MovieChat Forums > Cobain: Montage of Heck (2015) Discussion > Nirvana fans, help me understand!!! Did ...

Nirvana fans, help me understand!!! Did he really kill himself?

posted 10 years ago by tvrdjava
29 replies | jump to latest

I'm fan of all music really. Nothing rational about music taste. But from grunge I only liked Soundgarden. I do like few Nirvana songs. And this whole Kurt story is interesting.

Movie was ok. Animations were cool. And the thing I liked the most were Kurt random writings. Even lists to do.
It didn't capture the whole story I think. I am interested in conspiracy theory of Kurt's death. Just became interested in it, after watching this, because I know lot of his fans hate Love and think she had something to do with it.

I have very little knowledge of Nirvana. I know about them like an average music fan.
But somethings were definitely lacking in this movie. David wasn't in it. It was one dimensional.
And depressing. The footage of their apartment, and everything... it made both Kurt and Love look like trash. Which they were, btw. In those moments.

I don't like these poor me, understand me please, artists. Everything is in my music. BS. If you love The Beatles, for example, you like their music but you also enjoy listening to Paul's interviews today. It's all interesting. I took them for example, it can be anyone from any genre... or any art. Movies, books. I always love hearing from the artist.

I would hate if Quentin Tarantino said ''It's all in the movies''. I love hearing his interview, the processes of creating and stuff like that.

This movie made Kurt look pathetic, pretentious, self important at some moments. I have no idea was he really like that. Or was he all those things? And also charming, and loving, too.
But it made him look too sensitive... and to me honest, dumb. Very little insight. You may think he had it, but he didn't. If he did, he would know how to change things that didn't work and make them better.
So that makes me think that he DID in fact had insight, because he was happy about having daughter, he was free of his stomach problem, then why kill himself? I don't get it. I get why people kill themselves, I get he was suicidal, but his life was getting happier, and he seemed like a loving person. And I know lots of people seem so happy and charming and then they kill themselves.
But I do think something is fishy about his death.
It looks too perfect, he was depressed misunderstood junkie. Cliche. But he didn't want to be cliche.
English is my second language, I hope you know what I mean.

So there are 2 things
He didn't want to be cliche, he was loving, depressed... lot of things. If he killed himself, he had to know he would become this junkie, weak, misunderstood pretentious artist who couldn't take it. Who couldn't get over it. It makes him look stupid. Oh god, I'm expressing myself too well I know.

basically, did he kill himself?

So many legends survived this rock and roll drugs sex bs. And became wiser. And had personal and professional evolutions. Kurt didn't seem stupid to me. BUT THIS MOVIE MADE HIM LOOK STUPID!
God, I'm so angry with this movie!
It made him look pretentious. But his love for his daughter seemed genuine. I would believe he killed himself before he had her, but after? And after he got rid of his main problem, stomach pain? come on!
Was he afraid that he couldn't create music without pain? that he couldn't create music if he was happy?
but he said, he would give it all up because of his daughter. That she was the most important thing.

Nirvana and Kurt fans, please try to clear up my confusion about Kurt and this whole mess. Was he stupid and pretentious and cared only about his music?
Or was he a guy who just wanted to be happy? I really think he was the latter. So this suicide thing makes no sense!

And I'm just watching this video on YT, basically saying Love killed him:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WRKyLfYZad4
I'm so confused!

[–] BingoFlip20943 10 years ago

I doubt it. Things about his death are indeed fishy, to say the least. This is the website of the PI Courtney hired to find him, he's absolutely convinced he was murdered www.cobaincase.com

[–] tvrdjava 10 years ago

Dude, I just watched Soaked in Bleach
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt3253624/

And I read few things up on this whole thing.
I am totally unbiased, man. Not a great fan of Nirvana, not a hater of Love, but man, I'm totally convinced she killed him!
LOL!
I am!
I love a good who dunnit!

[–] melora72 10 years ago

You are lucky you got through life as well as you did. But suicides aren't that unusual. Think of how high the rate is among Veterans coming back from the middle east. They went through a lot of trauma. Kurt was using drugs and had emotional problems and liked guns.

