MovieChat Forums > Avengers: Infinity War (2018) Discussion > Marvel is just kiddy pop corn fluff they...

Marvel is just kiddy pop corn fluff they say...


Yet Infinity War had...takes breath..., slashed throats with audible spills of blood, stabbings, neck snappings, a stretching rack torture scene, fathers throwing their children off of cliffs, genocide, war, and a child crying after being suddenly forced to face his own death. And to top off this thickly brooding tone, the villain is sitting by a pristine sun drenched stretch of grass, to celebrate the fact he just murdered half of everyone.

No it isn't.

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It mostly is. But this, Civil War and Winter Soldier go on to show that the MCU can be more mature at times.

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Curiously enough, I did consider Civil War and Winter Soldier to be the best of the MCU. Now, Infinity Wars is the best one, imo.

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I rank the "top tier" of MCU movies currently is in this order:
1) Avengers: Infinity War - they really put all the cards on the table and truly shocked us
2) TIE - Captain America: Civil War, Captain America: Winter Soldier - two really good, involving movies with high stakes and the introduction of Spider-man into the MCU.
3) Iron Man - this will always be in the top list as there would be no MCU without this movie's big success
4) Guardians of the Galaxy - just a whiz-bang, FUN joyride of a movie!
5) Avengers - this movie showed Hollywood that super hero team-up movies can succeed in a BIG way.
6) TIE AGAIN - Black Panther and Thor: Ragnarok - the first elevated a lesser known but awesome superhero and showed the world Wakanda; the second saved the Thor trilogy and had the best villain of that trilogy.

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I was with you reached number 6!

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I'd love to throw Ant-Man in that mix, as it's a guilty pleasure. Great fun to watch but nowhere near the greatness of the top 6. Ditto the same for Spider-man: Homecoming. Too many good ones to choose from. I'll put those two in my second tier rankings!

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Yeah, Infinity War had that. The others didn't. Most of it is infact lightweight, popcorn, psychedelic slapstick pulp that panders to the lowest common denominator of cinema fans. I don't understand how Transformers can get as much heat as it does for being big empty spectacles with no heart and meanwhile we have an entire movie label dedicated to that junk that seems to get an endless amount of praise and reverence. These movies are literally no different than Bay-esque explosion-fests.

Let's not delude ourselves. You watch any Marvel MCU movie from Iron Man onward, and it's the exact same movie. Same plot, same jokes, same personality, same slapstick juvenile humor inbetween fights, same editing, same quirky scoring, same one liners, same formula, same everything. Just regurgitating the same thing over and over again. Then compare that to The Dark Knight, or Logan, or The Punisher, or Blade and see how much of a stark contrast there is in quality. It's night and day. None of these films take themselves seriously. They aren't even action movies anymore, they're comedies.

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"Then compare that to The Dark Knight, or Logan"


I love the MCU, but you can't beat those two movies, not with this formula. You have to be bolder and try something different.


This is the problem with Marvel, after the first Avengers, which was their first event movie, it kinda became stale. Pretty much every team-up movie after that was just a bigger event in scale.


The movies are well made and are a lot of fun, but it doesn't really change. That's why I liked Civil War so much, it tried to go in a different direction with a strong story supporting it. Infinity war on the other hand just felt like a very entertaining movie, but nonetheless more of the same in a bigger dosage.

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"Infinity war on the other hand just felt like a very entertaining movie, but nonetheless more of the same in a bigger dosage."

But it isn't, it very precisely, isn't. It doesn't adhere to the old as time classic three act structure, has no main character, focuses on its villain as the star, a GOOD villain for once, and ends the film with the heroes not only losing but the villain murdering half the universe including the most bankable stars, and tops it off with a tone that would make the Netflix Marvel characters feel right at home. Every building block of its foundation is far out of left field when it comes to the MCU.

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“I don't understand how Transformers can get as much heat as it does for being big empty spectacles with no heart and meanwhile we have an entire movie label dedicated to that junk that seems to get an endless amount of praise and reverence.”

I think it might be because they’re not the same at all.

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Right? You'd have to be among the "lowest common denominator of cinema fans" to not be able to see the difference between Transformers and even the weakest entry in the MCU.

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No. That's not it.

