucking` and not Rita? Do you consider the magician and Betty recreating the actual act of the Dreamer´s Parents and Rita watching it? Now, when it is the Dreamer´s instinctive desire to have sex with her father, than why does she imagine her father to be the perpetrator and her mother to be the victim? Would,´t she imagine these roles to be reversed?
---So, it's as if Rita somehow got split into two people. Just like yin and yang, they go together as a matching set.---
This suggestion indicates that there is a positive and a negative Camilla. How do you consider them in this light and how do you view the kiss at the party?
---Betty/Diane who seems to be the 'odd man out'.---
Well, Blonde Camilla also didn´t have a partner, at least none that we know off.
---On the other hand, she's Rita the movie star, who slept with more than one director on her way to the top.---
So you assume that Rita is indeed Camilla?
---We can't tell which of the two girls is Diane, if either one actually is, and we don't know who answered the phone.---
What do you mean by we don´t know who Diane is? We indeed don´t know who answered the phone, but the importance in this scene is that Rita believes she recognizes the voice, whether it´s Diane or not. I believe it´s left ambiguous on purpose in order to highten the mystery and not to reveal who the corpse in no. 17 is.
---Basically, junior witnesses his parents having sex. Since Junior does not understand sex, he things Daddy is beating up Mommy.---
With this in mind, how do you interpret the audition scene?
---If it's provactive, it's object a. Lacan's point is that object a is not really what you want.---
Is it possible to have more than one Object A´s? Is it inherently linked to the loss of the Ego and can this Object change over time? Or rather that when you think you´ve found it, got disappointed and ´create` another Object A? Isn´t it essentially an eternal search just for searching sake? Just to have a goal on a subconcious meta-level? To occupy once mind in order to avoid the unbearable emptiness of being?
La Llorona is indeed an interesting folk tale. In what way do you think it is relevant to the Dreamer and the trauma?
Notice also the lyrics of the Orbison song. It´s about a loss of love which I believe is very pertinent to the overall story of MD.
What do you believe the meaning of the use of Spanish is? And what about the colors red and blue? Do you think they have a particular function?
Just curious how you view all these aspects.
You stated that the Boogie man represents the black dot and the headlights of the car causing the crash the white dot in the yin and yang symbol. Yet this symbol is about polar opposites, right? How do you consider the headlights to be positive?
---At Winkie's, Rita's mind is split into conscious and subconscious divisions, represented by Dan and Herb, respectively.---
I think that this is the commonly accepted interpretation of them. Indeed the patient with his psychiater is a real life symbol of this. This Boogie man you could call indeed the Shadow within the Dreamer´s subconscious. But is the Dreamer really afraid of this Boogie man or rather the content of the Blue Box? I mean this Boogie man represents the thing the Dreamer is trying to suppress, which we only come to find out at the very end. To me it seems that there is a progression from denial, to partial denial to reality. Do you agree with this?
---Adam has been repressing the image of Camilla Rhodes for far too long---
Why would Adam repress this image? Don´t you believe it is the Dreamer who is repressing this and that Adam is just the persona the Dreamer is using for this?
---Rita is not simply a figment of the dreamer's imagination. She must have some connection to the dreamer.---
Do you think only Rita has some connection to the Dreamer or other personas as well? Personally I think that all characters represent some aspect of the Dreamer´s subconscious or are involved in certain scenarios that depict the Dreamer´s trauma. Moreover, ALL personas have to be based on real life characters as far as their appearance is concerned. You cannot picture someone whom you have not seen. Though you could assemble a persona from aspects from different people in reality. My point is that there must be a reason why the Dreamer `picks` these personas.
---However, even though Rita has no conscious recollection of what happened, the memory of the event is still in her subconscious, and she is recalling the event in her dream.--
Along with Rita I assume you believe that the Dreamer herself is trying to recall the event. And you believe this event to be the car accident, although this could be a metaphor for something else. In this light I understand why you interpret these scenes this way and it actually makes sense.
