I honestly don't think she's that much of a good person!
Supposedly she raised a bunch of money for charity, but in the flashbacks, you see that she did all of that only to make her parents happy, and try to one-up her sister. Her motivations are extremely selfish, and she seems to be very conceited and vain, not to mention condescending! How can she be in the good place?
Honestly makes me doubt the legitimacy of "The Good Place", I have a feeling it's not really all that good...
---------------------------- Never forget what you are, the rest of the world will not.
I think it's clear by now that all four of the principal resident characters don't belong in the "good place." Tahani, in life, was big into charity in an effort to please her parents, and to one-up her famous sister, as you said. (She's also snarky, and a name-dropper.) Chidi spent his life writing a book which was never published, and never really did anything directly to benefit the human race. The other two have confessed to each other that they don't belong there (though Jason is so dumb it's hard to believe he'd be smart enough to pull off the fake monk persona from the start of his afterlife).
My guess is that it's not the "good place," but some kind of purgatory.
That sounds about right to me, and I think we're getting a strong hint from Eleanor's dialogue about what this place really is. She keeps saying there ought to be some sort of medium place. I think this is it.
I also think your purgatory idea is right, in that they probably can be promoted to the Really Good Place eventually, from this middling place. It's just a really progressive purgatory, where the cleansing of the soul is accomplished by personal growth, rather than by trials and torture as purgatory is often depicted.
"I know this ain't gonna sound good, but I just shot two people."
I don't think Chidi's book not being published constitutes a real sin or means that he wasn't a good person in his lifetime. Many of us have thwarted ambitions.
The criteria for scoring purposes seems to be very "action based"-- the effects of a single good action are amplified throughout time (sort of a "Cloud Atlas" approach.) Viewed from this perspective, I could see how Tahani's charitable endeavors ending up benefiting a huge number of people, so it ultimately accredited to her high point average. So what if she has her flaws in character? I like Tahani. There is a sweetness and vulnerability to her. She does like to connect to people, even though it is occasionally snarky. And she didn't really want Eleanor to be sent to the bad place.
But yes, in terms of afterlife places, perhaps there are good, better, best places. The scoring to get into the good place is like a video game. Then the scores are wiped clean and to advance to the next level requires a different type of scoring.
___________________________________ Never say never...
thank you, dare I say I sense this thread comes from a place of internal insecurity and jealousy in regards to Tahani/actress whom plays her? I've seen many pleasant women receive such criticism from frog-like personalities of in itself.
OP is confusing the BASE human desire to be loved with what she did to get it, which she still did receive joy from - she didn't hate anyone to get there so she chose to use her wealth to distribute it. Which she continues to do, charity of heart means something to her. Wanting to be loved isn't 'suspicious personality/neural activity' (I take it OP would still TAKE said charity, just snark at it regardless).
Tahnai's sister was rather vain, I could see why she felt she could do her own thing and get parental approval. They also explain she wanted to matter to those she loved back, regardless of their aloof attitude towards her - her 'nurturers.' That's a tough bond to not feel compelled to please, by obvious genetic and social conditions alone. That's not immoral, she is just in fact like any vulnerable human being in that situation, she did NOT choose to lash out against anyone for it. That's quite a saving grace - not to call her a shrinking violet, it takes smarts* to deal with abusive structures like that, cynics and apathetic types like that are constantly looking to prey on a woman for her 'perceived' weaknesses. That's one of the reasons males refuse to acknowledge women in environmental dynamics. There are always women to back up their theory that there is no such thing as fragility in a man or woman. We are all vile in the frog's head. Nice douc*e mentality there, I'd like to suggest people stop projecting.
Can tell the OP has never had to deal with the dual-standard in the household. It happens in many top-down family households, I'm Asian, this happens! It's worse if you're female. Me thinks someone needs to crack open a book, speak earnestly with more people before they presume to know anything. #WeCanSeeYourBias101
I think that's reading a lot into the OP's motivations. We all know people who only volunteer to look good (often people who volunteer in very hands-off fundraising-type ways, where they never have to meet any actual poor people), and hopefully we know people who are genuinely good and kind and generous. Tahani seems like the former.
I daresay Real Eleanor is the latter.
"Arguing with trolls is like playing chess with a pigeon . . . ."
I think Chidi's problem is that he was too moral and honest and hurt others because of it. It also made him inflexible and reserved from those around him. We see that with the flashback with the boots. Eleanor pushes him out of his safe comfort zone and he is growing as a result. I suspect they are all in the "middle place" that Eleanor keeps asking about. The real question is whether Michael is in on it being the middle place, or did he really think he was making a "good place"?
Jason doesn't need to be smart to pull off the fake monk. He lucked out and got mistaken for a monk that took a vow of silence. He just had to be smart enough to not correct them when they assumed "Jianyu" wanted to continue his vow. He was, however, clever in setting up his private "meditation room".