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Man, you're free to have your opinion. I understand that you like your comic book movies more serious in tone and darker. That's cool but remember that comic book stories appeal to a broad band of ages and people. The cinematic popcorn movie, sprinkled with some funny moments, has it's place and is more "golden age" comic book cannon that the later, more serious stories from the 90's graphic novel era.

I like both kinds but I can see how you'd think the tone of many of the Marvel movies is lighter than you'd prefer.

The Dark Knight trilogy is awesome and Logan is definitely the best of the X-Men movies.

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Goodness. You clearly watch these films through some ideological filter if you're really typing these words unironically. There's overblown, and than there's this fantasy. Where to start...

The MCU movies are like Transformers? Fascinating. Curious to ask why you think this. No really, I'm actually academically fascinated what's fostering this delusion. The explanation as to why these movies are universally praised is because they're good, and it's really that simple.

"Let's not delude ourselves..."

Excellent advice. Let's start at the beginning.

"You watch any Marvel MCU movie from Iron Man onward, and it's the exact same movie...."

Captain America - Earnest WW1 period piece on the world's first super-hero.
Incredible Hulk - Gritty and dour cat and mouse game between the military and a misunderstood monster.
Thor - Shakespearean styled tragedy on the scale of classic gods of myths about a man-child learning to grow up.
The Avengers - fun ensemble romp meets an alien invasion plot.
Iron Man 3 - Shane Black styled spy thriller about man losing his reliance on machines. Don't tell me the twist wasn't risky either.
Winter Soldier - Gritty political thriller about an underground Nazi uprising with kinetically directed and grounded action scenes.
Civil War - Super-hero political action drama about the proper use of power.
Black Panther - futuristic afro sci-fi about the benefits of altruism with a dose of racial commentary

No, they're not. All of these films have different themes, tones, character arcs, worlds, premises, visuals and action. Are there similar jokes and formulas? Sure. Comes with a shared universe franchise. But similar and identical do not equate.

Step deux coming soon...

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"The MCU movies are like Transformers? Fascinating. Curious to ask why you think this. No really, I'm actually academically fascinated what's fostering this delusion. The explanation as to why these movies are universally praised is because they're good, and it's really that simple."

I literally just told you why they're the same. In the very post that you replied to, I told you why they are the same. Because they're just as vapid, just as soulless, just as funny (that is to say not at all), just as flashy, just as empty, and just as juvenile. The same slapstick bro humor is found in both franchises. Both have big fights, and both have jokes inbetween said fights. And after fights, and before fights, and so on and so forth.

"No, they're not. All of these films have different themes, tones, character arcs, worlds, premises, visuals and action. Are there similar jokes and formulas? Sure. Comes with a shared universe franchise. But similar and identical do not equate. "

Yes. They are. You trying to prove how they're different by citing the plots doesn't mean that they don't follow the same formula, which was the entire fabric of my post. Way to have it go over your head junior. You win a gold star for being the most oblivious poster on the board. Congratulations. You think all of these films are different and don't follow the same formula because they have different characters. That's adorable.

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Well... One difference is Michael Bay's paralex-inducing, constantly-moving, fill-the-frame-with-huge-scale, every-shot-is-epic visual style...

But that's a visual flourish that is superior in Transformers than almost anything in Marvel, so if anything it makes it stranger that people hold marvel in higher esteem...

One can imagine a Bay directed avengers/marvel movie would be more visually grand than any of the ones we've seen to date... If no less inane, vapid and formulaic...

I think the reason people prefer marvel is a soap opera-esque attachment to the characters... This is both a legacy of the comicbook attachment as well as the serialised and episodic nature of this marvel 'movie' series... 'Tune in next episode to see what happens to XYZ', etc... Yet like any episode of 24, the Bold & The Beautiful or a Spanish telenovella, it is just the same inane forumula with the sole purpose to get you to want the next episode...

In this sense, it is probably a departure from Transformers as the latter didn't manage to capture the compulsive nature of watching a TV series and relied on the simple and clear attraction of "bigger and more of it"... So Marvel simply takes that a step further...

