Gene pool - Unorthodox (2020) Discussion

[–] Satan2016 (25823) 5 years ago

That's a huge gene pool. Polynesians spread out to over 15 islands, many less than that.

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[–] twinA (4921) 5 years ago

There's a really good book by rabbi Nicholas de Lange where he goes into detail about the Jewish people and their history, including some background on the origin of the Hasidic Jews. It's called "An Introduction to Judaism" (2000). In it the author states that the ultra-orthodox' very strong adherence to tradition is largely a reaction ironically, to oppression experienced against them by national and governmental authorities from many centuries ago, which forced their people to only live amongst themselves in order to survive as they were discriminated from doing things non-jews were allowed to do. Their goal is to essentially maintain their identity, culture, language, and way of life. This isn't meant as an excuse or a defense, just an observation.

Religion can do a lot of bad and a lot of good. I do want to point out though that it's not religion that is a cause of oppression, but can be taken advantage of by oppressive people.

~~/o/

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[–] Costumer (1829) 5 years ago

I've seen various numbers. However generally about 200 is sufficient if all are willing to breed and they vary partners.

Given that, 200,000 is more than plenty.

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[–] motorcycledriveb (303) 5 years ago

Gene pool is a good question that I don't have an answer to.

As to how you perceive them: the Hasidic community see the normal world as evil and oppressive, as we look negatively at them. They look at American/Gentile society as evil: abortion, pornography, childless men & women, rich vs. the poor, etc. American society is not at all stable, but chaotic. Whereas the Hasid community based upon stability and consistence.
The Hasids are very egalitarian and communal - all the men work minimum wage jobs with welfare checks helping them. So, there's that.

They technically have access to the world - I mean they live in Brooklyn, NY. They don't live on some farm/commune in the remote woods. There's no gates or fences. Plenty of Hasids have left the community - they're just really discouraged from leaving the Hasid community.

Do you know the history of the Jewish people? Or have any idea what their orthodox traditions entail? I don't think any authority will mess with them or regulate their strict community laws, based upon the stigma that they're Jewish and their history is full of expulsions/suffering.

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[–] Owlwise (1536) 5 years ago

The welfare checks is where many in the mainstream world will draw the line, I think. Whereas other self-contained religious groups, such as the Amish, will make a point of not accepting or applying for welfare, in keeping with their beliefs of non-involvement with the government.

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[–] motorcycledriveb (303) 5 years ago

"Many in the mainstream world" - who specifically is that? Anti-semites? The far right-wing? I know that the far right doesn't like welfare checks or the Jews, so I can see that for sure.

I don't understand the Amish fully. Do they pay taxes, even? The Hasidic Jews of Brooklyn are such a different type than the Amish. They are not the same at all. The Amish uses no technology at all - no cars, no electricity, no phone. The Hasidic Jews of Brooklyn do use flip phones, electricity, and cars. The Brooklyn Jews don't use the Internet or watch TV, but they do still use some technology as I just mentioned. So, I don't think the Amish and the Brooklyn Jews are comparable groups.

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[–] Owlwise (1536) 5 years ago

They're comparable in self-selecting out of mainstream society and living by their religious beliefs, I'd say.

And I don't intend or want my post to suggest anti-Semitism, which I loathe. My own politics are on the humanistic progressive side, in fact. What I'm talking about is any sort of enclave that rejects the common heritage of all humanity in favor of a narrow, rigid, conformist belief system. As I've said in another post on this thread, adults who willingly choose to live that life have every right to do so. But their children don't get to make that choice, and because of that, they're denied access to a greater, larger, richer world. Some might reject it even then. But some would welcome it and thrive in it, finding the chance to explore their full capabilities and possibilities as distinct and unique individuals.

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[–] motorcycledriveb (303) 5 years ago

We really don't have control of our upbringing or the environment we're born into. We don't own life, life owns us. Many people don't seem to understand that. All people (including you and myself) enter life through that vulnerable state - some people are born with severe disabilities that they didn't ask for and they cannot at all change that. That's worse than being a Ultra-Orthodox Jew or a member of the Amish. Life is life, it's not perfect. If you do think that you were born under unique circumstances - never forget it and be thankful for it every day. Give back the good that the world gave you.

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[–] exatera (3963) 5 years ago

They technically have access to the world

They don't watch TV though, or follow popular culture. As you saw in this series, the Satmars aren't even allowed to go on the internet.

A phenomenon like Matisyahu is possible precisely because he is baal-teshuva.

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[–] motorcycledriveb (303) 5 years ago

Right, okay.

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[–] Keelai (35270) 5 years ago

"all the men work minimum wage jobs with welfare checks helping them."

That's a stereotype. There are many who own businesses.

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[–] motorcycledriveb (303) 5 years ago

Ah, but that's also a common Jewish stereotype, lol.

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[–] Keelai (35270) 5 years ago

There are plenty of businesses run by the Hasidim where I live. I worked for two and used to work in a Hasidic neighborhood where practically all the businesses were run by them including the pizzeria.

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[–] motorcycledriveb (303) 5 years ago

I think Brooklyn is a cool place for the Orthodox Jews to live in. Seems appropriate. Near the water, near/in a very famous city.

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[–] Keelai (35270) 5 years ago

They live in other locations, too. I don't see how they enjoy any place with all the rules. LOL to Esty's reaction when Yanky told her he went to Europe, but only visited gravesites. I have a Catholic friend who went to Israel and only visited cathedrals since it was a church sponsored trip. What a waste!

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[–] motorcycledriveb (303) 5 years ago

Yeah, they're scattered around the globe, but Israel and Brooklyn have the largest amount of ultra-orthodox people, I think.

