Do you think abuse is still a problem in their relationship in Darker?
Terry Crews said "50 Shades of Grey perpetuates the evil mindset that men should dominate and control women. Even worse, women want to be controlled."
I watched FSOG for the first time and why was it so surprising to Christian that Ana left at the end? Did he really think he would be okay with beating her? It had a hard on by hurting and humiliating her.
The only abuse in this movie and the others is the belt scene in 50 Shades...and I think both of them had just got to a point...Christian thinking he could turn Ana into a Sub..and Ana wanting to touch him.,and wanting to know if she could "take it"..all this takes place in less than a month...And I have been chewed out before for saying the next comment, for being okay with abuse... which I AM NOT...but in the next book, right at the beginning, when Christian and Ana meet for dinner and Jose's Art Show, Christian asks Ana why she didn't use the safe word RED...and she tells him she forgot...and he is angry..and baffled by that...but it all works out...after lots of ups and downs.
shareHow was this abuse? Please explain it to me..
Christian said from the start...we will have rules....you will consent..IF you DONT...then walk away.... Tell me how this was abuse?
Because half the people that post haven't read the books nor seen the movie...or have seen the movie, but not read the books...the lemmings just go along with the people who object because of something they have read on the internet.
shareI've read the trilogy and saw the first installment.
Just because I think differently about the story doesn't mean I'm right or wrong. In my opinion, it's abusive
Terry Crews said "50 Shades of Grey perpetuates the evil mindset that men should dominate and control women. Even worse, women want to be controlled."
As I understand the world of BDSM..which isn't much..alike minds enjoy the parts they play...Dominant Men and Submissive Women..Submissive men and Dominant Women..and it is consensual, they have safe words..hard and soft limits...and there are hundreds of different variations of sexual gratification...
Christian's mistake, and he knows it all along, but keeps hoping, Ana will become a submissive...but then he starts changing his rules..(big NO NO)...date night..sleeping together in his bed...introducing her as his girlfriend...meeting her parents and Ana meeting his..living with him all the time, not just on weekends..he has never done any of this before..
Terry Crews seems like a great guy. Glad society is talking more about gender roles and equality.
I don't agree with the movies' message and in books 2 and 3, he loves Ana but he gets a bit too controlling for me. I know women who have husbands who stalk them and control their lives, it doesn't end well.
I understand He had a terrible childhood and adolescence, he was molested and did do not romance but it doesn't excuse him to treat Ana badly.
For example, in Freed, she has to get permission to go out with her friend and if she had stayed in with her friend in her house, she would have been kidnapped by Jack. Christian gets mad at her and then punishes her. She safe words him and then he makes her feeel guilty.
Christian tells Ana that he gets "overwhelmed" or something but she tells him the same thing in Darker, and he gets mad at her.
I understand and respect your opinions so please respect mine. You cannot change how I feel about the books/movies and vice versa.
If one's definition of " equality" is liberty and justice for one and all, then the stance of Crews and his ilk couldn't be more antithetical to such a principle. Ex. Whatever grievance one might harbor towards 50SOG as a series(crummy writing, sophomoric storyline and plot, the sex ain't nearly as steamy as the hype suggested), Anastasia Steele willingly enters the union as Christian Gray's submissive and gets back in the sack with him of her own volition. Though he doesn't explicitly say as much, Crews's thoughts seem to go something like this: "Women are equal and valuable, but mens has caused lots of wars, ya knows? So anytime a perfectly legal woman hooks up with a guy who's gots lotta issues, we oughta decry this as male privilege rearing it's ugly head once again. Women are equal and valuable, but most of the times, too incompetent and weak to say "no" to a guy who openly admits to wanting to whip, gag, and chain her to the bed." In other words, women are a special class of folks free of all accountability even after willingly submitting to a guy who admits that he's not interested in being her lover and companion, just using her as a flesh and blood punching bag. Call me crazy, but this sounds an awful lot like the Victorian conception of womanhood; unfathomably fragile and largely incapable of rational thought in any sense of that word. In other words, members of the human race who still occupy a denigrated station within the pecking order
Again..this was the authors story she wanted to tell, doesn't mean it is the right way or wrong way...but the way I understood Christian's behavior..he has never had a girlfriend...never in a 50/50 relationship...no give and take...when Ana tells him "he is smothering her"..he is hurt and bewildered..."really?"..he doesn't see it at all, he thinks he is just keeping her safe....he had never had anyone to worry about..safeguard...but he and they work it out..that is why most of us love the series.
shareAgain..this was the authors story she wanted to tell, doesn't mean it is the right way or wrong way...but the way I understood Christian's behavior..he has never had a girlfriend...never in a 50/50 relationship...no give and take...when Ana tells him "he is smothering her"..he is hurt and bewildered..."really?"..he doesn't see it at all, he thinks he is just keeping her safe....he had never had anyone to worry about..safeguard...but he and they work it out..that is why most of us love the series.