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That's EXACTLY what I'm talking about. People pick on Bay all the time for making his movies mundane, flashy, empty, and fluffy without any substance. And yet the exact same formula when present in the MCU somehow gets completely ignored. The MCU suffers from Bay syndrome, without any of the spectacle to make up for it. They're not proper adaptations of these comic book characters, they're just comedies centered around them. I don't remember any of these characters being as goofy or ridiculous when I grew up reading them. Except for Deadpool maybe. I think Deadpool nails the mark. The rest are just terribly goofy, childish, man-children.

I think you make a great point with the episodic cliffhanger endings of these movies. That's quite literally what they feel like. Half hour episodes of your favorite cartoon stretched out to two hours in length. Marvel fans love these movies because they feel they should.

What I don't understand however, is how they feel this legacy attachment to these characters and then think they need to like the films as a result. We never saw this same dedication to love every movie adaptation of previous comic book movies. The Punisher had it's criticisms, Tim Burton's Batman for making the Joker the one to kill Bruce's parents did not go unnoticed, and of course, "nipple armor". Comic book fans seemed to be a lot more critical and harder to please when I was growing up than they do now. Where all it takes to pull them in is your favorite character jamming to Beyonce, and making bro jokes inbetween fights.

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"Then compare that to The Dark Knight, or Logan, or The Punisher, or Blade and see how much of a stark contrast there is in quality. It's night and day. None of these films take themselves seriously. They aren't even action movies anymore, they're comedies."

Sure. Winter Soldier, Civil War, and Black Panther are very clearly better than all of those. The Punisher, assuming you're not talking about the MCU-Netflix one, is a dumb eighties action film made twenty years too late. It's funny you brought up a movie that's clearly comparable to Michael Bay movies in quality. Your warped perception of reality is really starting to fascinate me.

Secondly, you're penultimate argument is not only confusing, but ill informed. Your inital blunt of the complaint is that these movies feel the same, and you end off by saying they should all be the same in a different way. And are you saying that a film needs to be serious to be a quality product. Quality is one tone fits all? Even if it were true that all Marvel films are tone light comedies that never take themselves s2eriously, which is patently false anyways, are you really unironically saying they're bad simply because they're A and I want B? Take your time, look at light-hearted classics, and come back and look at that statement hard.

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"Sure. Winter Soldier, Civil War, and Black Panther are very clearly better than all of those. The Punisher, assuming you're not talking about the MCU-Netflix one, is a dumb eighties action film made twenty years too late. It's funny you brought up a movie that's clearly comparable to Michael Bay movies in quality. Your warped perception of reality is really starting to fascinate me."

From the sounds of it, anything can fascinate you so pardon me if I don't feel accomplished.

"Secondly, you're penultimate argument is not only confusing, but ill informed. Your inital blunt of the complaint is that these movies feel the same, and you end off by saying they should all be the same in a different way. And are you saying that a film needs to be serious to be a quality product. Quality is one tone fits all? Even if it were true that all Marvel films are tone light comedies that never take themselves s2eriously, which is patently false anyways, are you really unironically saying they're bad simply because they're A and I want B? Take your time, look at light-hearted classics, and come back and look at that statement hard."

No. I'm saying they're bad because they're bad. Not because I don't like them. I just also happen to not like them because they're bad. Transformers is bad because it's empty. The MCU is also bad because it's empty. And you can argue about Winter Soldier or Civil War sure, but the focus here is that the MCU as a whole, is downright garbage. Complete and utter dreck. Easy to please eye candy with kiddie fodder jokes. We aren't talking about the needles in the haystack. Watching the Avengers all chowing down on Shwarma, or the Asian monk dude in Doctor Strange jamming to Beyonce, is just as vapid and childish as Batman's nipple armor in Batman and Robin. I'm sorry you've deluded yourself into thinking these are great masterpieces of cinema. Truly. Even the Netflix shows on a shoestring budget are better than anything the MCU put out on an endless one.

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Wow, Marvel Studios must have some incredible secret that enables them to make all these "tone light comedies that never take themselves seriously" that generate 15 BILLION DOLLARS over the course of 10 years!

