My Head Hurts [spoilers] - Travelers (2016) Discussion

[–] Scimitar_Scimitar 8 years ago

I believe their intention was to make it confusing as hell. Whether or not do that was a good idea is debatable. Carly made me very angry at the end flip-flopping between her own desires to break protocols and her need to prove her point to Maclaren.

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[–] meira-hand 8 years ago

Carly made me very angry at the end flip-flopping between her own desires to break protocols and her need to prove her point to Maclaren

What really bothers me about Carly (apart from being annoyed by her behavior) is that her character does not make sense. I would assume that the first priority for choosing travelers is emotional stability and being level headed. Someone in this thread mentioned similarities to Odyssey 5, so I tried it, but the childish, petulant and overly emotional behavior of most of the astronauts on the shuttle was so absurd, I just couldn't take it. If there is one character trait you expect from them is calm under pressure and being able to get along within the team. In fact the calm and mature way they all behaved since the beginning was one of the attractions of the series. Yes, Philip, Trevor and Mac eventually broke protocol, but it was on moral and ethical issues of saving other people lives, not temper tantrums and selfish emotional needs.

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[–] Dejay 8 years ago

Well the bigger issue is that at the moment they don't know if any of the text messages and the one send to Carly are even coming from the director. I mean if the director sends them, he could explain a bit more or send some kind of verification. The team is loyal to the director, so why would he eliminate them instead of just give them orders? And he could have given them the orders before they entered the field.

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[–] gswan 8 years ago

I would assume that the first priority for choosing travelers is emotional stability and being level headed.

You criticize Carly, yet every single member of the team has fallen short.

Why? Well, it seems the travelers come from a world of great scarcity. I suggest it is not just a scarcity of consumer items, but also a world of emotional scarcity. That would make it hardly surprising if they don't cope well in a rich world.

Philip: Sent them on bogus missions, to save people he knew were about to die, without authorization from HQ.

Trevor: Tried to save the nice lady who was his high school guidance counselor from dying, and being a host for a traveler.

Marcy: Lets the sweet man-boy who is her host's social worker fall in love with her, in fact leads him on, and sees to like him, in turn, way more than is compatible with the mission.

McLaren: Let his new affection for his host's wife take him off mission in episode 1.8 Bishop.

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[–] Scimitar_Scimitar 8 years ago

You're spot on that the future seems to be devoid of many things we take for granted. But as meira-hand said the others did it out of a moral or ethical sense of duty, which does not make you wrong.

Philip: Sent them on bogus missions, to save people he knew were about to die, without authorization from HQ.

Could be excused on his host heroin addiction as Marcy suggest.

Trevor: Tried to save the nice lady who was his high school guidance counselor from dying, and being a host for a traveler.

Trevor seems to be doing it out of love for Grace.

Marcy: Lets the sweet man-boy who is her host's social worker fall in love with her, in fact leads him on, and sees to like him, in turn, way more than is compatible with the mission.

I would say it is more likely that Marcy is making a mission based call with David as she knows she needs someone that can care for her.

McLaren: Let his new affection for his host's wife take him off mission in episode 1.8 Bishop.

This one is easy as he is preserving the past where he comes from, save Kat who is never meant to be on that plane.

Now I fully understand the implications of what I just said and how the past and future has changed and that you can look at all these decisions from and ethical/moral or selfish point of view. I think though that in Carly's case we see like meira-hand said a complete tantrum from her.

Also I feel considering there actions, that in the future; at least the future they came from, they have very high levels of humanity and emotional attachment due to survival of the species.

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[–] Scimitar_Scimitar 8 years ago

Yeah totally. One of the main themes of the show is the morality and ethical confrontation that the characters face. I like to think that Carly's future self is a lot like Garza from Continuum, after all, she is the tactical expert of the team. I guess as with plans, no one's training survives contact with the past.

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[–] Dejay 8 years ago

Are you kidding? I love this show, I even predicted the director is an AI and that there could be factions, and that at some point it would get messy as hell.

I absolutely love the finale. Yes it's confusing, because they don't know who sends the messages.

Logically it's pretty clear though that the text messages come from the faction. The quantum thingy is not something the director would have to be afraid of - after all the director chooses if he wants to transfer himself there or not. If he doesn't want to the quantum computer can just sit there.

