You are way too forgiving ;)
“Human vs Apes [duh]”
* No duh, imo. The Apes never retaliate the humans. The humans have but one attack, and then a sneak attack to kill his son, because?? The Apes never attack back. In fact, the Apes then leaves the area (or try to). Even when they escape their shackles in the end, they simply just try to leave unnoticed amid that other conflict happening... It takes two to tango. Was it war? Conflict indeed, but War?
Even the movie posters (and trailers) are eluding from what the story actually is… I mean, stop reading this for a moment and take a look at the epic poster….. I will wait :) Okay, am I right? This poster just screams epic conflict and war between man and beast…. Two forces attack one another, may the best Ape win… the poster is sadly lying. Or rather; if it would delete the apes on the Poster it is sort of true. Seriously. We have that exact scene in the movie, but without the Apes. Instead of the apes there are humans in that same spot... WTF. And this is my biggest biff. That is cheating us. The true conflict of this movie is a conflict between humans. And even this conflict we are never really told much about.
Instead of being told a tale of Apes and the last of Man, we are told a story about a stir-crazy colonel who eventually is taken down by the virus… If Caesar or not, Apes would win…. This is essentially the lesson. You see, when we meet Bad Ape, we learn then that other apes from other places also have gained intelligence (which is the first time we learn this btw)…. And this then at the same time tells us that whatever happened here is essentially irrelevant to Planet of the Apes. It would happen with or without Caesar and friends. That is not epic, that is not a War? Well, one may argue that IF the avalanche had not wiped out that army in the end, humans might very well have re-conjured the world as this army seemed superior in every way…. but then what this is telling us is that ONE AVALANCHE is guilty of wiping out the human race???? War for The Plane of the Aalanche is more fitting…
Human vs. Ape, or was it Human vs. inevitability (read in Agent Smith accent)?
“Human vs Virus [as depicted with the killing of the infected]”.
* Again, the conflict just brushed at this and imo not really flushed out. Yes, this was a threat and the underlying reason for the conflict within the humans, but only ever tertiary to the story we see. I saw no war.
"Human vs Human [as depicted with the invasion in the last segment]"
* This was the only thing that to me smelled of epic war. Alas, the movie makers chose not to really tell us much about this story. What a shame.
“Ape vs Ape [as depicted with Caeser's apes vs the ones who followed Koba and the ones who work for humans just to save themselves]”
* Fair point, but in truth this is what the second movie was about and so in reality what we saw here was just the remaining effect of what happened then. I would say, that war was over.
“The main theme is survival and predominance in the War.”
* Dude, you are too forgiving. The Apes already had survived and did fine, the humans were actually doing okay too. The conflict was in actuality a virus slowly creeping in on humans and causing conflicts and their war in between them. A story I would love to have been told more about. I would rather say, that the theme for the Planet of the Apes was dumb luck.
“Overall the movie is about finding a new way of existing; which ends well for the Apes, but not well for the Humans; and not about "forced labor" or any lesser circumstances. For the same degree you'd say it's about Infanticide because there are depictions of such in the movie [example: the death of Caesar's son] or about Winter because there's snow everywhere.”
* What new way?
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TwistedAcrobat (1725)
7 years ago
"You are way too forgiving ;)"
Well, the movie does have some issues that become more apparent, the more you think about it [some you addressed your self]. But for other things it did quite well [and the visual fxs for the apes were pretty damn good. Loved the expressions on the face of the old chimp, the snow affecting the hair on their bodies and the blood vessels in Caesar's right eye].
"No duh, imo. The Apes never retaliate the humans (...) Conflict indeed, but War?"
I understand your point of view, but even if we forget for a moment that this is a follow up to Koba's open declaration of hatred against the Humans and all the violence in the previous movie, the Humans still are raging war against the Apes. In this movie it happens with both Woodie's soldiers [that ends up being more of a general kidnapping for forced work]; the soldiers that invade Woodie's camp where Caesar is pointed a gun by one of those soldiers [they all turn to him pretty much before the avalanche] and Nova's father [even if he was protecting Nova] signifying that no matter which side of Humanity you look at, Apes are to be killed. That means it's an open War for extermination. Caesar deciding not to go out and kill humans doesn't mean the apes aren't warring. War also entails retreating and surviving.
"Even the movie posters (and trailers) are eluding from what the story actually is… I mean, stop reading this for a moment and take a look at the epic poster….. I will wait :) Okay, am I right? This poster just screams epic conflict and war between man and beast…. Two forces attack one another, may the best Ape win… the poster is sadly lying (...)"
