What happens to their body in the 21st Century? - Travelers (2016) Discussion

[–] 8 years ago

[deleted]

[–] gswan 8 years ago

You mean, in the original century? They probably die there.

(Inexplicably) medical knowledge is much more advanced in the future. So they should have been able to put the Travelers bodies into a coma, to keep them ready, to have their consciousness returned to them.

In episode 1.11 Trevor says he was an experimental subject, and had different versions of his consciousness re-installed into his body.

This establishes reinstallation is possible. It also establishes that the process of acquiring the Traveller's own consciousness is not destructive.

If the process of transfer is merely a copying, then there is no reason why the Traveller future doppelganger shouldn't walk around, doing their job in the future. It suggest there is no reason why a Traveller's consciousness be projected into multiple 21st Century hosts at once.

reply

[–] sensurert 8 years ago

Thats a good question, havent been adressed yet im 10 episodes in. But, they talk about how there is a chance that if they alter the future too much, they could die.

reply

[–] grey_outlaw 8 years ago

I don't think the engineer meant that they could die back in the future I think she meant more like a butterfly effect where as if they alter the future then may be the circumstances that lead to that point in time in the future alter.

-'Human intelligence' is an oxymoron-

reply

[–] chrisjdel 8 years ago

I don't think their original bodies survive when they're sent back. It's a one way trip. And they don't seem sure what will happen once they've altered the timeline enough to avert catastrophe, making the Traveler program unnecessary in the future. Maybe they'll cease to exist. Or maybe they'll live out their hosts' lives in the new timeline. All they can do is focus on their mission; and should they survive long enough to complete it, they'll learn the answer.

reply

[–] Dejay 8 years ago

Yeah the "at the peril of our own birth" doesn't make too much sense. Exactly when does the universe know to erase their consciousness from the present? After they fulfilled their mission?

Since they already remember the future differently it would stand to reason, that even if they are never born in the future they would still live out their normal hosts lives.

reply

[–] gswan 8 years ago

Their mind travels to a new host in the past, but what about their body they left behind?

I am not the only one who has noted that episode 1.6 implies that Travelers can return to their future HQ, when their 21st century host dies.

First, Engineer Bloom's serial number is 117, suggesting she is from the original cohort of Travelers, someone who has returned from multiple assignments.

In one of the last scenes in ep 1.6 Gleason shoots Bloom's elderly host, before she can pull the switch, and then each of his men is taken over by a Traveler, only to have Gleason shoot them, and finally a Traveler takes him over. It would, of course, have been simpler to project a dozen Travelers in Gleason, and all of his men. In several threads several viewers have interpreted that scene as Bloom being projected back into each of those characters, one at a time, so she can fulfill the wish she voiced halfway through the episode. Bloom designed the x-ray laser, and she said she wanted to be the one who triggered it.

In episode 1.8 The first Traveler projected into Donner seems to have been returned to the future without dying, for punishment.

reply

[–] meira-hand 8 years ago

First, Engineer Bloom's serial number is 117, suggesting she is from the original cohort of Travelers, someone who has returned from multiple assignments.

You keep adhering to the theory that the travelers numbers indicate the order of travel when in fact it indicates their importance in the future. This is why Engineer Bloom's serial number is low. It shows how important she is, not that she has traveled before. It may still be possible but the numbers are not relevant to this argument.
Also what I understood from the scene you mention in episode 1.8 is just the opposite, i.e. that he was not sent back, but killed by the override.

reply

[–] Freddy_Boy 8 years ago

We're also dealing with time travel. The chronological order in which they are sent doesn't necessarily need to correspond with how far back they are sent.

They touched on the subject of overrides too. The reason they pick people who are about to die was because overriding an (adult) brain most definitively kills the individual already existing there. It had nothing to do with going back to the future.

