MovieChat Forums > Hamilton (2020) Discussion > From Applause to Jeering: Then and Now

From Applause to Jeering: Then and Now


In 2015, when Hamilton first showed up, everybody I know who has left or left-leaning politics hailed it as the greatest musical of all-time, and cited its race-bending cast and hip-hop music as being the herald of doom for fusty old white people theatre.

Now they released Hamilton for home audiences and even up until the release, everybody was so excited to see it or rewatch it. But the minute it came out a BUNCH of people started ripping it up for "centering white stories" and for not being woke enough.

It's basically the same people who LOVED it five years ago are now dismissing and deriding it. Weirder still, the reason is the same reason (how "progressive" it is), only five years ago it was super-progressive and now it might as well be Show Boat or Miss Saigon for all they care.

reply

No matter how woke you are, you're not woke enough.

I saw an article recently about how the show Modern Family is an "artifact" and that "it's hard to believe it's still on the air."

Modern Family. The show with interracial marriages, same sex marriages, foreign adoptions, and all the rest. An artifact.

Never.Woke.Enough.

reply

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_ChQK8j6so8

reply

HAhahahaha

reply

More and more I'm reminded of that clip. It seems like these days a lot of people have broken language down into two messages, "Shut up" and "You aren't wearing enough flair".

reply

I love fusty old white people theater.

reply

Of course you do. Macbeth alone makes it all worth it.

reply

I love it too. I don't think that liscarkat was talking as far back as Macbeth though. I think that maybe they were talking more about West Side Story, Funny Girl and A Chorus Line. I could be wrong though.

reply

I think I know how this happened.

Basically, in 2015, the "woke era" had not gotten white-hot yet when it came to going on a cultural crusade against everything American. That, and liberals hadn't started their 4-year-long temper tantrum yet. At that time, Hamilton was only available to see on Broadway, so only the snooty elites in NYC could see it, and of course, seeing as most of them in that city were liberals and could splurge $160-$600 on each ticket, they thought it was the best thing that ever happened to Broadway shows.

Now that it's available for us "peasants" to watch on Disney+, you get an entirely different perspective on the show. Regular people are finally seeing it for the anti-white, badly-written, insulting fiction that it truly is, and are not pleased with the results. That, and the woke mob (whose rules and goal-posts change as frequently as the direction of dust motes in the wind) decided this story wasn't as satisfactory to them as they once thought 5 years ago.

reply

I agree with you.

I think that cultural assassins stand ready to move the goalposts continually. They happily laud something in 2015 and push the goalposts there. Hiphop music and diverse casting: that's the stamp of approval. But once the post is there, they can move it up further. Not good enough. Story's "too white." It is the textbook definition of "give and inch, take a mile".

I cannot directly comment on the quality of Hamilton; I haven't seen it.

But your point is very astute: when only a few people see it, it doesn't get opened to mass-critique. Now, I think there's some other elements at play here. There's a psychological thing (don't remember the term for it...) where you justify what you've done if it cost a lot. So, if you drop $600 on a seat to watch Hamilton, you're almost guaranteed to love it because your mind is justifying the expense.

Now, there is something to be said for a production designed to be live which is consumed at home. That does detract from the experience. That said, I watched the Folger Theatre's Macbeth recently and it was superlative! Check it out: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1OU0cuGuPSk&feature=youtu.be

With a mass-audience also comes people who want to see the cultural phenomenon but might not be "musical theatre" people or hip-hop fans, so they don't like it. That's not a knock on the show, just that it's now exposed to people who don't like that kind of thing. It's like showing Blade Runner to somebody who hates sci-fi.

Most of the backlash I've seen is coming from the Left, eating itself again, thanks to call-out culture where points are scored when you rip something up for not being "pure" enough.

I've never thought of Hamilton as anti-white. Lin Manuel-Miranda was making a symbolic point about the American story essentially being the immigrant story. I get it. I dig it. I'm a middleground guy. I'm not right wing enough to boo-hoo about "racism" under that circumstance.

reply

That's why I don't think the term "puritan" quite fits the woke mob very well. See, Puritans in the 17th century had a static set of beliefs and cultural norms that did not change until people just walked away from that way of life. The Woke mob changes their views on what is "acceptable" and politically correct, almost every 5 minutes. Sometimes all it takes is an hour for the different people in that crowd to start eating each other, and then the fights break out, only for them to come back together the next week and go after something else they don't like. It's like watching the Skeksis in the Dark Crystal universe bickering and at each other's throats all the time; and yet other times they work as a team despite hating each other, because they are Skeksis and the only creatures that can relate to each other on that world.

reply

Haha...now I'm just going to think of them as Skeksis.