Well except... if the quantum computer falls into the hands of the FBI / military and creates an entirely new terrible timeline.

It's definitely a great wtf cliffhanger. I can't wait for season 2!!!

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[–] gswan 8 years ago

Congratulations on predicting the Director would be an AI!

I think I too predicted factions, so congratulations to both of us.

Early in the season, I had my doubts about both Travelers and Timeless. Given the volume of posts to the respective message boards, Timeless excited more viewers. That seems to have changed.

Why? With the exception of episode 1.7, a very weak episode Travelers got better as the season progressed, and is more coherent than the undisciplined mess of Timeless.

If Timeless were to introduce a new wrinkle, I would think "Oh no! How are the going to screw this up, or make it make sense?"

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[–] Dejay 8 years ago

Haha thanks, yeah I absolutely love this show. I really didn't dare to hope that we'd see a truly benevolent AI in a show! Now I just hope the director stays nice and the twist isn't that humans know best.

I haven't actually watched Timeless yet, I'll probably hate it after travelers?
EDIT: Ok ok I just watched the pilot and Timeless was way worse than I expected lol. It's all that I hate in bad TV shows and that Travelers isn't.

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[–] Sluggr-3 8 years ago

Well except... if the quantum computer falls into the hands of the FBI / military and creates an entirely new terrible timeline.

This of course borrows heavily from Terminator wherein the microprocessors found in Arnold's mangled arm in the hydraulic press in 1986 led the formation of the company which subsequently developed skynet out of the blue. T-2 was trying to fix the unintended consequences of T-1, being John Conner, who would not have existed without Tech Sgt Reese doing his mom.

I have great faith that Brad Wright will not go full-retard on the show format or story line. For all we know, maybe it was the intention of The Director to have the quantum computer fall into the hands of .gov Perhaps it will be all seeing and benevolent like Harold's box in PoI. Or, we are all screwed. Heck of a cliffhanger nonetheless.

My Chimp DNA seems to have lost its password temporarily. Sluggr-2

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[–] chrisjdel 8 years ago

If the Director has transferred to the present (which it seemed to at the end) that would mean the Traveler main complex is either in Faction hands or has been self-destructed to prevent this. If no more Director loyal Travelers are coming from the future, perhaps an "alliance" with present day authorities is the only way it can hope to accomplish its goals now. With new Travelers, assuming there are any, all being agents of the Faction the old hands would need as many allies and as much support as they could get.

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[–] Sluggr-3 8 years ago

History is written by the winners, and more often than not "the winners" were originally described as "the rebels." So for all we know, Mac and his team were sent back by an AI whom they thought had their best interests in mind, but didn't. Might even be the case where enough people were fooled in the future that Helios was actually steered into the Earth by the travelers rather than being a near miss (like the Chelyabinsk meteor in 2013). Perhaps the faction will be the good guys by the end.

I'm starting to think there might even be some thematic similarities with The Black List wherein most assume that Red's intentions are good, but he might just be using the FBI to eliminate his competition and further his criminal enterprise. Good writing always leaves room for interpretation and allows the viewer to make assumptions which may prove to be wrong in the end. We know computers are good at chess, and this might just be a chess match on a grand scale. Look at how many of us rooted for Tony Soprano and Vic Mackey even though they were criminal sociopaths. Or Jack Bauer supporting a president later found to be corrupt.

My Chimp DNA seems to have lost its password temporarily. Sluggr-2

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[–] chrisjdel 8 years ago

I'd be surprised if they went this route though. The AI being the bad guy is so cliche, and the setup for the Faction turning out to be the good guys is too obvious. We may find out most of the Faction are not evil people, that they have solid reasons for believing they're doing the right thing, but I don't think the Director will turn out to be a scheming wolf in sheep's clothing.

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[–] meira-hand 8 years ago

I don't think describing either as good or evil is relevant here. What I understood from the discussion in the final is that everyone is trying to avoid the destruction in the future but have different opinions on the right approach to achieving it. Its an argument between which judgment can better be trusted, human or AI.

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[–] chrisjdel 8 years ago

So far The Faction does seem a lot more cold blooded in the way they do things though. Just saying. At this moment if I had to pick a side, I'd go with the Director.

