A trip down **White Trash Lane NW** - Cobain: Montage of Heck (2015) Discussion

[–] Jeff0015 10 years ago

He was an artistic genius, born into a bad situation. That's what gave us so much great music.

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[–] Bwizzle420 10 years ago

This^^

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[–] BulmaPunkRocker 10 years ago

You didn't get it. The part of the "slow fat girl" and the suicide attempt, that is part of Kurt fertile imagination and his tendency to exagerate things and facts, making him a great storyteller (kind of "Big Fish"). He is known for that.
You should read the Buzz Osborne "review" of the documentary. He states that the story is total fabrication (Buzz attended the same HS, how, if that was such a great scandal in that little town, a friend who attended the same HS never heard of it?). Even in "Heavier Than Heaven" (a biography that was authorized by Courtney) it is stated that Kurt's tendency to "adorn" situations and exagerate, or even create situtions, was present in his early teens.

Please excuse my terrible redaction, english is not my native language IMDb = Catch-22

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[–] Thought_Criminal_J62377 10 years ago

I thank you for not fanatically calling me names in defense of Cobain, but what you call a fertile imagination, could also fairly be called outright lying. In the end it doesn't matter if it's true though, his character is still on display. He was crude and classless, white-trash. He and Courtney even referred to themselves as white-trash.

Your signature apologizes for your English, but your savvy use of the language in defending Cobain is quite impressive. You've referred to his lying as a "fertile imagination" and a "tendency to adorn or create situations."

Not to argue but wasn't his "retarded fat girl" story supposed to have happened in his later teens, like 16 or so?

Yea, Tho I Walk Thru The Valley Of The Shadow Of Political Correctness...🇺🇸

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[–] 10 years ago

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[–] Thought_Criminal_J62377 10 years ago

He uses stories which aren't exactly true to express something more honest about himself than straight facts can portray.

I'm trying to be fair here, but does lying enable a person to express a truth more effectively than the truth does? For example, we'll examine the overweight girl story, that he calls "retarded and fat." If the truth that he wants to convey is how awkward and humble he was growing up, couldn't he have just said I was so awkward and humble that I couldn't approach girls?

The fact he tells the unflattering story about himself and the fat retard shows he's not lying for personal gain but just that's how his mind works.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't that story come from his private diary/journal type thing? I agree it's not flattering to him, but it being private would explain why so-and-so never heard it in school. My issue with this story isn't whether it's true or not(I take it for the truth), it's that he was so crude and insensitive as to describe a girl, that he tried to use for sex, in those crude and unflattering terms, even if she wasn't real it still exposes his internal ugliness. And was there any good reason that anyone(but a Kurt Cobain brand kool-aid drinker) could excuse how he ended that story with a description of the smell of her private area? See you guys are missing the point or maybe you don't share my values, but I was raised with certain standards and just don't talk like or even view girls like that. Females are human beings and no one should look at them as a "good time," to be manipulated till you've got what you want.

He also told a story about stealing his dads guns and selling them to buy guitars or something, when in reality I think he threw them into the river...

This story however could easily be a lie for his benefit. 1) It's anti-gun and what liberal person basking in Cobain culture doesn't love that? 2) Teen rebelling against racist dad and teen rebelling against parents in general is great for his image with the disenchanted youth. 3) A musician, so desperate to own the very instrument by which he can express himself and bestow his gift upon the world, that he has to steal his dad's guns to raise cash. What fan isn't gonna eat that up? And for that matter, what human being isn't gonna eat that up?

I never liked Cobain after people tried to deify him and was surprised that the documentary substantiated my reasons. I figured it would do the opposite.

FACTUAL DISCLOSURE: I am and always was a Metalhead(true Metal like Slayer). I made the mistake of buying one Nirvana CD and only listened to it a handful of times, enough to know that I didn't like it. Same goes for Nine Inch Nails and Faith No More... ALL GARBAGE! That's my opinion and will always be.

Yea, Tho I Walk Thru The Valley Of The Shadow Of Political Correctness...🇺🇸

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[–] joakes-17128 9 years ago

I don't know what was going through his head a when he wrote that, but Kurt was actually one of the biggest supporters of women in rock and constantly called out the misogyny that was rampant in most of rock and metal at the time. The egalitarian nature of indie rock was one of the main things that drew him to it. He was good friends with a lot of female musicians like Kathleen Hannah and Kim Gordon. Many of his biggest musical influences were women or at least female fronted groups (eg. Pixies, Vaselines, Sonic Youth, Raincoats, Slits, etc).

