Was the last sentence an insult Film?
No; it was a question, Lena. Why did you not answer it?
Do you reject God...And you believe that it would be cruel for a God to exist that would allow us to die on Earth??
One cannot reject something, and believe something come to that, in which one has no belief. But unless you plan to die in one of the off-world colonies, then one imagines that we all will, perforce, die - on earth.
you are missing the forest through the trees. You accept this Earth is IT. That's where we start and end. Christians believe in life eternal, which honestly makes more sense even for the pure atheistic science only mind
I am not at all sure what this has to do with the observation and resultant apologetics last time that your purported deity admits to creating evil. (And what, precisely, about the notion of eternal life makes sense to 'atheistic science'?)
the Bible says in Jesus all things "consist"...(hold together)..
In which case, since evil is part of all things, Jesus partly holds together evil, or the preferred alternatives of "wicked, bad, hurt, harm, ill, sorrow, mischief, displeased, adversity, affliction, trouble, calamity, grievous, misery, and trouble". I am not surprised that one is not supposed to think that your Jesus came to bring peace. These sort of things are liable to keep good people up at night.
can readily accept destruction and creation in the context of the cosmos but when it comes to us, and God doing the same thing, which is exactly what the Bible says in Revelation, suddenly the rules don't apply and destruction and creation is a bad thing.
Since an atheist is likely to view reality as blind and purposeless, then it makes no logical sense to rail against the impersonal. (In fact facing up to, and dealing with existential angst, can be seen as one sign of growing up and facing the essential state of being, with all its ramifications.) But of believers, given that Jehovah at least is commonly portrayed as an all-good deity, then one might ask why He created bad things
deliberately and, worse, still
allows them to continue . Let alone why, when He indulges in genocide, it is necessarily considered worthy of praise. You still haven't made much headway with an explanation here.
ironic that atheists are often just fine with the evolutionary Darwinian concept of survival of the fittest
Because as just said above, natural selection - 'nature, red in tooth and claw' is not a deliberate, or a moral process - simply something driven by a need to select to survive across species.
But when God is said to have a master plan to do just this same thing but taking thousands of years to do so and using tools which we can't understand (because it's a mystery and we are not God capable of understanding right now totally how he operates and why) suddenly God is allegedly evil and genocidal?
Supposedly drowning the world was a genocide, Lena. One can argue that the story is not to be taken literally; but this does not excuse the moral position that mass murder is ever justifiable. Such an argument ought to make you uncomfortable. It does me. And that chestnut that 'god moves in mysterious ways' argument cuts both ways, since you can't argue a good reason for the depredations of the Almighty on humanity, communities and individuals, if you don't, er,
know the reasons, can you? For this atheist however, as said just earlier, even the idea of genocide is never worshipful as a means to an end. Ever.
There is also a further point: as an atheist I am often told that morality, the notions of good and evil are objective, that something evil is always bad whatever one might argue or think otherwise. It is therefore ironic that believers can turn around and claim obviously bad things such as mass killings, - if one accepts they are designed or deliberately ensured by a personality - are in fact 'good' since God did them 'and we just don't know His reasons' etc.
atheists don't like the idea of an all powerful God who they cannot see and whose rules they need to abide by with the promise of eternal life after this one. They don't like answering to God.
Atheists don't believe in God, Lena. You can't really 'like' something either way which you do not have belief in. Although I must admit I would have distaste for the
idea of a god - a subtle distinction - which commits mass murder, deliberately created childhood cancers etc, bases a religion on human sacrifice - and ultimately sends you to hell if you don't love it enough.
But, quite frankly that IS the crux of the Lucifer deception. That is why he broke away from the throne room of God, made war against God, was ousted from heaven and then convinced Adam and Eve they could obtain immortality WITHOUT God and as humanists on their own if they just simply became SMART enough. The Lucifer deception is that with knowledge you can become like God.
You are, naturally entitled to your fire-and-brimstone mythology. But once again I ought to check whether you realise that not all of the Bible is to be taken literally, as fundamentalists would have it. Genetics, for instance, tells us that there no single 'Adam and Eve' from which we are all descended.
Thinking good is evil and evil is good.
Did your deity think evil was 'good' when He created it? I guess so, since he looked at creation when done and all it seemed "very good" - significantly, not 'perfect'. At least He was consistent.
I'm well aware that railing does no good kurt2000
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LenaAFoster
8 years ago
You just keep making arguments out of "God created (moral) evil..." No. Stalemate then. Atheists have a problem with death. Even though it happens to us all. True Christians don't because to us there is no death. I mourn suffering in the world and my volunteer and career choices are geared towards alleviating human suffering. The Bible says God will judge me at the end. That's the way it is.