As far as going back some characters did seem more experienced than others, such as Bloom. Citing the protocol's as if they've been through it before. So there might be a possibility that they can go back in a sense at least.

reply

[–] Sluggr-3 8 years ago

Bloom's consciousness was probably still in RAM so they could keep sending her even though her body in the future might be future "bacon"

My Chimp DNA seems to have lost its password temporarily. Sluggr-2

reply

[–] Freddy_Boy 8 years ago

It would most certainly seem so. After so proudly proclaiming that (s)he wanted to be the one turning the key and almost seemingly allow herself to be gunned down like that. She made no pretense about it whatsoever turning the key under gunpoint.

Most of the narrative is leaning towards it all being a one-time deal though. But the technology seems decisively digital in nature. Perhaps the AI can buffer someone's consciousness to a certain extent.

reply

[–] gswan 8 years ago

First, Engineer Bloom's serial number is 117, suggesting she is from the original cohort of Travelers, someone who has returned from multiple assignments.
You keep adhering to the theory that the travelers numbers indicate the order of travel when in fact it indicates their importance in the future.

I am not wedded to the serial number interpretation, but I did offer my reasoning. Feel free to think the number is a measure of the Travelers importance.

I can't help noticing your haven't cited anything from the series to explain why you like this explanation.

Okay, a couple of questions about your explanation.

If the numbers are merely a pecking order, indicating who can boss who around, then McLaren's number should be lower than everyone else on his team.

So, if someone is promoted, do they get a new number?

If you encounter a very senior Bloom on one mission, and another mission, you encounter them on their very first mission, do you still defer to them, because you know they will be senior to one day? Why? For all you know you could rise to the Director chair, and he Bloom's boss.
Updated:
Since I wrote this: (1) we met Traveler 0014, someone makes a comment like, "14! He must be really important". (2) We learned that Trevor is Traveler 0115, two numbers away from Bloom.

Episode 1.12, the season finale, our team is told that the big Space Rock, Helios 685, was successfully diverted. How much of a follow-on did this have on their future. They think it was significant. There is now some kind of civil war among their organization. But the complete re-write one would think should have followed preventing the almost total destruction of civilization didn't occur.

reply

[–] meira-hand 8 years ago

I can't help noticing your haven't cited anything from the series to explain why you like this explanation.

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt5651844/board/thread/264472665

My reference thread, which also includes your response ignoring the direct transcript from the episode.
I have no idea if they can or cannot travel again, just that we have no direct indication from the series as yet.

reply

[–] Sluggr-3 8 years ago

I am betting that the presence of a couple of "double digit" travelers will put this argument to rest.

My Chimp DNA seems to have lost its password temporarily. Sluggr-2

reply

[–] Dejay 8 years ago

I am betting that the presence of a couple of "double digit" travelers will put this argument to rest.

Haha did all your questions get answered? :D

reply

[–] jonnypenn84 8 years ago

I just considered it as something like a social security number. She had a lower number because she was there from the beginning of the project.

reply

[–] tristaneverett-93859 8 years ago

I'm not sure who on here has seen all of series 1 or who is watching it weekly.

However, either way, the matter of traveler numbers is overtly addressed in 1.11 or 1.10 (can't remember, watched both at the same time). The lower the number, the more senior the traveler concerned.
Most travelers have numbers in the thousands. However, a few pop up with two-digit numbers.

reply

[–] itstort 8 years ago

They directly explain the numbering system as a regard to how important the individual is in the future. I forgot th episode #.

That scene you are referring to wasn't Bloom being sent back multiple times. At that point those people were just cannon fodder to get the key turned. Unnamed/unspecified jobber Travelers.

reply

[–] Freddy_Boy 8 years ago

Well, most of the narrative is leaning towards it all being a one-time deal at least.

They do explicitly describe it as a transfer of consciousness.

Marcy had an absolute fear for life, it seemed. Indicating that they have no way to return to the future. Their concern for MacLaren was equally telling in that regards. The fact they sentenced Donner to an override in Episode 8 was also very revealing.

All this could just be good ol' self-preservation though. Even if you were an exact clone of someone I'd guess you would still want to live, you know?