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[–] BridgitteVonHammersmark 9 years ago

I don't think he was anti gun as he has posed several times with different firearms and he owned them as that was his method of suicide.

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[–] BulmaPunkRocker 10 years ago

Thank you for your kind words about my english.

I'm not trying to "change your mind", I just wanted to introduce you a part of Kurt's personality that I thought you was unfamiliar with.
The infamous story it supposed to have happened when he was 16, as you said. I wouldn't call that age "later teens", it is just the perfect teenager age. He was just moving back to Aberdeen from Montesano, where he was quite popular (handsome boy, into sports) and in Aberdeen he was an outcast, but he had a few flirts with nice girls.
From all I have read in more than 23 years, and heard, from Kurt himself, his friends and family, IMHO he wasn't a liar (like Courtney, who invents things out of nowhere and then contradicts herself), but he indeed exaggerated the facts. He also lied too (he stated his first concert was Black Flag, it was actually Sammy Hagar) and indeed was a conflictive teen. But his parents didn't manage it well (at least his father tried).

I think there are millions of young kids with similar lifes... that's why he was (and he is) so "loved". A "white trash" kid from a nowhere town, with artistic talent, who wrote music that was so easy to feel related. The whole "rock-star" part is another story.

I feel this movie didn't help Kurt & Courtney's image at all, but if their daughter wanted to show us this, I respect her decision. She never knew his father and the media have been writing terrible things about her when she wasn't even born. I admire her very much.

Please excuse my terrible redaction, english is not my native language IMDb = Catch-22

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[–] Thought_Criminal_J62377 10 years ago

The age of 16 in the USA is semi-adulthood, that's why I called it later teens. In our culture at 16 you're not a little kid anymore and driving a car and getting a job are allowed or expected even.

If you get some enjoyment out of Kurt Cobain and Nirvana, I'm glad for you. I never did though and I disapprove of his attitudes, especially about the overweight girl and about his flirtation with homosexuality, etc,.

Yea, Tho I Walk Thru The Valley Of The Shadow Of Political Correctness...🇺🇸

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[–] 10 years ago

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[–] sabar-1 10 years ago

OP, I agree with some of your points. I was disappointed. I didn't know much about him as a person and figured he was one of those tortured artist types. I fully admit that I don't understand people like him. I get that his music/lyrics display talent - I liked Nirvana's songs even though I was older and didn't identify with them all that much.

However. It appears he was selfish and clueless. I was appalled that his first girlfriend supported him while he wasted away the day acting like a ten year old, fancying himself the aforementioned artist, too great to help out financially or in any other fashion. And apparently blamed his parents and stepmother before that for his own crappy behavior. Even more appalling was his inability to care for his child, before and after birth. I didn't care too much for Love anyway, now I detest her.

🐈 Rachel

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[–] dmaire1221-222-44515 10 years ago

I truly don't understand why anyone would put a band up on a pedestal . I am sure the majority didn't . I think most just wanted the point to be made this is our style and we are different from the last generation . Just like the Emo generation .

I think there is more to the story then he had sex with a slow girl . The fact that a teen having the thoughts of killing himself and he didn't want to die a virgin. Then having a plan and executing that plan is a big red flag. It is more then an unruly teen . It shows more of a sign of a chemical imbalance . As for his version of the story and this heavy set girl. It sounds like just that a story .I highly doubt even if she was slow that she would just jump at the offer if it presented in those words .

As far as being " White Trash " I think that was a image he wanted to paint himself into .

Being a talented musician has nothing to do with character of a person . Being a voice for a generation was something the media put out there . I think the generation has their own voice .

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[–] Thought_Criminal_J62377 10 years ago

As far as being " White Trash " I think that was a image he wanted to paint himself into.

Look and listen to his mom, if she isn't white-trash, I don't know what is. Look at Courtney Love, if she's not white-trash... etc,. What I think that he painted or constructed, was this image of being mistreated and having a good reason to be suicidal. He seemed like a spoiled kid who couldn't accept when he didn't get his way. Like everything had to be Kurt's way or he'd just kill himself. An example of this is how he became disgruntled and unruly when he couldn't be the center of his dad and stepmom's attention, because they had other kid's too.