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[–] meira-hand 8 years ago

So far The Faction does seem a lot more cold blooded in the way they do things though.

The underground fighting the establishment who has the majority power. always is. They have to be. This does not necessarily mean they are wrong. I would also pick the director at this point, but I suspect its just because we learned about it from our beloved protagonists who trust its judgment.

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[–] Dejay 8 years ago

Oh I disagree, that IS evil. To have a difference of opinion is fine, but to let it escalate to violence, destabilize an already fragile situation and risk the utter destruction of humanity is evil.

They might have a difference of opinion. But a war with the director risks everyone's survival. Even if they think they are right, even if they are in fact right, you don't attack the president in war time. Only their situation is more precarious, with the extinction of humanity being risk over a difference in opinion. I'm pretty anti-authoritarian, but I would have no problem killing the faction guys in cold blood to make sure humanity survives.

It's like being in a bank robbery and one guy thinks he should be a hero and draw his gun and get everyone killed.

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[–] Sluggr-3 8 years ago

You know, I'd love to see what the Constitution looks like in the time of the Travelers. I wonder how many of the Bill of Rights still exist.

It's like being in a bank robbery and one guy thinks he should be a hero and draw his gun and get everyone killed.

Or maybe it is the guy who draws his gun and keeps a whole bunch of people (including himself) from getting killed. Ever notice that mass shootings occur in gun-free zones? They might be crazy, but they aren't stupid.

My Chimp DNA seems to have lost its password temporarily. Sluggr-2

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[–] chrisjdel 8 years ago

A lot would depend on how human the Director is. Our first AIs will almost certainly be based on the human brain (the only example of a conscious system we currently have). How they evolve from there, who can say? If the Director isn't capable of taking pleasure in the exercise of power itself, a lot of your concerns would be unfounded.

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[–] Dejay 8 years ago

You guys are so obsessed with your constitution ;) It's just a few rules written down that blatantly get ignored even today.

But I don't want to egg you on. I chose that example because it shows that letting the bank robbers take the money and get out is the saver option there. In other situations you have to fight of course. But to quarrel about political liberties when the survival of the species is at stake? Inconceivable.

You could imagine a similar conflict on a generation star ship holding the last survivors of humanity, and where the captain is the absolute ruler. It might not be ideal but it ensures stability, effective leadership and survival of the species. Maybe a new generation is born and start a war "because it's the right thing to do". In other situations it would be the right thing to do, but in others it's just stupid and reckless and that makes it evil.

Of course we don't really know what the situation in the future is. Maybe they have a good reason or think the director is only using them and will get rid of them when he's done. But extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.

PS: Also it's hard to know what an AI would truly want. An artificial mind could be incredibly alien to us. But it's doubtful it would be as petty and power hungry of powers sake as humans are.

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[–] chrisjdel 8 years ago

Exactly. If an AI wasn't capable of enjoying power for its own sake, we wouldn't have to worry about the kind of abuses you get with a human dictator. If it started out as essentially a clone of the human brain and then evolved to much higher capacity the Director might be, in a sense, like one of our own descendants from the far distant future. Its motives wouldn't be entirely alien to us but they'd be different.

Your example of a generational starship carrying the last surviving humans is a good one. What do you do if the ship's leader (call him/her The Captain) becomes a tyrant? Well I guess it depends on how much of a tyrant they are. Does it involve lots of people being flushed out into space, anyone who even looks like they might be thinking about opposing them? Even in this extreme case, you'd need to play it smart. Take over one section of the ship, something you have the force to hold, where at least some of its critical systems fall under your control. Then you agree to a conditional truce which allows your people to live separately until the ship arrives at its destination. You've got a whole planet to terraform and colonize. There's room for more than one nation in the new world. Fighting an all-out war on board risks killing off the only humans left who can repopulate the species. The Travelers' future is similar in a lot of ways to that scenario.

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[–] Dejay 8 years ago

If it started out as essentially a clone of the human brain and then evolved to much higher capacity the Director might be

Yeah good point, that would make a huge difference. A synthetically engineered AI could be anything and very alien, while a post-human mind would still at least understand and carry many of our passions and ideals of aesthetic with it.