Chidi spent his life writing a book which was never published, and never really did anything directly to benefit the human race.
How do you know that? You know so little about him. You don't know why the book was not published. It could be that there were people in his life that were a problem and in the final judgement it could be that his motivations were pure and the people that interfered with him are bad. It is judgements such as yours that cause problems in the world.
You are also "judging the book by its cover".
reply share
You can't expect perfection from a person! I'm sure Tahani and Chidi never sank a ship or tricked people into becoming a designated driver. They just weren't *beep* people and were "nice".
The thing is, "The Good Place" does! They say these people are "The best of the best OF THE BEST" in the world! Something around 90% perfect. Tahani often looks down on others, and everything she does is because she wants people to like her, not because she genuinely feels the desire to do it, she talks about being friends with Beyonce, scoffs at Eleanor being almost on top of the list, and throws away Eleanor's pears with the excuse that Jyaniu is allergic, (who the hell is allergic to pears in PARADISE???) and initially, before Chidi talks her into being more forgiving towards Eleanor, she keeps saying how she doesn't deserve to be there because "she's not as good as us". She's vain, elitist and shallow. Not to mention, Michael said that each person's home would be a reflection of themselves, her house is a huge mansion, so it just goes to show how materialistc she really is.
I'm not saying she's Hitler, but she's no saint either, and I also do like her, I think she adds lightness to a show that doesn't really deal with a light subject.
I know she raised a lot of money and probably helped a lot of people, but she did it for selfish reasons, so I guess The Good Place doesn't care about whether your actions were selfish or not, as long as they were good.
---------------------------- Never forget what you are, the rest of the world will not.
reply share
I think she's written in a way where she doesn't know she's coming cross as being shallow and condescending. If you're doing it not to hurt others, would that still causes a demerit?
I think as a character, she gained her spot in the Good Place because she gained so much point through her charity. I don't think her reasoning behind this action matters and even if it was just to impress her parents, she actually did them. The Heaven system seems to work on points and she was never intentionally mean to others like Eleanor was. Well, at least I think that was what the show was going for.
She's vain, elitist and shallow. Not to mention, Michael said that each person's home would be a reflection of themselves, her house is a huge mansion, so it just goes to show how materialistc she really is.
None of those things excludes someone from being a good (or great) person.
reply share
But it's also that whole idea if you're giving to charity does it really matter the reason behind it? Not really at the end of the day you are doing something good. One could argue all charitable actions have selfish reasons behind them.
Totally right! There's a story of two people, who both have the same financial means. One gives $5 to charity out of love. The other gives $500 to charity because its the right thing to do and it makes him look good. Whose action is better? The one who is motivated by selfishness or the one who is motivated by love? The simple answer is: who has done the most good?
Viewed from this perspective, motivation is completely unimportant. The outcome is all.
___________________________________ Never say never...
I don't understand : from what I read if only the result counts, then only rich people can be considered good people so long as they give to charities, even if it's just to make themselves look good. A poor person who just cannot afford to give anything is not to be considered worthy ?
I don't understand : from what I read if only the result counts, then only rich people can be considered good people so long as they give to charities, even if it's just to make themselves look good. A poor person who just cannot afford to give anything is not to be considered worthy ?
That's how it's currently being portrayed, yes. I do think this is intentional, as a satire on rich people who smugly feel that giving lots of money while keeping the needy at arm's length will get them into Heaven.
There's obviously something off about The Good Place. We've had plenty of red flags. We just don't know what it is, yet.
As for Tahani, it's equally obvious she is some kind of fraud. Every major character (with the possible exception of Janet) is a fraud and not as they presented themselves at first. Tahani has to fit that pattern and I think a lot of her more obnoxious behavior so far stems from simply being terrified that she doesn't belong there, either. There's a "Burn the witch! No, not me--HER!" aspect to Tahani's nastier actions so far. Look at how anxious she is to curry favor with Michael.
I like Tahani. She really wants only one thing-- to be loved. All her actions speak to that goal.
She was very kind and protective of Jianyu/Jason. Part of her frustration is that here she is in the "Good Place" and has been rewarded with a "soul mate" who doesn't provide her with the love she craves.
Look where Tahani comes from. Money and status were everything. Coming from that upbringing, it is hard to change. And she does try to make others happy-- if only for her ultimate goal of being loved.
I think a LOT of people are like Tahani. And that is not a bad thing.
___________________________________ Never say never...
I also really like Tahani and I feel bad for her. As you said, all she ever wanted was to be loved, to be acknowledged that she was 'good enough' by her own family. She gets to the Good Place and is rewarded with a soulmate - and it turns out she gets screwed over again. I'm interested to see how she reacts to that.
Security is an illusion. Life is either a daring adventure or it is nothing at all. Helen Keller
Tahani spent her mortal life in considerable comfort and then went to an afterlife of equal comfort. Yeah, her family were shallow pills, but so was she. Most people in this world have been worse off than Tahani.