I'm a fan of the band Savatage and their guitarist(Cris Oliva) was hit and killed by a drunk driver in 1993(30 years old). I read an article that contrasted his death and public reaction to Cobain's and how unjust that was. Cris died with very little fanfare, when his death was much more tragic. And then Cobain chooses to kill himself and the world goes nuts. I'd argue that Cris was much more talented, too.

Having ones life stolen from them is alot sadder than a person choosing to kill themselves without serious justification. Maybe you're right, maybe Cobain did suffer from mental illness.

Yea, Tho I Walk Thru The Valley Of The Shadow Of Political Correctness...🇺🇸

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[–] dmaire1221-222-44515 10 years ago

Look and listen to his mom, if she isn't white-trash, I don't know what is. Look at Courtney Love, if she's not white-trash... etc,. What I think that he painted or constructed, was this image of being mistreated and having a good reason to be suicidal. He seemed like a spoiled kid who couldn't accept when he didn't get his way. Like everything had to be Kurt's way or he'd just kill himself. An example of this is how he became disgruntled and unruly when he couldn't be the center of his dad and stepmom's attention, because they had other kid's too.

Nirvana was a very talented band ...They were like no other band out there and Kurt Cobain was so unique with his style of singing and writing . He just didn't know it . Yet he was no GOD ........He wasn't a perfect person with all the answers .

There are other documentaries out there that don't focus on the down side or dark side of Kurt Cobain . These are his diaries and I don't see white trash when I look at his mother . I see a mother that didn't know how to help him . What to do or how to fix it . Where do you see white trash with his mother ? She had other children that went on to live normal lives . She did the best she could and so did the rest of the family . It is hard to live or even understand what is going on with that person or child . What I would say to them is stop looking for what you did wrong . Stop blaming yourself or living with guilt . In their era doctors knew little to nothing to what is happening to your child . When they become adults you have no control on helping them. You cant force them to get help .

Do you think it is normal for a 12 year old child that wants to die ? Then makes a plan to die and executes that plan but it doesn't work . Its called Manic Depression or Bipolar . At that point in time the doctors nor the medical community didn't know much about it or how to treat it . I see it all the time. You are reading his diaries about his dark side because that is all this film is about the dark side of Kurt Cobain . I am sure there was or is good things in his diaries about how happy he was . Who knows what was removed from the diaries .

Prior to hitting 12 he was a normal happy kid . In the other documentaries he talks about how he had a happy childhood up in till then . How he loved his mother and she was so affectionate with him . His father was intolerant with him . Then he goes back to the mother how supportive she was of his art . Brags how his aunt was so loving and started him on the thought of pursuing music . She was a musician herself .

Spoil brat ???? You think he was spoiled ? He was one messed up soul . Only 50 percent of those who suffer from Bipolar will ever make it to age 50 or 60 . He was the percentage that didn't make it . It is a horrible mental illness . They get happy and then it becomes a high that creates chaos . Then there is the crash and most of the time they cant see the light at the end of the tunnel . They hate themselves and everything around them . MOST self medicate themselves . They hide the dark side and even the closes friends don't see it

Someone that takes enough heroin in their system for them to OD and then puts a bullet in his head really wanted to end his life . He wanted to make sure no more almost dying . He wanted all the pain to stop . Really if he didn't have Frances his daughter I think he would have checkout much sooner . Courtney's version of him trying to kill himself because he though she was cheating on him doesn't even make sense . It was there before he met her and it was a train wreck waiting to happen .

Courtney I wouldn't say she is white trash as much as messed up . She has her own problems . She lacks self worth and sells herself short . I hope one day she gets help and finds her away to just be satisfied with normal . Stops latching on to rich and famous to be in the spotlight . Only for them to use her and toss her away . I hope she finds peace of mind and happiness .

It is horrible when someone dies so young in a accident . Yes they had no control over their death . Do you think those who suffer from depression have control over how their mind works ? It is just sad for both .

The victim in all of this is France Bean Cobain .

