MovieChat Forums > Soaked in Bleach (2015) Discussion > Gun Placement / Cadaveric Spasm

Gun Placement / Cadaveric Spasm

posted 9 years ago by NYultra
25 replies | jump to latest

This is one one glaring forensic inconsistency with the suicide angle.

It just seems set up how the gun is found in the center of his body with his left hand around the barrel. This, to me, shows that the gun was actually placed on his body in that position. With the kickback of the gun at such close range there is more of a probability that the gun would have fell next to the body, maybe partially on the floor and not perfectly centered on his body.

The medical examiner said the he had a cadaveric spasm, which is is why he hand was clenched around the gun barrel. His right hand, which allegedly pulled the trigger was laying on the floor a distance from his body.

The problem with that is the fact that the cadaveric spasm would also effect his right hand, making it found contorted in the position his arm, hand and fingers would have been when the trigger was pulled (if not gripping the gun). In other words, he would be found frozen at the moment of death. His arm wouldn't be laying straight next to his body if he was the one that pulled the trigger.

Obviously, this indicates that he did not pull the trigger when he died. It leaves open the possibility that someone placed his hand over the barrel while he was incapacitated, stood over his body and pulled the trigger. Then, place the gun back down on the center of his body explaining why his right hand was laying next to his body in the position Kurt was at moment of his murder.

Info on cadaveric spasms:

http://www.forensicpathologyonline.com/e-book/post-mortem-changes/muscular-changes

This message board has a photo of a cadaveric spasm of a suicide from a self inflicted shotgun wound, same has Kurt allegedly shot himself. Warning it's graphic, but we are talking about a violent death and how the body reacts. I think the photo should loosely show context of how Kurt arms would have been. Sorry in advance, but trying to prove a point.

http://www.documentingreality.com/forum/f10/cadaveric-spasm-124789/

[–] bruiser-t-cat 9 years ago

Where are you getting the info about the right hand and where it was found? I can't remember myself from the police report and I'm having trouble finding it.

[–] BingoFlip20943 9 years ago

You can see pics of his right arm when he's still laying in the greenhouse, it's argued that the hand actually is clenched in a fist. I'd be interested to know if his hand was pried open to put the rifle barrel in after.

[–] April221968 9 years ago

That's my take, an obvious set up job. Overkill.

[–] bruiser-t-cat 9 years ago

??? Any news?....

[–] NYultra 9 years ago

When you look at the photograph through the window you can see the shotgun between his legs with his right arm on the floor.

https://ainhoaaristizabal.files.wordpress.com/2014/04/kurt-cobain-e1396621300826.jpg

That picture was obviously taken very soon after the body was found as you can see the police officer crouching and writing notes. I can't find anywhere it being said any otherwise than that. The police report mentions only his left hand gripping the gun.

[–] bruiser-t-cat 9 years ago

I see.

[–] NYultra 9 years ago

What do you see?

[–] bruiser-t-cat 9 years ago

I just being facetious. Your claim is based on the photo that was circulated which doesn't really prove anything since we never saw him with the gun in his hand.

[–] NYultra 9 years ago

Of course you were. Its based on the police report and a photo of the body at the actual scene showing the gun still in place. The rest of your post makes no sense. Are you talking about his left hand that was around the barrel?

[–] bruiser-t-cat 9 years ago

Do you know of a site that still has the police reports? I wish I had kept a copy of them from the Justice for Kurt site.

My comment about the photo is that the one that was circulated does not show Kurt holding the gun. At least it doesn't look like he is holidng it to me.

[–] bruiser-t-cat 9 years ago

Apologies, I just looked at the photo on a PC and I can see what you are talking about now. It looks like the butt of the gun between his legs. I never noticed that before because I was looking at pretty bad photos.

[–] NYultra 9 years ago

Not a problem.

[–] Philippe_K_Bortrand 9 years ago

Is it known where he aimed the shotgun? I assume it is... was it in his mouth?

[–] NYultra 9 years ago

It wasn't found in his mouth. As far a everything ive read, it was found at the center of his chest. In the photo you can see where the bottom of the gun is, so you can use the length of the gun to determine where the barrel would be.

This diagram demonstrates how its believed his body was positioned when found.

http://cobainevidence.com/crime-scene/

[–] bruiser-t-cat 9 years ago

He aimed into his mouth I believe. At least the damage was inside the mouth. I don't have the police reports anymore as the site that had them, justiceforkurt.com has been removed.

[–] Philippe_K_Bortrand 9 years ago

Yeah, I'm just curious if he was aiming in his mouth, at his forehead, under his chin...etc. I'm a fan of Forensic Files...I'm no expert but I know these sort of minute details make a difference.