Esty was right, lol. I mean, it even says in the Torah that the High Priest should not go near dead bodies. But, the remains are completely wasted away in cemeteries after all that time, so maybe the uncleanness doesn't count. Although, some cemeteries in Europe can be interesting, I'm sure. Europe is one artsy place. I remember in a movie set in Vienna, the main characters checked out a cemetery along their explorations.

It's a waste if the person personally didn't enjoy it. I work at a grocery store, some people think that's a waste - but I enjoy my job. To each their own.

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[–] Keelai (35270) 5 years ago

I visit cemeteries too, but I wouldn't exclusively visit them if I were in Europe. Yanky wanted to see more so it was a waste for him. If he were a better husband, he could've taken Esty to Europe and visit many sites together. I plan to read the book to learn the real story.

Most people are miserable with their jobs. Don't worry about what other people think since you're happy in yours.

I just found a popular Israeli show about the Hasidim called Shtisel. I may watch this.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nxm5ZNCcIsQ&list=PLZbz1PGQbglSNNmrhT3ca58rgdGRyppiX&index=2

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[–] motorcycledriveb (303) 5 years ago

A movie that is about the Hasidim that I can recommend is Menashe! It came out in 2017.

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[–] Keelai (35270) 5 years ago

That movie looks great. I tried to see it when it was released, but couldn't find a theater. Thanks for the reminder.

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[–] exatera (3963) 5 years ago

Hard to believe this level of oppression and ignorance is legal.

Why wouldn't it be legal? There are many insular religious groups, it's up to them how they choose to live their lives. It would be strange for the government to get involved.

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[–] Owlwise (1536) 5 years ago

I think the original question was addressing the fact that their children are raised in deliberate ignorance of so much basic knowledge, from history to science to the humanities to respect for other ways of life. If parents deliberately crippled their children physically in accordance with their religious beliefs, they'd face legal consequences, and quite rightly so. But isn't mentally crippling a child just as bad? Many who have found their way out of the ultra-orthodox life are angry & shocked to discover just how much common knowledge was denied them, knowledge that a grade schooler is familiar with. And with the denial of that knowledge comes the denial of so many possibilities, the most important of which is the freedom to choose a life of one's own, rather than having another's life imposed on you.

The OP asked a valid & troubling question, it seems to me.

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[–] exatera (3963) 5 years ago

Well for instance, there aren't any religious schools, in any religion, that teach evolution - do you take issue with that as well?

I mean, I personally do find it extremely objectionable, but I don't see how they can be prohibited from doing so.

And what's "crippling" to us is pious upbringing to them. They would think that it's *our* minds that are all corrupted beyond salvation.

I mentioned in another topic that the first neighborhood our family ended up in when we came to the US was a Hasidic one, and it was all a shock to us as well. We basically "fled" as quickly as our financial circumstances allowed.

Although if they DIDN'T lead such an isolated existence, their attrition rates would have been much higher, and once again, that goes for any religion. Like, do you really think Muslims have access to anything, or fundamental Christians?

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[–] Owlwise (1536) 5 years ago

You have a good point, and I won't deny it. I'm just saying that I agree with the OP in being troubled, as I find the fundamentalist, isolationist wing of any religious or ideological belief system troubling. For those who choose it as adults, they have every right to do so. But children don't have any choice in it. Some may very well grow up happily in such a system; many no doubt do. But for those who feel imprisoned by it, life can be hell, especially if they understand that it doesn't have to be that way for them. Some find the strength to leave, some don't. And that can be tragedy.

I'm not pretending to have any easy answers here, just those troubling questions.

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[–] exatera (3963) 5 years ago

It's all much less troubling now, however, than back when the Church had actual power over people.

Well, I suppose you could say that Islam now is in the Crusades and the Inquisition type of stage.

At least Judaism doesn't proselytize.

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[–] Costumer (1829) 5 years ago

>>>Well for instance, there aren't any religious schools, in any religion, that teach evolution - do you take issue with that as well?<<<

I will take issue with this statement. I went to a conservative Catholic school (grades 1-8 and then High School) in the 1960s and 1970s and was definitely taught evolution. As well that evolution did not contradict creation.

I can't speak for other religions, but please don't paint all religious schools with the same brush.

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[–] Towelie_Towel (1779) 4 years ago

Of course it's a major issue if a religious school doesn't teach evolution.

Everyone is entitled to be free, but the country these people live in is a country that provides support and society integration to their citizens. Therefore, the citizens have to abide to the basic rules.

If a country is helping and supporting these people, giving them conditions to live, the minimum they should be "forced" to is get a decent education, so they can contribute back to the society they live in.

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[–] LemmyLugosi (411) 5 years ago

"Is there a point where freedom of religion has a limit?"

No, but there should be. Keeping folks ignorant doesn't do anyone any good.... except the ones doing the keeping.

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[–] Owlwise (1536) 5 years ago

Yes, the question to ask is, "Who benefits?" In this case, those with power over malleable children, gladly condemning them to a life without the possibilities that the rest of us take for granted, cheating them of the chance to become their own persons, in order to maintain a controlling power structure based on rigid dogma.

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[–] Keelai (35270) 5 years ago

Continue to watch Israel in the coming years. The Ultra-Orthodox are growing in population and political influence creating friction with secular Jews.

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[–] brux (14774) 4 years ago

But that is not just in religion ...
this problem is something between the innocent and the worldly.
It would be hard to impossible to find an example of something we have not
been programmed to think by some institution interested in making financial
use of us ... and people don't even think about this.

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[–] brux (14774) 4 years ago

Yeah, good point, this is the problem with religion ... it is based on dogma so it will be going along seemingly believably until reality collides with it.

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