I've wondered how I would have felt if John Lennon had killed himself (or ODd) instead of being murdered. His murder shocked me so much it was almost like my life flashed before my eyes in a few seconds. I suppose a lot of Nirvana fans were very shocked, but I wasn't because of the coma in Rome. I saw it coming, but I was expecting him to just overdose.

[–] tvrdjava 10 years ago

No need for ad hominem attacks, man.
I'm fully aware that suicides are not rare.
If you don't focus on obvious suicidal groups: bullied kids, veterans, depression affected people,...etc, etc.
You have people who seem perfectly happy, and have every reason to live, and then they kill themselves. And people who knew them say they didn't see in coming in a million years.
So, I'm fully aware suicide is very common.
But Kurt didn't just overdose. I've never heard of someone who overdoses and THEN kills himself with a shot gun. Overdose would be enough. Especially when you see the amount of drugs he used on that fatal day. He wouldn't even be able to take a gun and pull the trigger.

[–] LockedHarpie 10 years ago

Hi OP, I think your post really nails the quandary of anyone that's interested in Nirvana and Kurt Cobain. Yes, it seems very hypocritical and opposed to what he stood for....was he deep, insightful, caring and loved all people and things, wanting true change and willing to share his thoughts with the world? Was he a mixed up junkie who had a knack for writing but really was too self absorbed and egotistical to enjoy it all?

Maybe both.

I've thought about this more than I should, and have come to the idea that Kurt is most likely a little of each. A reflection of ourselves and society as a whole, the best and worst of humanity. He was deeply caring, insightful and reflective. He also didn't have the self esteem or composure to seek healthy, caring people to surround him and was a victim of his demons.

I agree the situation with Courtney was very volatile, and I can come to terms with both outcomes. If he did commit suicide, I can see that....he was a victim of depression, mental illness, anxiety, a bad childhood and drug abuse. He was also married to a narcissistic abuser who was no help to any of his issues.

If she did kill him, I can see that too. By the time of his demise, things were bad between them, there's word that she was cheating on him (most likely with ex boyfriend Billy Corgan). Cobain wrapped a lot of his ego up in her, with a very unhealthy codependent thing going on. She said that he asked her to Rome to rekindle what they once had and she had no interest in it. She says she "should've laid him" which reveals that she was withholding sex, love and attention. Him being a sensitive soul, this could've been very damaging to him. They had talked divorce and she was taped talking about how well she'd do if he died.

So until she's proven guilty or more proof comes out, we'll have to accept both. I'm 50/50 on it. You do bring up great points and I appreciate you posting them :)

I can go on and on...But I'm kinda drunk and typing is kinda complicating right now,

[–] tvrdjava 10 years ago

I can see how you think maybe he killed himself or Love was involved.
And I get both scenarios.
But man, after watching Soaked in Bleach I became convinced that she had something to do with it.

Again innocent until proven guilty.
But this whole case reminds me of OJ, kind of.
Only, if she did do it, she committed the perfect crime. She was more smart about it.

The only thing that bugs me, if she had something to do with it: all these years, during his life and after, she was using drugs. I can not believe that under the influence she didn't say something that would incriminate her. That she had such control even when she was out of it because of drugs. That means that either she didn't do it, or she was lucky.

I don't know man. Soaked in Bleach presented very strong case that something was very fishy about Kurt's death.
I'm not big on conspiracies, but this one left me in shock.
I watched both documentaries almost 2 weeks ago, and I'm still thinking about it.

And in Montage of Heck she said she didn't cheat. I was like, yeah right. Billy Corgan was definitely one of her lovers, but I bet there were more.
And poor Billy. She definitely used him for his songwriting. She was an user. Of drugs, obviously, and people.

[–] LockedHarpie 10 years ago

I haven't seen Soaked In Bleach yet but now I'm really intrigued. I've always thought, like you, it's really odd she never divulged while on drugs, if she was involved. I'd love to know the truth. It's a damn shame they won't reopen the case. I've gotta see this.

I can go on and on...But I'm kinda drunk and typing is kinda complicating right now,

[–] LONDON537 10 years ago

I gotta check out Soaked in Bleach now. I think I heard about it once, but forgot until you brought it up.
I always thought Kurt & Courtney did an excellent job of making her look guilty, without initially intending to.