Yeah, at least the Puritans told people how Spartan, strict, and unyielding were the standards and wrote down the rules...

reply

I'm not sure if there is a term specific to this, but it's closely related to the placebo effect.

"Our brains are tricked into thinking a bottle of wine tastes better if we believe it is expensive.

A new study has found that the same wine tastes better to people when they think it has a higher price tag.

The researchers hope their findings will shed light on the placebo effect - a marketing tactic often used to coerce people into buying more expensive goods."

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-4789770/People-think-wine-tastes-better-s-expensive.html

reply

I think I was thinking of the Sunk Cost Fallacy:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sunk_cost

With a little bit of this thrown in:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Escalation_of_commitment

But, yes, the wine label thing is similar. I've usually heard Placebo effect referring to actual non-medicinal medicine that works because your brain makes it real like something out of The Matrix.

I've encountered this behaviour at buffets. People think that they get more "value" out of a buffet by eating as much as they possibly can, but for me, my value at the buffet is the experience. So, if I leave a buffet overfull and having gained seven pounds (all in empty calories), my experience is diminished and my money wasn't used to best value. I'd rather eat slower, eat less, and enjoy it more. That's how I get the best bang for my buck.

reply

Sunk cost was actually my first thought. However, that has more to do with continuing to spend money on something solely because you've already spent a lot. Not necessarily that you perceive something as better because you paid a lot for it.

In the poker world they'd call it "pot committed." You may know you have a losing hand, but you've already put so much into the pot that you feel compelled to see it through to the end. You'll go broke playing like this.

reply

Well put.

reply

That actually makes sense, now that I think about it. If people have to pay more for entertainment, particularly if it's something they don't do every day, their minds are going to believe it was better than the everyday stuff, even if it wasn't.

reply

One of many, many ways our brains mess with us.

reply

Never liked it anyway. The new musicals just don't do it for me. There are a few newer ones that I have liked, but Hamilton just wasn't one of them. Two hours plus of the music from that show really grinds my nerves.

reply

I'm not much of a musical person in general. I like them well enough, but if it's a choice between Les Miserables and Shakespeare, I'll go with Shakespeare (or Wilde or a contemporary play that isn't a musical...)

Don't get me wrong, I've had some wonderful experiences with musicals on stage and film, but I tend to prefer other things.

reply

I like anything as long as it stirs a fire within me. It can be a musical, a play, music, a movie or a painting. If it brings me to that place, I'm a fan of whatever it may be.

reply

I'm with you there! I have very eclectic tastes across genres and media. But I tend to have fewer of those soul-firing experiences with musicals for whatever reason.

But, yeah, a great musical is still great.

reply

My tastes are all over the place too. It is too boring a world when people are stuck in one or two genres of anything. I have lived in NYC my whole life, so the theater, the music scene and art museums have always played an important part of my life. A lot of people in this world miss so much because they don't expand their horizon.

reply

Every now and then I try to take something in that I wouldn't normally take in. I've had wonderful experiences and terrible ones, but the wonderful ones lead you on to more like them.

Algorithms bug me for that exact reason, or at least, the use of them on sites like youtube. Youtube used to have a "less sophisticated" algorithm that made recommendations similar to what you clicked on. Now the darn thing just knows what I've already watched and tries to serve me up the exact same stuff.

I discovered Journey to the Centre of Your Mind thanks to the "worse" algorithm. That algorithm - the old one - was like a good buddy going, "Oh, you liked that? Check this out..." and playing you something sweet. The new one is just an automated delivery system, bringing you the exact same thing until you beg for it to stop.

I know it's a bit of a fine line.

The big problem with it, of course, is that these algorithms push people into echo chambers.

It's a little dopamine hit to stick with the familiar. But nothing beats stretching the horizon as far as it will go and cruising on through...

reply

I generally don't rely on Youtube to search out new things for the exact reasons you have stated. I do enjoy Youtube, but most of what I watch I discovered elsewhere.

reply

In 2015 you could still love the USA. But with Trump you can't like anything patriotic anymore or you're racist. Even though Obama LOVED Hamilton, I guess with COVID and BLM terrorizing everyone things change.

reply