[–] NYultra 9 years ago

Philippe, here's an interesting forensic related thing to note:

On the death certificate, the medical examiner stated there was a perforated gunshot wound. This means there is an exit wound out the other side of where the gunshot was fired. This is entirely inaccurate. It was actually a penetrating gunshot wound, meaning the shotgun pellets were wedged into his hard pallet on top of his mouth causing internal trauma with relatively minimal bleeding outside of his left ear. Consider he was laying there to bleed out for at least three days before being found. One could speculate that he would have already been dead when the gunshot went off explaining the lack of significant bleeding.

There was no splatter and no exit wound. His head wasn't "blown off" as most people think. His face, although showing obvious trauma from the blast, was intact and identifiable. He was not only identified by his fingerprints, as Courtney falsely purported to MTV and the media.

Unfortunately, the body was cremated before any substantive forensic investigation could be done. The glaring inaccuracy of saying there was a perforated gunshot wound indicated that the medical examiner did not do a thorough job examining the body. You can determine if he was overdosing at the time of his death, by seeing how much his fluid were in his lungs. Among other things, they can determine his condition at the moment of death.

[–] BingoFlip20943 9 years ago

Wait, why the f is justiceforkurt.com gone now?

[–] NYultra 9 years ago

I read somewhere that whoever owns it didn't renew it for 2016.

Click here

http://web.archive.org/web/20141102081138/http://www.justiceforkurt.com/

If that doesn't work, find it on the wayback machine

http://archive.org/web/

[–] medfoto8472-554-15498 9 years ago

I'm not an expert but I was a forensic photographer in the Navy and worked with the NCIS and the San Diego PD.

As soon as the heart stops beating, blood stops flowing and starts to settle in the lowest part of the body and coagulate. Livor Mortis.

What position was he in when he was shot? Blood spatter would have determined that but I never heard anyone state his position.

What about the paper bag with what looked to me as a box of shotgun shells in it sitting right next to the bottom of his left foot?

As for the position of the body, sometimes they move while their dying or if they're standing, they fall.

The ejected shell casing that was found on his left side could have technically hit his right forearm and bounced if the gun was in fact fired in the upside down position.

The cops screwed the pooch big time on this one and it needs to be re-opened.

[–] NYultra 9 years ago

I'm not an expert but I was a forensic photographer in the Navy and worked with the NCIS and the San Diego PD.

That's really impressive and thanks for your input. I'm sure you've seen your fair share of disturbing scenes. Maybe you can add some experience at the death scene perspective.

As soon as the heart stops beating, blood stops flowing and starts to settle in the lowest part of the body and coagulate. Livor Mortis.

What if a person is unconscious from an overdose? I do know that a heroine overdose causes your blood pressure to drop. That might explain the lack of a substantive bleeding from his ear?

What position was he in when he was shot? Blood spatter would have determined that but I never heard anyone state his position.

I think that the SPD's view is that he was sitting. I've never read anything about any splatter, just leakage from his left ear. According to the Paramedic on the scene:

“I was a bit surprised, normally a shotgun wound to the head, the ones I’ve seen, are pretty devastating, often making facial features unrecognizable. His head was not grossly deformed or badly damaged."

What about the paper bag with what looked to me as a box of shotgun shells in it sitting right next to the bottom of his left foot?

Either he loaded it with three shells when he decided to kill himself, which little sense when you need just one, or it was already loaded with three shells for protection and the bag was planted there.

As for the position of the body, sometimes they move while their dying or if they're standing, they fall.

I don't think anyone disputes that he was in the "suicide position" but

The ejected shell casing that was found on his left side could have technically hit his right forearm and bounced if the gun was in fact fired in the upside down position.

I've thought of that myself, but it seems implausible consider that the ejection port near the top of the gun and trajectory of the spent shell.

The SPD's official view is that the gun pivoted in Kurt's hand when it went off. Even though they also say he had a cadaveric spasm. This and the butt of the gun was found balanced on it's tip. The gun could still have been placed in his hand and shot by someone else.

The cops screwed the pooch big time on this one and it needs to be re-opened.

I agree and when people like Cyril Wecht and Vernon Geberth are also saying it, it should be taken seriously. That's only the forensic aspect. Then I look at the rest of the backstory and I totally think this needs another look.

[–] Akira-Takahashi 9 years ago

It definitely needs reopened.

[–] GhostXXX 9 years ago

I find it weird that he was holding the gun with his left hand and his right hand was not only beside the body but closed in a fist and you can see in the photo that is taken outside the greenhouse by the press. There is no way his right hand would be in that position if he pulled the trigger.

[–] bruiser-t-cat 9 years ago

Why? What position would it be in?

[–] bruiser-t-cat 9 years ago

Where does it mention cavaderic spasm in the reports?