All these years later (I was 15 when he died, and Nirvana was my first concert one of my fav bands at the time), I still can't decide which is the truth - suicide or murder. But one thing that's always nagged me - if it was suicide, no matter what you think of Courtney up to that point, I feel so terribly sorry for her - She's a victim cast as the villain. Yes, she most certainly had problems, but can you be surprised how much worse she got with the way everyone but her most loyal fan base treat her?

[–] melora72 10 years ago

Most of the people who see "Kurt and Courtney" fail to notice that the film maker concludes that it was a suicide but the CL contributed to his instability.

You have a good point in saying Courtney is probably a victim cast as a villain. I've always thought it was a suicide and feeling sorry for Courtney is probably why the accusations bother me so much. Kurt's attitude about attacks on Courtney makes it seem so disrespectful of Kurt. Some people think she's such a bitch that it doesn't matter if she's not guilty, she deserves all the bad treatment she gets.

Kurt was estranged from just about everybody. If there was a divorce threat I doubt it was a for-sure thing yet. The drug level is the thing that makes me wonder most, but some say he has a really high tolerance. And the level is based on what an ANONYMOUS SOURCE told the Seattle Post Intelligencer. Not from the autopsy, which is considered a private medical record by Washington State law.

I have some quotes by people who knew Kurt. Grant claims all Kurt's friends thought he was in good spirits but these are all people who think it was suicide. Contrary to Grant, it was known by a lot of people that Rome was not an accident. It wouldn't hurt people to do a little research into suicide, especially suicide myths It might save you or someone you know.

---------------------------------

He liked to sleep a lot. Oh my God, he slept all the time! He'd nod off in a corner. Then he discovered heroin and that was perfect for him, always feeling half awake, half asleep. Then he killed himself. Sleep forever."
Krist Novoselic http://www.novoselic.com/

"Sometimes you just can’t save someone from themselves" - Dave Grohl

That was a thing that he planned, and it sucks and I wish that something could have been done, but he didn't want it to be done. Peter Buck, NME, Sept 24, 1994

"I spoke to him on the telephone a lot the week and a half before he disappeared," says Stipe. "We wanted to collaborate. I thought it was something that could have pulled him out of the frame of mind he was in and get him to a place where positive stuff was going on." - Michael Stipe- Time 9/26/94

(More recently Stipe said that the car they had hired to take Kurt to the airport waited for 10 hours. Kurt refused to come out and would not answer phone calls. He finally called Stipe and said he couldn't come, then he left Seattle for rehab.)

my ex-wife was Kurt's lawyer and the godmother of their kid . . . And I knew that he tried to commit suicide in Par-- in Rome; I knew that wasn't some prescription drug thing. - Jim Carroll
http://www.catholicboy.com-asp/bg24int.asp

"Oh, *that* *beep* Uh, no. I think he's just a *beep* A total incompetent. I was with him for three days when he came up here. He is a total incompetent. He couldn't find his ass with a map." - Dylan Carlson on Tom Grant
http://dsl.org/earth/dylanint.shtml

[–] tvrdjava 9 years ago

But man, why would he shoot himself after he took HUGE amount of heroin. Every experienced heroin user wouldn't do that, and they couldn't handle that amount of heroin.
But if you overdose, there is really no point to shoot yourself, you even wouldn't be capable.

Listen. If Courtney is innocent, she is a perfect villain, and I feel sorry for her.
But so much stuff, Soaked in Bleach blew my mind, and stuff I read afterwards. And I was searching for the other side of the story. The story where Courtney is innocent.
But that story is extremely fishy.
I'm really starting to believe she did it. She was involved.
But then again, we will never know for sure.
It's really fascinating.

Only thing is. Courtney was a huge junkie. I can't believe she didn't incriminate herself why being high. But then again, in Soaked in Bleach you hear her saying some weird stuff.

I have no agenda. I'm an average Nirvana fan who loved Nevermind, and other few songs, you know. Objectively there is so much stuff that point to Courtney being involved.
If she is not, I'm sorry how public see's her. And you know, she is wacky, if she was never married to Kurt she would be one of those people who you either hate or love.
I don't love her or hate her. I like her acting in few movies.
Man, the whole thing is very strange.
I think she was involved.
Soaked in Bleach man, just watch it.