I grew up in generation Y and I have no dog in this fight . I love good music and Nirvana was great music . It was talent with a T and was so different . There are others that were good from the 90s "Smashing Pumpkins " " Nine Inch Nails "

You should check out some of the documentaries that were interviews with him (Kurt). It was once upon a time when he was writing a book . He himself guess he was manic depressive and it was his upside when talking to the journalist . How happy he was with his wife and child . Then how fast it change from happy to depressing . It is his own words on the tape recordings .

I cant name it . You are just going to have to look for it because no advertising on this sight . It won award after award at Sundance and it was the same writer that wrote the book on the whole band ( with their permission ) There are your clues .

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[–] Thought_Criminal_J62377 10 years ago

Spoiled or bi-polar I don't know, but I stand by what I said with the qualifier that maybe you're right that he was mentally ill. Nirvana wasn't anything special through my eyes and Kurt's vocals were very monotonous and boring as far as I'm concerned.

In my opinion the kid would be as much a victim if Cobain was still alive as she is now. He and Courtney are/were white trash and if Kurt was bi-polar that wouldn't be a good environment for a kid either

Yea, Tho I Walk Thru The Valley Of The Shadow Of Political Correctness...🇺🇸

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[–] joakes-17128 9 years ago

I'm no mental health expert, but you seem to lack the most basic understanding of how mental illness works. Bi-polar depression is not a phase that one can just "get over it" like being dumped by a high school crush. It's a chemical imbalance and unless you've actually had to live with it, you should probably reserve judgment. No human is perfect and when your life is constantly under scrutiny, people are going to dig some ugly truths about you. That shouldn't negate any of your accomplishments though.

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[–] frankzappayay 10 years ago

He didn't call her retarded, he said quiet. Watch the movie... he says it was others who called her retarded. And spelling has nothing to do with intelligence, it is more to do with his motivation to study at school. And he did far more than write lyrics, he wrote the entire songs. It is amazing you can't understand what made him so special.

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[–] Thought_Criminal_J62377 10 years ago

He didn't call her retarded, he said quiet. Watch the movie... he says it was others who called her retarded.

I disagree with you, but that doesn't matter since he said other distasteful things and it's okay for him to be amazing to you, he's nothing special to me.

Yea, Tho I Walk Thru The Valley Of The Shadow Of Political Correctness...🇺🇸

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[–] frankzappayay 8 years ago

You can't disagree, watch the movie and see for yourself. There is no debate. He never called her retarded.

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[–] Thought_Criminal_J62377 8 years ago

watch the movie and see for yourself

I watched the movie and saw for myself.

He never called her retarded.

No, he called her fat, quiet and illiterate and... well let's let him tell the story in his white-trashy way.

"I wasn't going out of this world without actually knowing what it was like to get laid.[classy] So one day after school I went to the girls house, alone, and invited myself in and she offered me some twinkies. And I sat on her lap and said "Let's F#@k!"[classy] And I touched her t!t$[classy] and she went into her bedroom and got undressed in front of me. And I watched and realized that it was actually happening. So I tried to F#@k[classy] her, but didn't know how and asked her if she'd ever done this before. And she said a lot of times, but mainly with her cousin. I got grossed out very heavily with how her vagina smelled and her sweat reeked[superclassy], so I left."

This piece of trash is sure worthy of someone's admiration, isn't he? And what kind of worthless loser, lies about having sex with girls to avoid being made fun of? Not me. In fact, I did just the opposite to save girls reputations. I'm not Cobaine, though, I'm not a professional whiner and poor little victim. I'd say Nirvana started the whiny, "I'm so tortured and abused" movement that has turned American youth into *beep*.

My Crime Is Prohibited Thought, My Oppressors Are Bleeding Heart Liberals

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[–] frankzappayay 8 years ago

So you proved yourself wrong, he didn't call her retarded. Also talking about getting laid and tits is not unclassy, you just have a weird perspective. Also none of this story is true, he made it all up. And he never lied about sex to avoid being made fun of, he had a long term girlfriend at high school. Also your last sentence is garbage.

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[–] Thought_Criminal_J62377 8 years ago

So you proved yourself wrong, he didn't call her retarded.

Duh, I amended that. But what he said was no less offensive.

Also talking about getting laid and tits is not unclassy, you just have a weird perspective.