Because then we have that scene in Episode 6 where Bloom just blatantly disregard being under gunpoint and tries to turn the key anyway. Almost as if she knew she'd be able to do it either way.

Also there's a time when they recite their oath regarding the mission. It specifically says that they do it at risk of their birth and not their death. Hinting that they indeed have a body to return to. Or, in fact, digitally upload their consciousness while their original body is just roaming the future as is.

Could definitively add a new dimension to the show if that's the case.

I guess it could be nice if they address, in some way, how the technology should work. So we know what kind of laws govern their fictional universe.

reply

[–] artistathome 8 years ago

unless their 23rd century body or whatever century they are from---body is in stasis for their return, the body in the future would die with no consciousness.
they were prepared to live life in the 21st century, they said they would do that altho it would be difficult.

so it seems that they do not get to ever return to their bodies.

reply

[–] meckstut 8 years ago

I agree, I think this is a one way trip, it's not clear how they can go back? After they moved the Helios Asteroid they thought they had changed the future sufficiently that they might never be born in the future or that they would not be needed and hence they were preparing to live their lives in the 21st century.

reply

[–] tristaneverett-93859 8 years ago

Also there's a time when they recite their oath regarding the mission. It specifically says that they do it at risk of their birth and not their death. Hinting that they indeed have a body to return to. Or, in fact, digitally upload their consciousness while their original body is just roaming the future as is.

Hmmm ... I took it to just mean that they acknowledged their 2016 actions could have repercussions so that they might never actually exist in 2300-2500s - not that they were concerned they would have no original body to return to.

Not that they might really care - if they couldn't go back to 2300-2500 and were desinted to live out their existence in 2000s, whether they were born in the future would be of little consequence (unless you go for a different time-line model). :)

reply

[–] Dr_King_Schultz 8 years ago

That is hard to answer as the clues in the first season are not entirely consistent.

Some theories on this board are based on the mechanism that the Traveler dies when he is transfered to the hosts body in the past. That would mean that the messengers are suicide missions just to deliver one sentence to the past because the messengers' host gets her original mind back after the message was delivered.
Thats why i suppose the travelers body and mind stays alive in the future.

We know, that they can transfer a consciuosness to the past (where a certain level of technology existed). But there seems to be no backward channel to send the consciousness back the future. Otherwise they could have sent Marcys consciousness back and then overwrite her with a reformatted version of her current consciousness. Instead they overwerote her mind with her "default-consciousness".

It is mentioned in serveral episodes, that the travelers were explicitely chosen for a certain host and trained for their hosts moment of death.

Given these facts there are several options for the future setting. One might be as follows

The Travelers are alive in the future, receive a certain "traveler-training" (leader, doctor, historian, security or tech) once and prepare for certain hosts after that. Before they travel to their hosts mind, they make some sort of mind-backup. This mindset will be transported to the past. The Travelers body and mind stay in the future. (Maybe the Traveler prepared for the next host.)
The consciousness does not return. Everything the captured host experiences will only be known through histroic recordings.

This theory is supported by the Traveler who was ordered to detonate a bomb but instead tries to survive and live in the past. He is independent from his body and mind in the future and could live independent in the past for as long as the host body stays alive.

reply

[–] Sluggr-3 8 years ago

That would mean that the messengers are suicide missions

Messengers are just a line of code sent back, and the only death is if sent to a 21st century adult whose synaptic plasticity isn't sufficient to adapt. Think of a messenger as a memo vs sending the entire encyclopedia, just like if you tell a child something they usually forget in a minute or two, which is reality based. :(

At one point they talk about the "failure" which occurred in the teenager and the discussion went along the lines of there being a 30% failure rate in the beginning, and would have people still volunteered if they knew those odds. That implies risk, which tells me that it is a one-way trip and they cease to be in the future, and why both Mac and Carly came back as neither one wanted to be left alone in the dying town of Dystopia. I wonder if Mac and carly were an item before the mission or whether they bonded during the training process.