Are atheists also upset because they don't have inherent unlimited knowledge? Or do they accept that they have to learn, experience, study and/or go to school before gaining knowledge? Do atheists believe they should have wealth inherently? Or do they accept that they have to work and earn wealth? Do atheists believe the are entitled to love and sex from anyone just because they exist? Or do they accept they have to behave a certain way to attract a mate, build a relationship and then earn affections?
With all of the examples I mentioned I suspect the reasonable atheist would say that not only do they have to use their free will (or whatever you call it....Meat in motion?) but that the effort and voluntary choice to go get something which they consider valuable brings joy, fulfillment and happiness etc.
So, what is so hard to believe that we can live forever but that somehow through use of our free will/meat in motion (whatever term you use) we need to earn it?
Do you believe it is okay to incarcerate folks for human on human crime? A concept of reward and punishment. Free movement in society (reward for good behavior) vs jail (punishment for bad behavior)
If you do, why the exception when talking about God? If you accept those examples above, what is so hard to believe that we survive this life and get a reward (New Earth) for abiding by Gods law or death (which is the lake of fire and eternal separation from God) for not abiding?
What colonies or outposts????? You mean the ones that will cost gazillions of dollars no one has on Earth to create space ships to make so many light years away that the human life would be over before we get there? In the vacuum of space on worlds no one has established can sustain life?
Again, if you believe this is possible, what is so hard to believe about the new earth as described in the Bible?
You seem to accept a lot EXCEPT God. So everything is possible EXCEPT God? That's a lucifer deception.
No I don't believe we will have colonies all over the universe. We are told we will die then get put on a New Earth. I think the world will end before that.
I answered your question after the ETA. I'm not going to keep answering until you approve of my answer.
Galena
*Free speech opinion w/ pseudonym internet moniker w/o malice for debate and discussion🌈
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CosmopolitanHobo
8 years ago
Excuse me while I interject a little bit.
With all of the examples I mentioned I suspect the reasonable atheist would say that not only do they have to use their free will (or whatever you call it....Meat in motion?) but that the effort and voluntary choice to go get something which they consider valuable brings joy, fulfillment and happiness etc.
I can't see how this would be a reasonable or relevant response to the questions you asked in the paragraph above. Also, who calls it "Meat in motion"? I've not heard that before.
Do you believe it is okay to incarcerate folks for human on human crime? A concept of reward and punishment. Free movement in society (reward for good behavior) vs jail (punishment for bad behavior)
Punishment for 'human on human' crime is relevant to the particular crime. A man convicted of shop lifting doesn't get the same punishment as a serial killer, so why should a man who doesn't believe in God but lives a good life get the same eternal punishment as said serial killer? I am of course assuming that the serial killer isn't devoted to belief in God and as a result gets to go to heaven. While we're at it, what do you think kurt's chances are, after all he has announced that he's committed to 'sinning' throughout life simply because he gets to ask God for forgiveness once he's dead, should he get reward while someone who doesn't believe in God but happens to live a 'sin' free life gets eternity in Hell?
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LenaAFoster
8 years ago
why should a man who doesn't believe in God but lives a good life get the same eternal punishment as said serial killer? I am of course assuming that the serial killer isn't devoted to belief in God and as a result gets to go to heaven.
I think there is a word missing..the serial killer "is" devoted to God? But I think I get what you are saying.
If that's what you are saying, I would say that would be highly doubtful. WHILE he's committing the serial murders. If he was following Christ and his teachings he would not be murdering... But, any sin can be forgiven. Even that...so if the guy got to a point where he was truly repentant and accepted Christ as his savior, yes, the Bible says he could go to the New Earth.
But God knows hearts and would know if he was truly sorry in his heart. This was confirmed when Jesus was on the cross. One thief showed repentance and asked Jesus to save him and Jesus said he would be with him in paradise. The other thief on the other cross demanded Jesus show his power IF he was truly the messiah.
I don't know the exact criteria that is used to determine whether we are in the Book of Life. Only God knows Gods mind. But, Jesus paid the penalty for our sins. You say a person lived a good life. But he did not live a sinless life. All humans are sinners. The only sinless man was Jesus.
The Bible just says people will be judged according to their deeds BUT it does offer GUIDANCE as follows
Revelation 21:8
A New Heaven and a New Earth
…7The one who is victorious will inherit all things, and I will be his God, and he will be My son.
8But to the cowardly and unbelieving and abominable and murderers and sexually immoral and sorcerers and idolaters and all liars, their place will be in the lake that burns with fire and sulfur. This is the second death.”
. But, your post also seems to categorize sin. I don't think that is the way you should view this. Why? No sin is too small to be ignored and no sin is so big as to be a disqualifier from eternal life EXCEPT blasphemy against the Holy Spirit. But even then, what is blasphemy against the Holy Spirit? It is rejecting Jesus is God.