Regarding this scene I have two questions: 1/ What do you make of this assassination attempt on the girl in the car? 2/ WHAT do you believe is the actual trauma of the Dreamer?
---Rita is sleeping under the kitchen counter in Aunt Ruth's apartment at the same time incident occurs at Winkie's.---
We see these four scenes while Rita is sleeping. We see Rita after her sleeping untill the opening of the Blue Box. Since according to you Rita has a strong connection to the Dreamer, what do think is the relevance of these scenes in relation to Rita and the Dreamer? WHY do we see Rita disappear when she has such a strong connection to the Dreamer?
---Dan's collapse parallels the ego death Rita suffered during the accident---
You believe the accident represents the loss of ego of the Dreamer in real life?
I really like your observation of that scene where Aunt Ruth wears the same clothes as the day she went on a trip. I always had trouble interpreting this scene and couldn´t figure it out. Thanks to you it finally fits in my view.
Without considering my point of view, I guess we can conclude that this means that this scene takes place BEFORE her trip and therefor BEFORE the existence of Rita. She only came into existence when she invented the name in the apartment. It´s also BEFORE Rita and Betty met. This means that this scene ERASES Rita completely and we do indeed not see Rita anymore after that. Yet the assassination attempt was still thwarted by the accident. It´s telling that this was NOT erased by this scene, so this must be true, right? Are both true or just one? I believe that that is the question here.
I don´t know about gender reversal. I see more the stubborness of Adam coming to light. He refuses any outside help and suggestions and it´s like he has to go through misery due to his own fault in order to be persuaded. It´s like he is forced by the subconscious of the Dreamer to do the right thing. I get your point about the reversal, but what stands out to me is the fact that Adam seems to get progressively more mild: the first time we see him he is very angry and the last time he is actually laughing (for the first time) at the party.
---Quite simply, the id shows the ego an image of something it desires, and the ego's task is to fulfill this demand.---
Okay, makes sense. My question is: what does this accomplish? What is the reason why the id wants this girl? Moreover, when Adam is shown the picture, he and the audience sees another girl. Why does the id show this girl while Adam / the ego gets another girl to fulfill this demand?
---While she's asleep, Rita somehow contacts Mr. Roque, and few phone calls later, Betty magically appears.---
You talk about Rita as if she has a will of her own. Do you see her as the alter ego of the Dreamer or does she represent a specific aspect of the Dreamer? Is it Rita and therefor the Dreamer who wants to contact Mr. Roque / the id in order to face the truth? If so than why has the Dreamer concocted this elaborated fantasy?
You believe that Rita is looking for her mother? Does she know who her mother is? Rita herself has amnesia, so she wouldn´t know, I guess, but the Dreamer?
---This means that the individual ACCEPTS the fact he/she cannot have the lost object---
Do you believe that the Dreamer has lost the mother or do you think that the lost object is indeed something the Dreamer has identified with the lost mother / person?
---In other words, Rita did not completely lose her memory simply because of a concussion. She lost her mind, because she could not face the truth---
Are you talking about the persona Rita or the Dreamer?
You say it could be a lucid dream, but does it have to be that? Could it be that the Dreamer has pondered about this assasination (whatever it might be symbolising) and wished it hadn´t happened? Therefore she fantasizes about it and since this is occupying her mind, she incorporates this in her dreams.
---Rita suffered from ego death. That is, her conscious mind was completely wiped clean, leaving only her subconscious. She then had to reconstruct a new ego.---
This I find pretty interesting. The Dreamer is fantasizing about not having an ego, so that she can create her own? Her lost object is perhaps her ego and she is trying to get it back?
Do you consider Diane to be a continuation of Betty and Camilla of Rita? If so than what the Dreamer ends up with is the ego of Camilla which, at least through the eyes of Betty, isn´t a nice one. She also ends up being dead (as Camilla). What do you think has been resolved by this dead if anything?