If it's a faithful adaptation to the book, then yeah, there's still abuse. He's an a-hole all the way through the epilogue of the third book.
shareA faithful adaptation? Abuse? Let's see.
Christian asked for a contract to be signed. He would be the dominate ...she would be the submissive. No love match...just rules and sex. Anna agreed ...Christian told her from the start,to expect nothing and she agreed.
Tell me again how this was abusive?
Did you read the whole book, or just skim for the sex scenes? I made the same mistake the first time I read it, and I was like, "What's the big deal? It's just bad porn." But then I read the rest of it, and he sells her car without her knowledge or permission. He also tries to finger-bang her under the table while his parents are there! And he gets "palm-twitchingly" angry when she, quelle surprise, doesn't want to be finger-banged under the same table his parents are sitting at. Like ... really, douche-bro, you couldn't figure that one out on your own? And then he carries her to his boathouse and threatens to beat (her words) her, and he tells her that he's going to **** her and that it won't be enjoyable. And this is all before she signs any contract.
She stays with him, not because she likes to be beaten and assaulted (her words), but because she thinks he'll change one day maybe. Also because she's just really, really dumb.
And then he admits to her the biggest serial killer cliche ever: he likes to beat women who look like his biological mother who he still blames despite all evidence indicating that she was the victim if a very controlling and abusive man.
Even if everything were consensual and she was into it, which she really isn't, this guy is just an insufferable jackass. I've never hated a fictional character more in my life. And I've read American Psycho. How anyone finds this pillock romantic is dumbfounding.
So yeah, that was my take on the books.
*edited because I made a silly typo, my bad*
I wish they had put the last 10 pages of 50 Shades of Grey in the movie...Christian was devastated...
shareThe finger-bang. Oh my god, I forgot that scene.
He's so turned on by the fact she says no so he continues to bother her and then has sex with her.
I'm actually proud that Ana left in the end, I mean, who wouldn't?
Christian doesn't get his way so he sulks.
Agreed, not abusive. He gave her a contract to which she agreed upon, he told her what he was going to do each time and she didn't object or refuse so it's not abuse. If he did it without consent it would be but he had consent.
shareHe didn't get her consent when he sold her car. Not only was he violating her boundaries by selling her personal property without her permission, he was also committing a crime. I don't even have a classic VW Bug, and I still would've been livid if some rich bloke thought he could just sell my car without even mentioning it to me.
Further, he admits that he got her a new car because the new car has a GPS system with which he uses to stalk her more easily.
In what universe is this considered acceptable behavior? Keep in mind that she hadn't signed his sex slave contract at that point. But even if she had, it'd still be illegal, and he's still an *beep*
Selling Ana's car is nothing like physical abuse. He over stepped by selling her car. Ana didn't "sign" the contract yet...but she wanted the spoils of it. She said she could drag it out and get her way before she signed... In the 1st book Ana leaves and ask's for her car back. Christian says it was already sold...she asked for the money, so he says he'll send her a check. What she doesn't know is he doubles the amount of what her car was sold for.
shareThe topic is "More or less abuse." It doesn't specify physical abuse. And yeah, I would most definitely consider it abusive to commit a crime against someone else by stealing and selling their personal possessions without their knowledge or permission.
You also ignored the whole finger-banging incident.
This really isn't a matter of debate anyway. Psychologists, domestic abuse experts and BDSM experts have all lambasted these books for depicting abusive behavior as a healthy BDSM relationship. Just because Grey calls it a Dom/sub relationship doesn't mean it is.
I don't think that she ever signed the contract though? And no she didn't object but then it's not exactly like he told her he was going to do some things, like sell her car as someone pointed out.
Also, as others have pointed out, this is fiction and the author had specific story she wanted to tell so naturally she didn't have Ana object to things that most women would object to.