I read somewhere that this sin is impossible today because it had to do with the Pharisees witnessing Jesus perform miracles, and they knew very well he was the messiah, and we're not confused or unknowing on the issue, but despite knowing he was the promised messiah attributed his miracles to Satan, slandered him and rejected him.
However, your sins can be forgiven because of Jesus. Jesus is the bridge to heaven. He paid the penalty for our sins. By believing in him all sins great and small can be forgiven. But like blasphemy against the Holy Spirit as something which will keep you out of the book of life, sin will keep you out of the book of life unless the sin is washed clean through faith and belief in Jesus. But you have to also REPENT for your sins.
The Got Questions website is particularly good to answer some of these points so I have posted the following which says it better than I can.
Question: "Does God forgive big sins? Will God forgive a murderer?"
Answer: Many people make the mistake of believing that God forgives “little” sins such as lying, anger, and impure thoughts, but does not forgive “big” sins such as murder and adultery. This is not true. There is no sin too big that God cannot forgive it. When Jesus died on the cross, He died to pay the penalty for all of the sins of the entire world (1 John 2:2). When a person places his faith in Jesus Christ for salvation, all of his sins are forgiven. That includes past, present, and future, big or small. Jesus died to pay the penalty for all of our sins, and once they are forgiven, they are all forgiven (Colossians 1:14; Acts 10:43).
We are all guilty of sin (Romans 3:23) and deserve eternal punishment (Romans 6:23). Jesus died for us, to pay our penalty (Romans 5:8). Anyone who believes in Jesus Christ for salvation is forgiven, no matter what sins he has committed (Romans 6:23; John 3:16). Now, a murderer or adulterer will likely still face serious consequences (legal, relational, etc.) for his evil actions – more so than someone who was “just” a liar. But a murderer’s or adulterer’s sins are completely and permanently forgiven the moment he believes and places his faith in Christ.
It is not the size of the sin that is the determining factor here; it is the size of the atoning sacrifice of Christ. If the shed blood of the sinless Lamb of God is sufficient to cover all the sins of all the millions of people who would ever believe in Him, then there can be no limit to the size or types of sins covered. When He said, “It is finished,” sin was made an end of, full atonement and satisfaction for it were given, complete pardon was obtained, peace was made, and redemption from all sin was achieved. It was sure and certain and complete; nothing needs to be, or could be, added to it. Further, it was done entirely without the help of man, and cannot be undone.
Jesus has already done the work for us. He offers salvation as a free gift. All that is necessary is to open your heart to him. The Holy Spirit will do the rest.
And the reason we need to be washed pure of sin and be believers is because there will be peace and harmony on the New Earth. There's no place for those who reject God and don't like him and want to disrupt his paradise that he made for us.
There's 2 choices.
Galena
*Free speech opinion w/ pseudonym internet moniker w/o malice for debate and discussion🌈
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CosmopolitanHobo
8 years ago
I think there is a word missing..the serial killer "is" devoted to God?
Correct, that mistake passed me by.
any sin can be forgiven. Even that...so if the guy got to a point where he was truly repentant and accepted Christ as his savior, yes, the Bible says he could go to the New Earth.
So as long as one believes, fully within their heart, that God exists and kills others thinking it's right to do so, and killing is sometimes moral it seems, then they go to heaven. But old doctor Bob, who is abstinent and provides free medical work to areas of the world where people need it the most, goes to Hell because he doesn't believe in any God, any gods. Sounds fair to me!
If he was following Christ and his teachings he would not be murdering
Hmm, perhaps not, but then there's lots of death in the OT. Are we not counting that anymore, after all God is unchanging? Anyway, I thought Jesus had a feisty side?
But to the cowardly and unbelieving and abominable and murderers and sexually immoral and sorcerers and idolaters and all liars, their place will be in the lake that burns with fire and sulfur.
Well it's good to know what you believe, namely that not believing in God is on an equal footing with murder. Nope sorry, murderers can be forgiven, so it's actually worse. Does sexually immoral include any fetish, or is it more specific?
Here's what I've got from you, everything, no matter how terrible or immoral it may be can be forgiven so you go to heaven. Well, I say everything, what I mean is everything but definitely not lack of belief because that is the single worse thing anybody can do and you'll be punished for all eternity as a result no matter what your 'deeds' were through life as they don't mean diddly-squat!
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FilmFlaneur
8 years ago
You just keep making arguments out of "God created (moral) evil..."
No, Lena. I keep making arguments based on your God's supposed admission that it created
natural evil, based on specific words in Isiah. Your confusion once again is significant. However it cannot be denied that your God permits moral evil, or at the very least, by doing nothing, allows it to flourish.
Atheists have a problem with death.
I can't speak for all atheists but the one issue with death I have is that it makes the only life we have too short. If you mean I might be 'frightened' of death, then the reply is, always that why would one be scared of nothing? It is the faithful who characteristically dread all those purported judgements, doomsday, lakes of fire and all the rest.