You're the one with the white trashy weird perspective, Mr Frank Zappa(the grandfather of scumbag freakhood) FAN. I'm 39 and I've never ever said "I gotta get laid" and no I don't use immature slang terms for the female anatomy, it's degrading and disrespectful, but I don't expect Frank Zappa to understand. You conveniently left out how he seduces a slow, illiterate girl, too. "Let's F#@k" is about as classy as you, Frank and everyone that shares your White Trashy perspective. That's right, I called you white trash, because you obviously are, you just don't know it.

Also none of this story is true, he made it all up. And he never lied about sex to avoid being made fun of

So he's a liar, which goes along with his character(lying about having sex) and the movie said it was true. You're just a white trashy fan that wants to deny everything, that portrays him in a bad light.

He was married to Courtney Love and you're trying to defend his honor. LOL She alone proves how classless and white trashy he was and vice-versa.

My Crime Is Prohibited Thought, My Oppressors Are Bleeding Heart Liberals

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[–] frankzappayay 8 years ago

Duh, I amended that. But what he said was no less offensive.

You should amend everything because it is stupid. And what he said wasn't offensive.

I don't use immature slang terms for the female anatomy, it's degrading and disrespectful, but I don't expect Frank Zappa to understand. You conveniently left out how he seduces a slow, illiterate girl, too. "Let's F#@k" is about as classy as you, Frank and everyone that shares your White Trashy perspective. That's right, I called you white trash, because you obviously are, you just don't know it.

Wow you have major problems. First off, nobody is disrespected by saying they "got laid." It is slang and there is nothing wrong with it. Also Zappa was smarter and classier than you will ever be, you clearly know nothing about him. Also I didn't conveniently leave anything out, he didn't seduce the girl because that wasn't in the story, and like I said, the story wasn't true anyway. Also you can call me white trash all you want, but it doesn't make it true. It shows how simple minded you are that you think people are either classy gentlemen, or white trash.

So he's a liar, which goes along with his character(lying about having sex) and the movie said it was true. You're just a white trashy fan that wants to deny everything, that portrays him in a bad light.

He was married to Courtney Love and you're trying to defend his honor. LOL She alone proves how classless and white trashy he was and vice-versa.

Yes he is a liar, he lied more often than he told the truth. You seem to want to pretend he lied about having sex like it was some kind of achievement... yet he was talking about a disgusting experience with a girl who needed no seduction. That makes no sense. Kurt had nice girlfriends he could have blabbed about if he was that sort of person, he wasn't.

And it isn't a matter of me wanting to deny that the movie is true, the movie just isn't accurate. One of his closest friends growing up says it is 90% bs.

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[–] tvrdjava 10 years ago

Right!
As a unbiased watcher, I agree with you.
This whole movie was one huge wtf moment!

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[–] Thought_Criminal_J62377 10 years ago

Thank you! What a breath of fresh air it is to hear from someone, not looking to argue or call me names. (LOL)

Yea, Tho I Walk Thru The Valley Of The Shadow Of Political Correctness...🇺🇸

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[–] intangible103 10 years ago

Its very easy to hold a person who's been dead 20 years accountable for the thoughts written in his private journals.

Isn't it?

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[–] Thought_Criminal_J62377 10 years ago

If I were the type to keep a journal or diary it wouldn't have stories about(in his words not mine) "fat, retarded girls that I asked to f*%k." How sophisticated and classy is that?

Sorry, the angle you've taken in his defense, will not work on me. I've never asked a girl to "f*%k." For me it just happens as feelings grow and I wouldn't be so crude or tasteless to use those adjectives to describe her.

Do most guys talk like him? No one that replies in his defense, seems to get what I'm saying. Sure, I've known guys like that, but they weren't my close friends. I guess I just didn't hang out with artistic geniuses.

His attitude was nothing to be proud of.

Yea, Tho I Walk Thru The Valley Of The Shadow Of Political Correctness...🇺🇸

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[–] lola_724 10 years ago

I agree with you completely. I found that whole episode repulsive and whether fake or not is missing the point. Tasteless, classless, vulgar -- it reflected quite poorly on his character. Throughout the documentary I found both him and Love repellent.

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[–] Thought_Criminal_J62377 10 years ago

Thank you! Well said...

Yea, Tho I Walk Thru The Valley Of The Shadow Of Political Correctness...🇺🇸

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