So true..if this was real life, not sure what any of us would do...women have made bad judgements with poor guys too..trying to make these two "fit" in any way,shape or form just doesn't work...because they are fictional characters...I don't know anyone like Christian...nor do I know anyone like Ana...let alone as a couple...and I don't think Ana was that upset about her car..would this be something you or I would do?..when I was dating my future husband, he bought me a car at an auction...we were standing in the crowd, and he raised his hand..a nice Toyota with a moon roof..I thought he was crazy...but I kept it...
shareConsidering that I've been recently dealing with a stalker, in real life most women would call the police and take the next steps as necessary. Now, you probably recall better than I do, since I've only read the books once, but I thought that she was upset? Obviously not enough to call the cops lol.
when I was dating my future husband, he bought me a car at an auction...we were standing in the crowd, and he raised his hand..a nice Toyota with a moon roof..I thought he was crazy...but I kept it...
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You really have a hard time accepting other people's opinions if they don't agree with you and you give the same argument over and over.
Christian may have never had a real "girlfriend " but has he ever met a human being?
It may be fiction but it's abusive
Well...you have to give it to E.L. James...her books certainly have kept a dialog going..for or against...we all have a choice.
shareIt's weird how what some consider abuse and some don't.
Ana was more strong in the movie but I disagree agree with a lot of the plot and story. Glad she left him in the first movie, I mean who wouldn't? Being humiliated is not a great feeling.
Maybe the abuse tones down but the stalking and Christian being creepy gets worse.
If it were a woman, she would be labeled "crazy" "obsessive" and I don't think people would want to see that
We saw that in Fatal Attraction...great female stalker and abuser..poor bunny.
shareThe difference being that Glenn Close's character was portrayed as an unhinged and dangerous villain, and her stalking was taken seriously by the other characters. Comparatively, Christian Grey is portrayed as a somewhat troubled, but ultimately kind-hearted romantic hero, and Ana responds to his stalking with jokes.
shareNot really...she calls him out about it a lot in Darker and Freed..when she finds out he had a file on her, as well as all of the past subs, and he gives hers to read...just saw a photo on Facebook with that scene..and he was a stalker..but he thought it was "with good intentions'...he had never stalked any woman before Ana..so why was she different?
shareShe jokingly calls him out on it. In one scene (of many similar scenes), she jokes that she'll move to Alaska, and he jokes that he can track her cellphone. And he doesn't change. In the epilogue of the last book, he's dictating how she's going to birth her second child, and he's still pushing her to quit her job.
The dude's a bunny boiler, just like Glenn Close in Fatal Attraction. The difference is that Ana is no Michael Douglas.
As much as you try...this is not abuse. Christan spelled out what he wanted. Laid it out for Anna word for word. She stayed....so?
shareThat doesn't mean Christian is absolved of his abusive behavior. It only means that Ana is a dumbs*** for putting up with it.
shareWell..we wouldn't have this story without it...so lets all blame the author.
shareI don't know if you'd have Fifty Shades of Grey because it'd be an entirely different story if Christian wasn't a complete dick. But it's most definitely possible to have a BDSM-themed story without abuse. I don't read a lot of erotic romance novels, but I still know of quite a few novels that portray healthy BDSM relationships.
shareOther than showing her the playroom and telling her that he wanted her to "turn herself over to him" in the movie, How EXACTLY did he spell anything out to her. In the books he does show her the contract, and tells her that "people like him enjoy inflicting pain". The movie leaves all that out. She's a virgin, how is she supposed to understand things she's never experienced? Also, the books have a LOT more dialogue between the two of them than the movie. He gives her that contract AFTER taking her virginity (movie). He hardly speaks to her at all - He knew from the beginning that she was a romantic, but keeps chasing her anyway. They are both seriously attracted from the moment they laid eyes on each other. But when Ana realizes she's in love with him she knows she can't take things further until she understands everything she pretty much begs him to talk to her and since he won't she asks him to show her. When she pushes him away, you can see the shame on his face. He tries to stop her from leaving, but she's a strong young woman and she knows that she can't take things further and leaves. Her leaving almost breaks BOTH of them (books). He wants her back but because he hasn't talked to her he really doesn't understand who she is, and how much she changed herself to fit into his world (BOOKS) so he doesn't have a clue how to go about getting her back. He doesn't even know she has a job (movie). (He's going to have to get through Kate with Elliott's help) to find out. In the books she tells him that he didn't want HER, he wanted a submissive - and she was finished trying to be that for him. She's quiet and shy, but also loyal, stubborn and not the unassuming young thing he thought he'd found. AND she's extremely protective of those she loves as well as intuitive and compassionate. When he realizes who she really is, he falls deeper in love with her. (BOOKS), but it doesn't stop him from continuing to train her. (Go to sleep, Come for me baby, I want to hear you). He'd just spent a month teaching her to be quiet, stay still,liking to be tied up) Don't have a clue if they'll leave that in FSD - but it's pivotal in the book.