Are atheists also upset because they don't have inherent unlimited knowledge? Or do they accept that they have to learn, experience, study and/or go to school before gaining knowledge? Do atheists believe they should have wealth inherently? Or do they accept that they have to work and earn wealth? Do atheists believe the are entitled to love and sex from anyone just because they exist? Or do they accept they have to behave a certain way to attract a mate, build a relationship and then earn affections?
You are projecting a selfishness and arrogance on atheists which may suit you to think, but which is entirely your opinion. All atheists have in common is a lack of belief in a deliberate supernatural. Atheism has nothing to do with wealth, relationships, love or sex, just as nothing to do with economics, climate change or evolution. In fact some atheists like myself, who lack belief in God, readily admit that they could be wrong. This is hardly arrogance; reflecting more aintellectual modesty and honesty.
free will/meat
I have no idea what you are on about here, sorry.
Do you believe it is okay to incarcerate folks for human on human crime?
Er.. yes why would I not? I also believe that morality is subjective, can evolve like anything else, and ultimately is an entirely human construct (but one established for compelling and continuous reason). For instance we no longer burn witches or punish for not attending church.
If you do, why the exception when talking about God?
If your god ever puts in an appearance, then I am sure then charges may be considered lol. Genocide is, after all, a serious offence is it not?
what is so hard to believe that we survive this life and get a reward (New Earth) for abiding by Gods law or death (which is the lake of fire and eternal separation from God) for not abiding?
That's the problem, it is
very easy to believe in the moral claims of any religion, as you have shown. But this does not necessarily make them correct. And there are a lot of religions out there.
What colonies or outposts?????
It was an ironic reference to
Blade Runner. "A new life in the off-world colonies awaits you..". Oh well.
if you believe this [off-world exploration] is possible, what is so hard to believe about the new earth as described in the Bible?
Because the Bible is not a scientific document and various 'heavens' are common myths for religions everywhere, while science has discovered worlds potentially similar to earth or able to sustain life and is exploring ways of space travel. But if I could choose the Muslim heaven, with its virgins, excellent food and wine & etc over singing the eternal praises of Jehovah, I know which I would rather have.
You seem to accept a lot EXCEPT God. So everything is possible EXCEPT God?
As already mentioned, as a soft atheist my position is that I do not believe in your God - but accept that I could be wrong. So your attack here is misdirected. I also accept that everything most likely has a cause, just that it is probably to be found entirely within nature at the quantum level, blind, random and eternal. But talking of exceptions: why is everything possible except other gods than yours? If so, can you show the difference between your preferred deity and the others enough to make the exception reasonable?
No I don't believe we will have colonies all over the universe. We are told we will die then get put on a New Earth. I think the world will end before that.
You are entitled to your opinion. My expectation is of a colony on Mars within the next 40 years. Don't forget to pack the flying jacket for the Rapture meantime.
I answered your question after the ETA.
ETA? What is that? Evening Theological Activity?
I'm not going to keep answering until you approve of my answer.
Sorry, but your answer needs more work. So looks like you will have to bale out here.
I'm well aware that railing does no good kurt2000
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LenaAFoster
8 years ago
No Film, my answer doesn't "need more work." And your comment about choosing a heaven with lots of virgins and wine and your life is too short honestly tells me EVERYTHING there needs to be told about WHY you are an atheist and make your absurd arguments.
I will leave it at that as this is truly just wasting my time. I'm not going to subject myself to your juvenile (mad you don't get what you want when you want it) nonsense anymore. You can have each and every last gluttonous word you like sport.
Galena
*Free speech opinion w/ pseudonym internet moniker w/o malice for debate and discussion🌈
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FilmFlaneur
8 years ago
a heaven with lots of virgins and wine
The Muslim idea of heaven is well known, Lena. Not all agree with the virgins-by-numbers to be sure but there often appears a sensuality and a side to human pleasure entirely missing from the austerity of Jehovah's version:
Qu'ran Chapter (78) sūrat l-naba (The Great News)
And all things We have recorded in a Book. (29)
So taste you (the results of your evil actions); No increase shall We give you, except in torment. (30)
Verily, for the Muttaqûn[], there will be a success (Paradise); (31)
Gardens and vineyards, (32)
And young full-breasted (mature) maidens of equal age, (33)
And a full cup (of wine). (34) etc
You just don't get these perks with Jehovah!
your life is too short
I would be worried if you think life is too long.
tells me EVERYTHING
To be honest, one doubts that you could be told anything...
I will leave it at that as this is truly just wasting my time. I'm not going to subject myself to your juvenile (mad you don't get what you want when you want it) nonsense anymore. You can have each and every last gluttonous word you like sport.
Thank you for your detailed rebuttal and refusal to bale out on this thread in the face of questioning lol.
I'm well aware that railing does no good kurt2000
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