[–] joakes-17128 9 years ago

Regular users build up a tolerance early on. What's lethal for the average person may not even have much of an effect on a full blown heroin addict. There are plenty of reasons to dislike Courtney Love, but she didn't kill Kurt. These accusations have been going on ever since his death and you'll find they're all completely unfounded when you actually do your own research instead of just believing what these nut jobs are spoon feeding you.

[–] 9 years ago

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[–] joakes-17128 9 years ago

I believed that nonsense when I was a teenager, but then I actually did some independent research and found most of the accusations to be completely unfounded

[–] 9 years ago

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[–] joakes-17128 9 years ago

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Death_of_Kurt_Cobain

[–] joakes-17128 9 years ago

If you can point to some actual evidence, I can try and address it. The only "evidence" I've ever seen is a bunch of wild speculation and he said/ she said anecdotes. Anybody who believes he was murdered obvioisly doesn't understand anything about his music.

[–] 9 years ago

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[–] joakes-17128 9 years ago

The actual amount of heroin in his blood stream at the time has been, as the police department is not allowed to release that kind of information. Even still, there's no real consensus in the scientific community on how much is required for aong time addict to overdose. Every person has a different tolerance level. None of your so called "evidence" even comes close to proving anything. Courtney has said a lot of crazy *beep* over the years, it doesn't mean she was behind Kurt's death.

[–] 9 years ago

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[–] 9 years ago

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[–] joakes-17128 9 years ago

It must be true since somebody wrote a book about it. Can't argue with that logic.

[–] rooster-rousseau 9 years ago

With the amount of H found in his system, he'd have overdosed before he would be able to grab the gun and shoot himself. Tolerance is e relevant, thats alot of heroin in his system. He was murdered. Probably Not by Courtney s hand, but she had a role in it I'm sure.

[–] joakes-17128 9 years ago

Not true. There is no consensus in the scientific community for what constitutes a "lethal dose" of heroin. There have been addicts on record who have taken up to 2,000 mgs of H in one day without even getting sick. The number that keeps getting thrown around by Cobain muder theorists is 225 mgs in his system even though there's no way to confirm this since the Seattle Police Department never released the actual results to the public.

[–] 9 years ago

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[–] ultravio13 8 years ago

That is complete nonsense.What you are referring to is a study done in the 30s. What you are leaving out is that the addicts were given 1,800 - 2000 mgs of Morphine, not Heroin. In fact what Cobain had in his system was a huge amount and probably would've killed him on its own.

[–] yusef-ghanima 9 years ago

it's really not cobain's fault that you are such a stupid ugly bald worthless creature.

[–] GhostXXX 9 years ago

According to reports he was holding the barrel of the gun with his left hand with his right hand laying next to him. If you look at the picture that is taken from outside the greenhouse with him laying on the floor you will see that not only is his right arm laying next to him but his hand is closed in a fist. There is no way he could have pulled the trigger and hand his hand magicly fall next to him in a closed fist. But either way even if he didn't pull the trigger I feel the level of herion in his system would have been enough to kill him or he would anyway or probably would have died of an overdose not long after anyway.

[–] nephihaha 8 years ago

Personally I think the jury's out on his death. The police handled it very badly leaving a lot of loose ends.

However, what is clear is that throughout Cobain's life he suffered MASSIVE depression. It takes one to know one. You can see it in his writings, his music and even the way he spoke. Drugs and alcohol probably made him worse.

He continually got gut ache which was probably connected with the misproduction of serotonin in his intestines.

Someone says earlier in the thread that Cobain slept a lot - another tell tale symptom of depression along with his social withdrawal in the last few days.

So I'm not saying he did commit suicide, but that he was likely to at some point. There are some very fishy things about his death though.

--
It's not "Sci-Fi", it's "SF"!

"Calvinism is a very liberal religious ethos." - Truekiwijoker

[–] nephihaha 8 years ago

Just out of interest, I went online to see if anyone thinks Yoko had John Lennon killed and the answer is yes. Obviously it was a murder but someone out there blames Yoko.
http://lennonmurdertruth.com/footnotes.asp?id=77

--
It's not "Sci-Fi", it's "SF"!

"Calvinism is a very liberal religious ethos." - Truekiwijoker