Even in this extreme case, you'd need to play it smart. Take over one section of the ship

Heretic! Your post has been reported to the administrator for sedition! ;)

But seriously, we humans have evolved in feudalistic societies. The most important things to people have always been having work and food and safety, then education and only them personal freedoms. In that sense today's culture is out of control. Well the control systems are so well hidden that you don't see them.

But in this case even if I would agree with a rebel cause, I'd still side with the institution simply because it's too risky. Similar to how I want Assaad to win in Syria just so that the war and bloodshed ends. It's wrong, but it's less wrong than the catastrophic alternative.

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[–] chrisjdel 8 years ago

There would probably be provisions for removing a Captain who was mentally unfit. Better yet, for a generational ship carrying millions of people you'd have a democratic government. A pretty small legislative branch but some kind of Congress or Parliament nonetheless. It's not like you're going into combat and need command to speak with one voice at all times.

I just cited that as an example of what you might do if a sociopath grabbed absolute power on a life raft in the middle of interstellar space. If the tyranny was something more bearable, you wouldn't risk fighting on the ship at all. Wait until you're on the ground at the destination to stage your revolt.

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[–] Sluggr-3 8 years ago

Or look at what HAL did to the humans on board who were a threat to the mission.

My Chimp DNA seems to have lost its password temporarily. Sluggr-2

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[–] Dejay 8 years ago

Yeah. I can't wait until we learn more. Too bad this isn't based on a novel or I'd read it haha.

The other thing of course is that an AI is probably the only one that can actually do the job of shaping the past for a better future. Too many threads and variables for a human committee to discuss and decide.

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[–] Sluggr-3 8 years ago

As one who has been involved with the development and implementation of computer-controlled surgical devices, let me just say that I'd prefer to be opened up by a person, or at a minimum having a person on the controls at all times. 99.99% of the bugs being worked out isn't good enough for me, just sayin.

Old Sully became famous because the FADEC engines (Fully automatic digital electrical control) in his AIRBUS wouldn't let him restart. And that is why I still drive a 5-sp. Just not willing to give up control to as yet (IMHO) unproven technologies. ;-)

As I've already posited, which machine from PoI represents "The Director." This show might be PoI 500 years in the future.

My Chimp DNA seems to have lost its password temporarily. Sluggr-2

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[–] chrisjdel 8 years ago

I completely agree about current computer control systems. Tesla recently showcased a video of one of their "autopilot" vehicles braking and avoiding a multi-car accident, but neglected to show us the video of the one that drove its owner into an instantly fatal head-on collision with a truck. I wouldn't trust my life to this technology either. Never mind allow it to perform surgery.

To be fair though, we're talking about a sentient system. That's what humans have which all present-day hardware lacks. The Director is an AI of superhuman intelligence. A superior being, if you will. Assuming it's trustworthy, it would be more competent and know what to do better than any human.

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[–] Dejay 8 years ago

Yeah I agree. Self driving cars are not really intelligent, they just follow a program.

I'm really curious with what the show will go - what does the faction have against he director? What do they question about him, his intentions, his competency or is it just on principle?

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[–] Sluggr-3 8 years ago

Just make sure your Tesla doesn't cross paths with a semi with a road and horizon painted on the trailer and you will be fine.

Perhaps the faction determined that there was an intentional attempt to collapse shelter 41, which they averted, and they are now basing their actions against the director from that location. I will get to it once I have re-watched the first 11 eps to make sure something wasn't missed. Now wondering if the Russian travelers went rogue on their own or whether they were the first evidence of faction activity.

My Chimp DNA seems to have lost its password temporarily. Sluggr-2

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[–] Dejay 8 years ago

Haha well yeah. Computer vision COULD be a whole lot better. But once that nut is cracked properly a whole lot of things are going to change drastically. But really the point is that you can't compare today's self driving cars with a real sentience.

I wonder if they will end up doing something innocuous by accident and suddenly there never was a faction :D

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[–] chrisjdel 8 years ago

This is a good point. If the Director realized an insurgency was brewing and deliberately engineered the "accidental" collapse of Shelter 41 (succeeding in the original timeline and failing in the new one) that would certainly explain the Faction becoming more radicalized and willing to declare open war.

