They didn't specify, but we did see Thanos turn back time, resurrect Vision, and reassemble a destroyed Infinity Stone, then continue on with the timeline as if nothing had happened. We don't know exactly what the rules are for an alteration like that via Time Stone. According to the rules set forth in Endgame, had he used Pym Particles to go back in time, he would have caused a split at the moment of Vision's death. In Timeline A, Vision stays dead and the Mind Stone remains destroyed, while everyone in Thanos' reality is now in a new branch in which he has all the Infinity Stones. But that can't be the case, as 100% of the time he shows up late, then uses the Time Stone to turn back time, so the implication is that time travel via Time Stone works differently than time travel via other means, and doesn't cause split timelines.
The above offers a very different take on Dr. Strange's statement about all the timelines he viewed. If he saw 14,000,605 timelines, and only 1 in which they won, it seems highly unlikely that he knew everything after his death would play out as needed. That means he had to know what action was the pivotal one that creates the 1 in 14,000,605 victorious timeline. I am now of the opinion that he delayed an inevitable defeat on Titan, and timed everything to get Thanos the Time Stone at the last possible second, when it was too late to get the Mind Stone without using the Time Stone. Sure, it could have been any little thing that happened between him coming out of his time hunt and his death, but an action that leads to the destruction and recreation of an Infinity Stone strikes me as a 1 in a 14,000,605 event in its own right, and just the sort of event that would be the outlier, "our heroes win," action.
reply
share
arflexit (2376)
4 years ago
Yeah, you dug into that much more than I would have. Just going through your statement started to get my head spinning about the time loops and contingencies and adverse effects and how the 'parallel universes' can relate or not relate to each other; are 'our heroes' even in their original 'timeline' anymore? I think we are supposed to assume yes; but everything got so tossed and screwy with Thanos being able to 'cross forward' into a universe that was not his; does that mean he no longer exists to carry out any infinity stone quest in that time line? how can that be? The reality of the universes got bent so much that it is too obscure to really get anything tangible out of it. And I think that if you go too far into trying to sort it out you inevitable be disappointed because the answer really is: The writers did not think about it that much. So any inconsistencies is just a result of them 'not thinking' about it when they wrote the scenes and dialogue.
reply
share
FilmBuff (7236)
4 years ago
In one sense, they did a better job than any film I've seen at setting a logical rule for time travel: anything you do that causes a change creates a split in the timeline.
If Thanos split the timeline when he brought Vision back to life, that means a timeline exists where Vision stays dead and Thanos doesn't get all the Infinity Stones. Yet, with the Time Stone, he isn't traveling in time as much as he's altering time itself, so I think that one makes sense. The Time Stone controls time itself, whereas traveling in time is something quite different, and altering time shouldn't cause a split timeline.
Yes, when Thanos travels through spacetime at the end of the film, and he and his entire army are dusted, that means in his original timeline he ceases to be. Since Thanos is traveling forward in time, from his own perspective, nothing he does creates a new branch on the timeline, but his death does preclude him from returning to his own time to wreak havoc. If anything, THAT'S the timeline in which the heroes were victorious, albeit through no action on their part. In that timeline, life goes on and no one ever learns about Thanos, no Snapture transpires, etc.
But then that begs the question-- shouldn't Dr. Strange have seen 2 timelines in which they won? Or-- did he identify that as a timeline in which his own group couldn't win? In other words, since he can't switch places with the Dr. Strange in the lucky timeline, he's only looking at what happens to him and his own timeline moving forward from that moment on Titan.
In any event, it all does seem to hold together, and nothing that happens in the film, at least nothing I noticed, breaks the rule set forth by the filmmakers, and that's a pretty remarkable thing to say about a time travel film.
reply
share
arflexit (2376)
4 years ago
That doesn't 'sit' well with me though from a story telling standpoint; it simply eliminates the 'stakes' and you might as well throw suspense out the window. The heroes and villians can never really fail; if they do they can just enter a different time loop. These means that by the time we even get to infinity war it is no longer the 'original' timeline; but one that split off the first time Dr. Strange started using the Time Stone; then you bring up a good point. He could only see 1 outcome in which they 'won' but they didn't really win; they created a new timeline. Can Dr. Strange even see the possible outcomes of different timelines? Unclear. The more you start to question this stuff the more it falls apart. It might have kept some 'internal' consistency to the film it which it was used; but it does not fit well with the rest of the serious; but the bigger problem is that it basically becomes a deus ex machina device that was called on to solve an unsolvable problem; and basically negated the tension.
Now that being said there was some 'loose' suspension left in Endgame by the fact only the OG Heroes were aware of the 'time travel' possibility. So if Thanos successfully killed them all, and removed that knowledge from use; that would be a 'final' victory for him. But the problem I had with Endgame Thanos is that he did not really rationalize out that goal; it wasn't his objective. It seemed like his objective was more petty revenge and anger at 'contenders'. this simplified objective mad him more brutish and less intimidating.
reply
share
FilmBuff (7236)
4 years ago
I don't completely follow your logic. What I think is the case, thought it's not 100% spelled out in the film, is that when someone uses the Time Stone they don't create a new timeline. A new timeline only happens when someone travels back in time, whereas using the Time Stone alters time itself. You aren't so much traveling in time as you are reversing time, so the things that happened un-happen. When the heroes use the Pym Particles to travel back, they are moving to a previous point on an existing timeline, which is why a change creates a new timeline; their future cannot be altered. If they used the Time Stone, they would undo their future, and time restarts wherever they go. But I'm totally making that up because it feels right.
In any event, I sort of see your point about the stakes being reduced, but I don't think I agree. They can fail quite easily, either by failing to accomplish what they went back to do, or dying trying.
Personally, I did not at all like the time travel element. I think it was done partly because it was an easy solution to the problem raised by the end of Infinity War, and mostly as fan service. Let's revisit all the classic moments in this final chapter of the saga. I didn't like that at all, and I didn't like the end, where all the heroes came back and the battle royale ensued. I wasn't at all impressed by Endgame, and was especially disappointed because Infinity War was so incredibly good. I wish they'd either chosen different heroes to have died at the end of Infinity War, and ended it there and just moved on to a new story, or ended Infinity War with something other than Thanos winning, and continuing the story in a second part. Having everyone die, five years pass, and the heroes time travel to undo it wasn't even a happy ending, and it felt messy and forced.
reply
share
arflexit (2376)
4 years ago
Yeah I think you and I took the same issue with Endgame (we were just explaining it different); the time travel felt like 'quick easy' solution to the impossible problem created by Infinity War's excellent ending in which so many of the heroes were snapped away (deus ex machina); so that felt a little cheap. Also the time travel solution sort of feels like they were actively trying to undo the last film's plot. So that is a little annoying; they were not moving forward with the story they were doing a retrospective and at the same time trying to undo the previous film which was one of the better films in the series; which also felt a little cheap.
reply
share