The only poster I saw was in the Theaters entrance and is one with Nova on Caesar's back. As a rule I don't look at posters for movie content. I sadly did that mistake before deciding on watching a movie a few times and still want my money back. :'(
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HAL 9010 (906)
7 years ago
My first sentiment when I left the cinema darkness was also quite impressed. The production value is high, and never done better. But the more I thought about it, the more disappointed I became. I made this tread where I list some of the bigger flaws in the story line:
https://moviechat.org/tt3450958/War-for-the-Planet-of-the-Apes/598ad155367ca60011084df5/dumb-shit-in-the-script
I am not dissing the movie totally, and I agree in your points above. They have merits and I surely twist it in the worst way to prove my point.... but fundamentally the movie did just not deliver what I had hoped and what I expected after seeing the trailers and the poster. The poster I speak of is this:
http://beartooththeatre.net/wp-content/uploads/iktgb7ef3vxy.jpg
But you are right, one should go with an open mind and try not to get too much of the pre-marketing beforehand. In this case, It think it largely harmed my experience. Not only because of the title and dishonest marketing, but also in respect to the fact that this was the conclusion of the trilogy before the original (at least to me it was). I was hoping to see a much stronger connection to the first one for example, I was hoping to see the epic fall of man etc etc... anyway, we all measure what we see to what we expect. And I was dishearten, and I also think the movie could have benefited from bit of scrutiny on the script before first day of shooting.
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TwistedAcrobat (1725)
7 years ago
DAYUM! That poster DOES suggest a bloodshed. I understand your sentiment.
One of the movies I fell for the "poster trap" was with "hotel" [a shitfest with a lot of known actors]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hotel_%282001_film%29#/media/File:Hotel_FilmPoster.jpeg
Gawd that thing was atrocious [please stay away from it]. Lesson learned, though.
I agree fully with all your complaints about the movie [with the exception of the definition of "war" itself] and many of those made me roll my eyes when I saw the movie [the idiot guard that locks himself inside with the monkeys was particularly infuriating]
Still, a worse example of screenwriting and dumb shit happening for no sane reason whatsoever, you can find in both Prometheus and Alien Covenant. There's simply no redemption for that level of stupid.
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TwistedAcrobat (1725)
7 years ago
"Instead of being told a tale of Apes and the last of Man, we are told a story about a stir-crazy colonel who eventually is taken down by the virus (...) Human vs. Ape, or was it Human vs. inevitability (read in Agent Smith accent)? "
Sadly that's one of those things that weren't explored in the movie. We get to see the killing of infected and whatnot, but we are left to our own imagination with what could be or could have been. I'm pretty satisfied with the way it was handled though. The infected wouldn't give much of a resistance in the short run given they'd devolve into a primitive state [nice sagwaying into the original movie btw].
""Human vs Human [as depicted with the invasion in the last segment]"
* This was the only thing that to me smelled of epic war. Alas, the movie makers chose not to really tell us much about this story. What a shame."
The good side of it was when the "good soldier" turned to shoot Caesar. No need to see the other side's perspective in length. We get to see their perspective with that one action.
"* What new way?"
Caesar on his hatred journey discovered his forgiveness via Nova [also implied when Woody lost his speech]. Damn fine moment. But - if the franchise decides to follow on the original's motif - we already know how it will end for Humanity. The Apes will make humans their pets and slaves.
I'm guessing that if it is decided not to follow the original's motif, then the Apes will live fine with the infected [Nova being the example].
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HAL 9010 (906)
7 years ago
"Sadly that's one of those things that weren't explored in the movie. We get to see the killing of infected and whatnot, but we are left to our own imagination with what could be or could have been. I'm pretty satisfied with the way it was handled though. The infected wouldn't give much of a resistance in the short run given they'd devolve into a primitive state [nice sagwaying into the original movie btw]."
* this imo should have been the predominant part of the story. In Dawn we already got the "War" story and this War chapter seemed in some ways the same tangent and so brought us little new (if compared to Dawn, I dare say). They should instead, imo, have focused much more on the virus thing and the fall of man because of it... how? I do not know but this part of the story I would have liked more...
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TwistedAcrobat (1725)
7 years ago
Yeah, the virus thing could have it's own movie for sure.
Did you enjoy the scene when Woody looses his speech and "asks" Caesar to kill him? I could see it coming a mile away, but the crescendo of the ape's rage and his realization that the man was already getting what he feared the most, made it for me. Could have been better of course.
Whoever made the decision to make Woody and Caesar have a sort of similar motif that you find in the last segment of Apocalypse Now between the Colonel and the Captain didn't have a lot of imagination, though it was well done.
Ape-pocalypse Now on the sewer made me chuckle.
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HAL 9010 (906)
7 years ago
Great concept for sure. But the moment from Woody being his normal crazy self to him being a confused fool, was too quick for my taste. I would have had this decline in intelligence and speech etc. creep in much earlier and in slower steps, evident to most except Woody self for example... the 180 change they made here was a let down to me and just too incredible.
Plus perhaps I would have liked it more if Caesar had turned his back instead and left him to his own nightmare og being incapable... like for example him not even knowing how to handle his gun.... he was after all on hell of a sob and the murder of his son, so leave him to his own doom would have been more powerful.... perhaps?
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TwistedAcrobat (1725)
7 years ago
"like for example him not even knowing how to handle his gun.... he was after all on hell of a sob and the murder of his son, so leave him to his own doom would have been more powerful.... perhaps?"
That would be gold. Good imagery there.
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