Of course, our assumption that the Faction wants to fix everything just like the Director but disagrees over the best way to do it may be wrong. What if they're a cult like movement with a charismatic leader (and self-appointed general) who envisions a new world order with himself as supreme ruler. Someone mentioned Cliff Simon, who was Ba'al on Stargate SG-1, he'd make a good charming but ruthless Faction leader. Don't you think? Anyway, they could have a plan involving the replacement of high officials in various governments, whether they're about to die or not.

Maybe they were planning to use the Helios impact to create the necessary crisis conditions and that's why they didn't want it deflected. Plan B might be to infiltrate governments and manufacture a major global conflict. After years of fighting when civilization was near collapse, a treaty would be negotiated establishing a unified world state. People would turn to their charismatic new President to lead them in rebuilding their broken world, and unknowingly surrender control to a regime that would last a very, very long time indeed.

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[–] Sluggr-3 8 years ago

My SWAG is that the future people discover how to transmit a consciousness back in time, and decide to use this tool alter the course that mankind has taken by deflecting the asteroid which they believe was the cause of their downfall. These are noble good intentions. So they start to insert people into our present, say starting around 1960 or so, when they have access to computer records which indicate place and time of death. Perhaps JFK was one of the first travelers, hence his proclamation about getting a man to the moon, which of course really ramped up science big time. But, ... as they are going about their business of transferring technical knowledge back into the 60's, 70's, and 80's, some of the future people (the faction) start to notice that the offshoots of technology are creating a more toxic environment than that which came after Helios hit. They reason that it is better to have a non-toxic asteroid hit the earth and kill 91M people than to have many similar events in the form of nuclear and anti-matter bombs going off which doom the planet. Ep 5 was the faction's attempt to stop Mac and team from setting off the blast. But that has now happened (and I suspect wasn't successful), so I see the faction now trying to "out" the Traveler Program, which will lend credibility to their message that Earth needs to prepare now for the eventual impact of Helios. If someone shows up and says "hey, an asteroid is going to hit the planet," they will be laughed at. But if that message is accompanied by a piece of hardware (quantum computer) whose technology is hundreds of years down the road, well, you might listen to them a bit more seriously. Knowing sooner about what will happen re: Helios will both lessen the impact of the impact, and will allow the .govs to work together to create more stability in the post-cataclysmic world. Somehow the pipeline is a key component to what happens later, sort of like how Deepwater Horizon almost screwed our pooch a few years back.

Looking at this with fresh eyes, I'm now reinterpreting Donner's real mission. Perhaps he really was programmed to expose the Traveler Program, except The Director was on top of the plans for subversion. Things may have been falling apart almost from the beginning of the series.

My Chimp DNA seems to have lost its password temporarily. Sluggr-2

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[–] Sluggr-3 8 years ago

A former boss-man, in referencing a patient who had been butchered by another surgeon, stated that "there is nothing more dangerous than misguided good intentions." So the premise of the Travelers program seems noble, "change the past to prevent a disaster which affects the future." And in this case, it makes sense because it appears that in the future the world might be completely uninhabitable. But, we don't know whether it was the act of coming back in time which created many of the problems in the first place (ie, Terminator conundrum).

Speculation on:

Recently, I believe it was Trevor, stated that the Director couldn't (possibly more accurate to say wouldn't) send anyone back further than the most recent traveler arrival in the 21st. But, what if the reign of The Director wasn't the only time that consciousnesses were sent back. The question from ep 5 "when are you from" has been sitting on a backburner for me. It suggests that there may have been other "waves" of travelers sent back to fix things, maybe some even before the age of computers, and maybe some sent back before the most recent set had arrived (a do-over squad, so to speak). Let's say there was a battle in the future where the faction takes over the facility that was run by "The Director." They have all of the hardware in place to send a consciousness back, but not the software, or perhaps the historical record of when teams were sent back from the future. This suggests to me that in the future there is a group running the time travel facility that might only have part of the information about the teams that were sent back. We might have a scenario similar to "Back to the Future" where there are two Martys running around at the same time. Well, not two Martys, but rather, sets of Travelers from 2600 and sets from 2605, and the purpose of the second set is to undo/modify the actions of the first. It may very well be that the young girl who kills her mom, brother, and possibly dad is possibly doing a good thing in the grand scope of human existence.