I think it's called GOOD STORYTELLING. In this regard, the Transformer movies can't compare. Any studio can throw out a big budget for CGI. It takes competent writers who understand the characters and their histories to make comic book movies successful. All the CGI and actor casting in the world can't save a movie with a bad story.
It always gets me laughing, when a person who prefers the "dark and gritty" DCEU movies starts attacking the MCU, sayings that it's "kiddy stuff" and that people don't get the more "edgier" and "adult" tone of the DCEU. Why it's funny is that we do get it and the DCEU is crap because their storytelling sucks.

But please, by all means, let them mock the MCU. They will mock and the MCU will just keep putting out blockbuster comic book movies.

Note - for the record, I love DC comics but what Warner Bros has done to these golden age comic characters is an affront. At least Marvel cares about their final product!

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Just for the record, me criticizing the MCU doesn't mean I'm defending the DCEU. I've praised both The Dark Knight and Logan. Both of which are not part of either Marvel's or DC's movie labels. Both movie labels suck ass equally.

Infact I would even say that the formulaic personality of Marvel's MCU movies, as much as I hate them and think they pander to kids and man-children, at least maintain a consistency not seen in the DC universe. Where one movie can be dark and edgy, while the next can be quirky and stupid. So I'll give them that at least.

Of course this also leads to a larger disparity between quality where movies like Wonder Woman turn out to be among the best comic book adaptations, where as others like Suicide Squad turn out to be the worst. Marvel rather just maintains nice happy balance of repetitive mediocrity between the two.

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Well I will say that you are balanced in you criticism. I'll give you that much. What are your opinions of the FOX movies? You obviously liked Logan (damn good movie) but what about the other X-Men movies? I'd like to know your thoughts on the original and most recent trilogies.

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I haven't seen the most recent trilogies. I saw the original trilogy, First Class, and both previous Wolverine movies before Logan. All three original X-Men films were average. Nothing special. First Class is probably the best one that I've seen out of the four X-Men films and I think it really accentuated the tragedy of Magneto, but I can't speak for the more recent ones that came out.

Both prior Wolverine films however were garbage.

Oddly enough I liked Deadpool despite it using the same humor I criticized the MCU for, but that's because it fit the character. That's just how Deadpool is, so I'm a little more forgiving in his case.

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Deadpool rocks! Ryan Reynolds was born to play that character.

I actually liked the first X-Men trilogy and I thought the third movie, X-Men: Final Stand, was unfairly panned.
Something about the newer X-Men movies (First Class, Days of Future Past, Apocalypse) never appealed to me. I didn't get invested personally in the characters like I did with the previous trilogy.

Oh yeah, I thought Alan Cummings gave us a great Night Crawler in X2. A shame he never made that appearance again. Kelsey Grammer was a joy as Beast too.

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I concur...

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Winter Soldier still remains the grittiest. I'd even say that scene where Cap, Widow and Winter Soldier are facing off for the first time is some of the best action put on screen.

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Guardians 1: Ronan straight up smashes a dude at the start of that movie. I think Guardians is very light hearted but smashing a bound man with a blunt axe/hammer thing is hard core.

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Pro tip: Oh geez, do NOT read that topic title too quickly! That's all I will say.

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My five year old niece found it "scary", especially Thor's look for some reason, although she was bored by the movie towards the end and wanted to leave the cinema... 😉

The 10 year old nephew thought it was more fun than the previous one, but that's not difficult as he fell asleep during that episode... 😎

The teenagers thought it was "cool"... So perhaps with the spectacle marvel is approaching a pre-adolescent appeal, but then again these kids have only just started to watch horror movies this year and haven't seen many thriller or dramas... They didn't "get" Dunkirk when they saw it last year and thought it was "just a battle" 😁...

So yes, it's still kids oriented, although they've pushed the violence a bit... It's not like we're talking about 1980s Robocop (if we're going to stick with the superhero theme)... 😉

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Oh please, everyone knows that Marvel Comic deaths aren't permanent. Especially when sequels for half the characters who just died are still in production.

But that raises a question - do the DC fans love the ending of this movie? It seems just to their taste, being violent, humorless, and depressing.

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I didn't find the ending depressing as much as I found it sentimentally sad.

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Yes it is, apart from Winter Soldier, Civil War and Infinity War. These three IMO are the best MCU films

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The demographic is families with children. The toy sales speak for itself.

Nothing wrong with that of course.

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