My Chimp DNA seems to have lost its password temporarily. Sluggr-2

reply

[–] meira-hand 8 years ago

That would mean that the messengers are suicide missions

I got the impression that these short messages were not sent by travelers but by the director without a human interface. it does not require an inhabiting mind, just a small tweak in the mind of the child to go a very short distance to a close by traveler and utter a short sentence.

reply

[–] Dejay 8 years ago

there being a 30% failure rate in the beginning, and would have people still volunteered if they knew those odds

Right, great point! Yeah I think the show wants it to be a transfer, not a copy of consciousness. The consciousness can be stored in the quantum computer of the director. Maybe the reading out of a consciousness is a destructive process for the brain.

Well then again... if the director has a copy, that would imply that he could also transfer the consciousness multiple times in the past or back into the original body in the future again.

I guess ultimately the writers want there to be risk, else there is no suspense. Ergo it has to be a one way transfer and what happened to Marcy was just a fluke / technobabble.

reply

[–] lasercannon-1 8 years ago

Maybe nothing. You assume that they remove the consciousness and send it back in time. But what if it is more like a fax machine, they just send a copy of your consciousness while the original never travels anywhere. They could just be walking around in the future like nothing ever happened.

reply

[–] meira-hand 8 years ago

I find this option the simplest and most logical. Unless the actual physical procedure that gets the brain information is destructive, staying alive in the future does not create any paradoxes. The time difference is so great that even if they don't disappear due to the changes made in the past, the travelers will not live long enough to meet their future selves (a scenario that most time travels stories try to avoid).

reply

[–] Scimitar_Scimitar 8 years ago

While true. I would say a simpler explanation would be the body can't live without the mind.

reply

[–] Dejay 8 years ago

Yeah I agree it's logical to "copy". But in that case there would be almost no risk involved. But since it's boring if there is no risk, the writers want it to be a one way transfer.

reply

[–] meira-hand 8 years ago

A "copy" only implies the transfer may be repeated more than once (to different hosts maybe?), it is still a one way transfer as they cannot return to the future.

reply

[–] chrisjdel 8 years ago

Perhaps the Director can't store more than one copied mind at a time. If the initial recording process is also damaging to the brain, you'd get one shot per customer and a misfire would mean death. Some Traveler candidates sit down in the transfer chair (or whatever it is they do on the future end) and reality simply ends for them. Their consciousness is lost. If there was a 1 in 3 chance of that happening would you volunteer?

reply

[–] meira-hand 8 years ago

Some Traveler candidates sit down in the transfer chair (or whatever it is they do on the future end) and reality simply ends for them. Their consciousness is lost.

Having just re-watched Dollhouse, I wonder if that was what the writers for this series envisioned (minus the time travel).

reply

[–] rubosay 8 years ago

Maybe there's no physical bodies in the future. Imagine if the consciousness of all people could be replicated in a crystal, like a microchip or something, and everybody is still "living", but in a virtual reality. In that way, all "consciousness" are immortal. That's why Trevor is the oldest one. His mind went to VR earlier than everybody else (at least from that group of Travelers). Maybe the "terrible catastrophe" that happened in the future - in order to make them travel back to try to "undo" it - was the fact that humanity could no longer reproduce or cure the ill, so they decided to transfer their minds to VR as they were dying. At least that was a way to preserve the human knowledge. They give some kind of “tip” when they show how “mesmerized” they get when they discover what a body can do. Trevor running faster, having a “morning wood”, McLaren admiring the sun out the window, Marcy walking around naked (do they know what clothes are for?)...

reply

[–] Sluggr-3 8 years ago

Trevor is about 200 in the future. I'd say that wood anytime during the day would be amazing.

My Chimp DNA seems to have lost its password temporarily. Sluggr-2

reply

[–] lynxx55 8 years ago

I got the impression that the future world is an extremely degraded and impoverished environment hence the traveler's sensual enjoyment of sunshine and growing plants. Perhaps they live in underground bunkers.

If they live as VR constructs, why would the Director want to change that? Now that we have discovered that the Director is a computer, does a computer have a sense of it's own "mortality""

reply