I really like this show. For those not familiar with Stargate SG-1, I suggest checking out the episodes titled "1969," "Its Good to be King" (with the guy who played Ellis here as the king), "Mobius," and "2010," and the movie "Stargate Continuum," which in a way is most like Travelers. Brad Wright has a strong track record of doing time travel well, IMHO, hence my optimism for this show. And I sure hope Cliff Simon shows up here as he was a favorite of mine as Ba'al from SG-1.

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0929629/

My Chimp DNA seems to have lost its password temporarily. Sluggr-2

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[–] chrisjdel 8 years ago

And I sure hope Cliff Simon shows up here as he was a favorite of mine as Ba'al from SG-1.

Yeah, he was definitely one of the most fun recurring characters. It would be great if he showed up on Travelers.

I don't think Travelers could have been sent earlier than the ones we know about. Certain elements needed to be in place before it could be attempted. Later on the other hand ... it would be interesting if we had yet a third Traveler faction from the more distant future, when the human race is nearing its final days, and maybe they'll deliver a message something like what you said. If the Director hadn't screwed with history the Helios impact would have been it. No resource wars, we would've recovered. But now there's a real mess to clean up. Good job guys!

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[–] chrisjdel 8 years ago

Philip: Sent them on bogus missions, to save people he knew were about to die, without authorization from HQ.

He has the convenient cover that he was dropped into the body of a heroin addict. I assume, from the bleakness of the future they've described, that drug addiction is a problem they know well there.

Trevor: Tried to save the nice lady who was his high school guidance counselor from dying, and being a host for a traveler.

Some sort of disciplinary action will probably result from this. It may not be especially severe though, partly because the Director (despite being a machine) seems to have some understanding of human fallibility. Trevor having a personal acquaintance with pre-Traveler Grace was just a piece of bad luck and he wouldn't have known about her impending death if not for Phillip's issues. Writing all those names on the wall and whatnot. Plus Trevor is a high value asset whose loyalty has been proven.

Marcy: Lets the sweet man-boy who is her host's social worker fall in love with her, in fact leads him on, and sees to like him, in turn, way more than is compatible with the mission.

With Protocol 5, they are explicitly telling their people to embrace the lives of their hosts (to the extent that it doesn't obstruct the mission). She hasn't spilled the beans to David, or gone off-mission to help him, or broken any other rules with the relationship. Nowhere does it say "avoid any and all emotional attachments".

MacLaren: Let his new affection for his host's wife take him off mission in episode 1.8 Bishop.

This situation is more complicated. Kat wouldn't have been on that flight in the timeline where her husband died, making her the only person other than MacLaren who wasn't on the historical passenger manifest. It was his own actions as a Traveler that got her there (because she suspected he was having an affair and followed him). If he was ever before a committee trying to explain his actions, I'm sure this is what MacLaren would offer as his defense. Would they buy it? Or even totally agree with what he did? Who knows. Perhaps the team with the medical nanites was an unspoken indication of the Director's approval.

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[–] Dejay 8 years ago

You're doing it again! ;)
(replying to the wrong post)

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[–] chrisjdel 8 years ago

Looking at this with fresh eyes, I'm now reinterpreting Donner's real mission. Perhaps he really was programmed to expose the Traveler Program, except The Director was on top of the plans for subversion. Things may have been falling apart almost from the beginning of the series.

Alright, this is getting ridiculous. Before we're looking at single word columns I'm going to restart the chain.

Actually, I don't think Donner #2 was following any organized plan. His actions were too impulsive and haphazard. He was just a cowardly, self-absorbed guy who managed to get by whatever psychological screening they employ. Donner #3 though, I think he does have an assignment in that prison. Disillusioned cellmate? How much you want to bet he's Faction? Donner will start off as a staunch believer in the Director and let the cellmate slowly wear him down, then recruit him to switch sides. Perhaps they'll even escape together. Once he's penetrated the Faction presence here and learned everything he can, Traveler teams will move in and dismantle as much of the organization as possible. And take some prisoners of course for further interrogation.

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