shareYou haven't read the books. Christian was severely damaged in his formative years. Yes, he was adopted at a young age, but damage that happens can't always be fixed by therapy or even having loving parents. Ana is the first woman who was able to actually get through but he doesn't understand what he's feeling so he does what he always has done. When she walks out on him - it devistates him but again he doesn't know why. If you've never experienced something how can you understand? He doesn't even understand why he feels so bad about it. He does get he did something wrong- but it takes his shrink to make his thoughts clearer to him. Ana never blamed him - Think about what she said when he came to her afterward. She said nothing about what he did only that he would never do it to her again. She understands that he wants her physically- but she can't give it to him. How many women would tell a man they were in love with them AFTER going through a beating like that? There's a lot more to Ana than he knows in fact he really doesn't know her at all.
shareIn the movie Christian does not show Ana the contract until AFTER he takes her virginity. He also begins to "train" her without telling her what he's doing. He tells her he never fights fair in the contract negotiation. Ana NEVER signed the contract to so she was never his submissive. He then tells her "f#^k the contract, taking her choice from her. She asks him to show her, because she doesn't know much about the whole BDSM thing. She never blames him for the beating but tells him that he will never do that to her again. She leaves when she realizes that he enjoys hurting her and can't love her. It wasn't abuse, she asked him to show her. He doesn't realize how he screwed up until AFTER he sees his shrink.
When he goes overboard he tells her "he got lost in the moment".
All of that is Christian fighting dirty. He likes to win and once he figures out he's in love with Ana, there is nothing he won't do to make sure she won't leave him again.
In addition, Christian continues "training" Ana throughout the entire series. She's smart enough to figure it out, and learns how to handle him. Christian doesn't really figure out how Ana was damaged until Kate tells him. Again, not specifically spelled out, it takes some common sense to figure it out.
shareWhile I'm not a fan of S&M I am a female and I don't consider it to be abuse. The people that are into this stuff usually talk it out with each other on what they will or won't do. They do have "safe words" and Subs aren't just women, they can be men too. I've came across people who are into S&M say that these books are promoting "dangerous" activities but Christian's contract mentions that he doesn't leave any marks on any of his submissive's. However, a woman who was being interviewed in a documentary about bondage said that her partner slapped her across the face so hard that her nose started bleeding. To me that's dangerous activity and abuse. She didn't even know that he was going to do it or gave him permission. They were having sex and out of nowhere he slaps her hard and for some strange reason she liked it and that was how it all started with her. As far as Ana getting upset and leaving, I find that being her fault because she asked him to show her how bad it could get and then not using the safe word while he was doing it.
shareShe didn't use a safe word because she did ask him to show her. She was not his submissive but when he tells her to f#¥k the contract- he took her choice from her. He wanted her but and I think at that point I think it was something he didn't mean to do but he's beginning to realize he has real feelings for Ana and subconsciously he's afraid she will never sign it. He's never had feelings for anyone and doesn't know how to handle it or even what he's beginning to feel. He's not used to being argued with, flirted with, teased, etc. It's one of the things that makes her so attractive to him. He's bored with the sameness of his life.
share
Not exactly. If she would have stood up to him and said "LISTEN, I'M NOT DOING ANY OF THIS!" then he would have listened. In fact, that's what happened. After he hits her with a belt she pushes him away and tells him not to touch her and he didn't demand that she stop when she was leaving his apartment. He didn't have nothing on her anyway. No contract, no nude pictures he could use to expose her. Nothing.
I'm sure he would have, but remember, all this is new to her. She'd been begging him to talk to her, then after the @uc$ the contract- she either accepts that he's going to punish her even if she doesn't sign and she needs to know What that means. I'm sure when the belting was happening It was so shocking to her that anyone could find pleasure in hurting someone else. She's a sweet, gentle girl, but the contract says that "the submissive will allow Dominant to punish her for purposes of discipline or for his own enjoyment." Remember what she says - THIS gives you pleasure? The look on his face is clearly shame.
shareShe knows she asked him which is why she doesn't view it as abuse either.
share