A poor person is equally worthy, but his/her good works are not necessarily related to money. If they are related to money, the amount is unimportant. It is the outcome.
I was walking in the street once and there was a homeless guy begging (I think he was mentally ill). Another homeless guy comes up to the first homeless guy and says to him, "Can you help me out, brother?"
Homeless Guy No. 1 reaches into his pocket and takes out about $10 -- in singles. He then gives half of all he has to Homeless Guy No. 2.
I saw this and was really impressed by Homeless Guy No. 1. How many people give half of what they have to anyone? Homeless Guy No. 1's actions had multiple ramifications. Yes, he gave another guy $5 so he could eat. But more important-- he was an inspiration to encourage others to give and give as generously.
So a poor person's actions are just as important as a rich person's money.
___________________________________ Never say never...
> I honestly don't think she's that much of a good person!
Well, she was listed in second-to-last place on the list of good people. She barely made the cut.
But, consider that we've met two people that don't belong in the good place. Maybe there are more.
One thing that I want to know more about is how Fake Janu got there. We know from this last episode that two Eleanors with the same name died at the same place at the same time. That seems like a one-in-a-trillion piece of bad luck. It would be just too amazing for two Janus to have died at the same time and place. And, if Tahani is a fake also, that's three. There has to be another way that not-so-good people are slipping into the Good Place.
-- What Would Jesus Do For A Klondike Bar (WWJDFAKB)?
I can see Chidi getting into Heaven. Yes, he wrote a boring book, but he was also a teacher. The way people act in Heaven, at least initially, reflects how they were in real life. Chidi's reaction to Eleanor's confession is to help her. He's a nice guy. He didn't just happen to arrive in Heaven like that after a lifetime of being useless. He must have been helping people all his life, just in local, personal, small ways.
Tahani is a lot more problematical (and so are many of the peripheral characters in the Good Place, who share a lot of her characteristics as shallow people with First World problems). For a start, she was rich and spoiled in life, and Jesus is famous for saying that it would be easier for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle than for a rich person to get into Heaven.
That's because she's prideful. She is also spiteful, judgmental, hypocritical, a hideous gossip, two-faced, and kinda mean. She has some depth (we know she was, if anything, the best of her horrible family), and we've seen her softer side at times, but a paragon of virtue who deserves paradise? Not even close.
I really like Tahani. She's such a wonderful friend to everyone, and she never expects anything in return. She genuinely seems to care. In the flashbacks, I got the impression she did all those things because she wanted to, but was never good enough for her family (and it may have driven her, but she still did them). I don't believe there's ever a selfless good deed anyway. We're all human. It seems like, now that she's already in the good place, she just likes to help people.
She comes across as a bit condescending at times, but considering it's literally her only flaw, I'd say she's earned a place there.
While The Good Place does only accept the most elite of humanity, it's given the audience the idea that only perfection is allowed. No one's perfect. We're not robots. No matter how good a person is, there are still flaws. He did go over the algorithm, so compared to the rest of humanity, she's in the top percentile allowed there.
It seems like the criteria for judgment in this universe have more to do with the external results of one's actions than purity of heart. I also wouldn't judge her motivations quite as harshly as some, though she's no saint.
She seems to genuinely like people and want to be helpful. If anything, she's stuck in an immature mentality since so much of what's going on with her stems from her painful, rejecting, competitive relationship with her family.
What they don't understand is that God has damned all Americans in perpetuity. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X_hcO4N7hM0 So since this is obviously some smarmy American petite bourgeois suburban wet dream it must obviously be hell. The arrogant self delusion of the inhabitants in their specialness and the defects in character that lie just beneath their surface make it obvious.
So since this is obviously some smarmy American petite bourgeois suburban wet dream it must obviously be hell. The arrogant self delusion of the inhabitants in their specialness and the defects in character that lie just beneath their surface make it obvious.
Except that Tahani is a Brit and Chidi's original backstory was that he's a Francophone, which means he's either from France or somewhere in West or Central Africa. We've also seen other minor characters who don't appear to be American.
Quite a few people really nailed it in this thread. The finale puts all the missing pieces in place that answers a lot of questions posed here.
However Tahani is still a better person than most people here I'm sure. The irony is that while it's easy to pick other people apart, it's harder for people to be introspective of their own life and flaws.
I don't know, I agree she is conceited and a bit of a snob, but I don't think her motivations were outright selfish.
Its not that she wants to one up her sister, its she wants to get out of the shadow of someone whose been better than her since they were children.
Really Tahani is a textbook case of a superiority inferiority complex, she acts all smug and constantly brings up her own successes, but really she's just treading water. Underneath it all she's very insecure.
Now she did good deeds to make herself feel better, but really its good debate whether it counts as overall good if your not doing it so much to stroke your own ego, but to stop yourself breaking down.
Besides she did apparently just barely scrape into the Good Place.