---Yet, what I'm seeing is some sort of gender reversal. Normally, guys chase after girls, not the other way around. Cynthia seemed delighted to offer him a place to stay, which he politely refused.---
I believe that it is possible to have multiple interpretations of a movie or a work of art simultaneously. We are perhaps programmed to have only one, since we only have one viewpoint. This however doesn´t mean that other viewpoints are possible and can be equaly valid and logical. Perhaps we prefer one viewpoint over another, but that can than only be based on emotional bias (considering other viewpoints are indeed equal in a logical sense). I´m only talking about interpreting art, not reality of course.
Though I have read many, many theories about this movie, i never came across one like yours. It is radically different than mine, yet I see no faults in it. Not that I´m looking for one, it just seems to fit in a way I never thought of before. It´s like looking at the movie through another lens. I find it fascinating.
---When Rita was sleeping, she was in the process of RECALLING the events that happened before she lost her memory.---
You state that the scenes of the Winkie diner, the murders, Adam finding out his wife cheating and Club Silencio are all Rita´s distorted recollections of the accident. How do you interpret these scenes in this light? I know you talked about the Club scene, where you describe the sexual aspect of the accident is mirrored in the shaking of Betty. How about the other three scenes? How do you interpret these as distorted recollections of the accident?
Do you think the accident is what really happened to the dreamer and that this is what she / he is trying to suppress?
---Fantasy stems from the subconscious desire to recover this loss object, and dreams are the means to fulfill this desire.---
Fantasy doesn´t always have to be connected to this loss object, does it? Maybe it is silly of me to say this, but Rita isn´t trying to recover her earring, is she? Do you believe the earring is a metaphor?
---And, the girls would never have even gone to the apartment if Rita hadn't have brought up the name Diane Selwyn.---
So do you think that this initiative of remembering the name Diane is a conscious effort of the Dreamer to face the truth? Remember that it is Betty who ism eager to go and that Rita is quite hesitant and afraid beforehand. So when you state that the alter ego of the Dreamer is Rita and not Betty, it explains the reason why Rita is upset and Betty not. Rita / the Dreamer senses something wrong, which is the subconscious bubbling to the surface and she is the one who´s upset since we know at the end that Camilla is dead. So if you believe Rita to be the alter ego of the Dreamer than what does Camilla´s death signify to you?
---So, we surmise that the corpse is Diane Selwyn. … ---We eventually learn that DeRosa won't collect her belongings for another 3 weeks, but at that time Diane will still be alive.---
Since Diane Selwyn is listed as the occupant of that apartment, we automatically assume it is her. This assumption is backed up by the fact that we see Diane waking up from that same position as the corpse is in. When the neighbor is asking for her stuff and says that it has been three weeks we must conclude that one of these two scenes is not true. What do you think is the significance of these two scenes? Why have the neighbor say and do different things in these two scenes?
Well, that´s how I interpret it anyway, since it fits perfectly within my overall view.
---This appearance corresponds to a point in time BEFORE Aunt Ruth had left and BEFORE Betty and Rita had arrived.---
This I find very interesting. I hadn´t noticed this about her clothes being the same. It could mean that she had returned from her trip, but I find your take on it more convincing; Aunt Ruth had´t left yet. Since she has got on the same clothes we must assume that it is on the same day as she is about to go on a trip. This means that we have gone back in time. Maybe Club Silencio has something to to with that?
A really nice observation by you, one that I will have to think about.
---Moreover, the incident at Club Silencio coincides with the moment when the accident happened on Mulholland Drive. This collision is yet another Freudian metaphor for sex.---
What do you mean by this? How can this incident and the accident occur at the same time? I agree with you that this incident, the shaking of Betty, is sex related, but I don´t see the connection with the accident as a sex related metaphor. Can you explain this?
---In other words, Betty is Rita's own wish. The girl that is missing is Rita's mom.---
---Except Betty is only an imaginary character. Aunt Ruth is Rita's real mother.---
I find this also really interesting. I never heard this idea as an explanation of the movie. So, Betty is Rita´s wishful mother, while Aunt Ruth is her real mother? If this is so, why would Rita hide from her mother? And why would she disappear in that later scene? I think the idea is fascinating, I´m just trying to figure out how it fits.
---Herb tried to help Dan confront his fear at Winkie's. Betty tried to help Rita rediscover her past. Both plans backfired, because the dreamer could not face the truth, culminating in Diane's suicide.---
So you see the Dreamer working through her own problems by creating this fantasy? And is she than in control of every persona in this fantasy or do you believe that her subconscious is interfering with this control?
---I'm starting to see a typical 'love em and leave em' guy, who finally gets pinned down. As I see it, Camilla is the one who got what she wanted, but I'm not sure if Adam did.---
Interesting. So you think it might be about Adam, or at least the `indifferent´ that gets hooked by Camilla? What do you think that this tells us or the Dreamer?
---But, it's also possible that Diane's depression is a RESULT of their separation. In any case, I find it odd that Rita seems to know Diane, but she doesn't recognize Betty. Moreover, DeRosa didn't seem to recognize either of them when they showed up at her apartment.---
Yes, it COULD be the result of their separation. I have a different take on that, but logically reasoned this certainly could be the case.
Rita seems to know Diane, but not Betty. In my take on the movie this makes perfect sense. Betty is the fictionalized version of Diane and Rita of Camilla. Through Rita we or the Dreamer sense reality or the subconscious creeping in. I see the movie as going from complete fantasy to reality, so gradually more and more snippets of reality are coming to the surface. Rita and Betty don´t know each other, because they both have been dreamed up by the Dreamer, while Diane, to stick to your take on the movie, is also just a persona in the Dreamer´s fantasy, but certainly closer to reality or rather towards the end of the therapy session..
DeRosa doesn´t know Betty, because it´s still quite early into the fantasy. Notice how she checks out Rita, as if she thinks: `Are you the raplacement of me?`
`The simple fact that Diane will soon be taking a long drive. As you can see, driving can have many different interpretations.`
Yes, taking a drive can be a metaphor for many things indeed. It all depends how it will fit within one´s view.
`According to Freud, the purpose of displacement is to disguise the truth, otherwise it would be too upsetting to the dreamer.`
In this case I guess we´re in agreement that the dreamer is a master in displacement. I believe the overal consensus is that what we see is a dream / fantasy unfolding that is designed to hide a painful truth.
Lynch himself believes that dreams and the subconscious are real, meaning they literally are a part of reality while they follow a certain logic that reason cannot comprehend easily.
Since you consider MD to be a dream or the subconscious of an unseen dreamer, how do you view this? It all playing in someone´s head or the result of a psychoanalysis, meaning with pushes and shuffs from the outside?
of the ashtray confirm this, along with Diane having on different clothes. In fact I believe that everything we see up until the final scene is still the fantasy of the dreamer, only closer to reality in the cold light of day.
Since the blue key symbols to Diane that Camilla is dead we can never see the key and Camilla together.
`Soon after her encounter with Camilla, we'll see Diane masturbating.`
Notice how before the masturbating scene Diane and Camilla had a fight and after that scene Camilla asks Diane to accompany her to Adam´s house. This seems to indicate that Diane is using masturbation as a way to continue her fantasy. To `feel good` as a metaphor to get that `good feeling` back in the fantasy. That´s, why she´s having so much trouble with it: it´s much harder to continue the fantasy during the day. Notice also the blurring of the image that we witness three times: during the masturbation scene and twice at the party. The period between the blurring is each time shorter than before. Each time the segment begins somewhat more positive than before in regards to Diane, but ends more negatively. Notice also the longer extended drumrolls at the end of each blur, signifying the increasing trouble Diane has to continue her fantasy. When ultimately the drumroll makes way for the sound of broken dishes: the fantasy has been smashed to pieces by reality.
`However, there is no red lamp in Diane's apartment. In fact, we have no idea where the lamp comes from. The other odd fact is that Camilla tells Diane that the car is outside her house, but Diane doesn't have a house.`
To me the red lamp indicates prostitution and in her fantasy Diane is repressing this fact about her life. We also see Diane living in beautiful houses in her fantasy, while in reality she lives in two room apartment. She suppresses her reality by making everything more beautiful.