Why did Kim just leave in the middle of dell proposing??? He said she was his love, named all the things he adored about her and then she splits acting all pissy... Did I miss something???
shareHe said that the thing that he loved the most about her was that she liked him. That's not about her- he's making it about him again. He was still very self involved.
That was my interpretation at least.
As funngurl said, he made the conversation about him again. He also switched from "love" to "like", but I don't know if that meant anything.
shareHe was talking about all the things he loved about her, but when it came to HER personally he said that he LIKED her because she liked him.. first, he made it about him again and second he said he liked her, not love. At least that's the way I saw it:)
shareThis part weighed heavily on me. I have a lot to say, lol noone will probably read all this but:
He was saying the right things, just really beautifully telling her why he loved her. Women need to hear the small things you love about us. What he was saying is literally what every woman in the world needs and wants to hear and know that the guy we love loves us for who we are no matter what, and loves the smallest things about us that noone else probably even notices. But then he completely ruined it, when he said "But what I like most is that you like me as much as I like you. That says a lot about someone's character."
Now, there's A LOT going on there. To her, that was basically saying, you are amazing, but the best thing about you is that you like me. And when he said that says a lot about someone's character---to her he is sounding like a complete narcissist. That can translate into, "If someone likes ME as much as I like them or like myself, they know what's up. Because I am the best thing since sliced bread."
He may have not meant it that way. Sometimes guys word things horribly. My guess is that while he DID bring the word back from love to like, showing he ultimately is incapable of LOVE because he subconsciously even in that moment of romance and pouring his heart out ended using the word like, which isn't good--which she did notice---he may have meant "Liking me as much as I like you shows a lot about someone's character" he may have meant "I am so analytical, and guarded, can be obnoxious and self righteous etc etc, so for you to PUT UP WITH ALL MY CRAP and actually like me, (showing huge insecurities) says a lot about you and our relationship" Now if that is what he meant which is what I think---even though he had some characteristics of a narcissist, he wasn't one completely. He was scared about being late to the wedding, he cared what people thought about him, and was extremely afraid of losing her, which shows insecurity and that is not a narcissist.
So, ultimately it makes sense, if I were her I would have gotten pissed off and walked away as well seeing everything he said in that last part was the opposite of what she wanted to hear. He brought it back to "like" he brought it back to it being about HIM, and not her or them. She knew in that moment all her worst fears about him and commitment and everything being about him and on his terms was definitely valid.
I didn't like him very much as a character but in that moment I did feel bad for him because I think he worded that last part incorrectly, and definitely is incapable of true love and trust. And that is just who he is. But that was his way of telling her he didn't want anyone else even if he couldn't express it the way she did. But for her it wasn't enough and I get that.
Noone wants to be in a relationship with someone who likes the fact that their partner loves them or likes him as much as they like/love us, and that being the thing he "likes" the most. That is the worst thing to "like" the most. The thing he should "love" the most are those small sweet things he was saying he "loved" (in his own way) which I think from him is infatuation and admiration and addiction, and the biggest thing he should "love" is what they bring out in each other and how she makes him feel from her being HER, not because she likes him back.
I don't know why this pulls me so much---but it was just so blatant. It was the perfect example and was very well written of what never to say to a woman, especially while proposing marriage, and something you should strive the opposite for when it comes to love. If you can't strive for the opposite of that or end up being able to LOVE and love everything more than the fact that they like or love you back (that's something that should just be known as a given at the beginning of your relationship) then you are not capable of having a solid, healthy, romantic loving equal relationship.
LoversLaneXO^
I *did* read your entire post (beautifully written by the way).
I think what you wrote was what the director intended to show, although you added some great extra analysis that I think the director didn't even think of.
Bravo!
However, I feel that her reaction was rather immature and could actually show how somewhat selfish she in fact was...
I *get* that we women need to be told certain things & that little things matter. I've been there.
But I also think that women (myself included) can be rough on guys in this way, at times.
*If* she really loved him (which I doubt...or at least not as much as he loved her):
Couldn't she have paid enough attention to the entire context...what he said before (his outpouring of love)...his romantic posture...to have not allowed a clumsy remark that could have been made out of sheer nervousness, to have ruined everything? I think so.
She would accuse him at times of being too analytical. Could she have tried not to over-analyze that comment...to give it so much weight...and instead filtered it as some imperfect remark made by an imperfect human being (as we all are)? I think so.
Could she have taken a breath and given him a chance to 'clean up' that remark? I think so.
And, even if she truly felt angry at what he said and even if we say she is justified in that anger...she wanted a committed long-term relationship. Well, along with that comes these awkward times, these misplaced remarks, these 'imperfections'...why not just get angry and explain to him that what he said made her angry and why...get it out in the open, deal with it and move on and not expect him to be some forever white knight on a horse, always the one to chase after her, and allow him to be an imperfect human being who doesn't always say the right thing...and *this* is where I think her immaturity shows through...that she couldn't do that.
As much as we might wish them to be, guys aren't mindreaders. Many aren't good at being intuitive. And, if you watch his character closely, he is more intuitive at times, than most.
"...{we women} want to hear and know that the guy we love loves us for who we are no matter what"
We should return that favor.
Anyway...just my two cents!
"Shake your hair girl with your ponytail"
I definitely agree with that.
I think that she was very selfish and self involved as well in her own ways. I think she was better at communicating and showing her love---and there are the languages of love. And they had very different languages of love.
I am still on the fence on if he was capable of the true depth of real love, however I do think he loved her in his own way.
I think she was capable of love, but was just as insecure as he was as a person, and expected a lot from him (without ever putting herself in his shoes) and being the kind if impulsive immature person, to walk away in a huff of emotion than communicate. She could communicate her love-------but the second something happened that upset her, she could not sit through it and communicate what was wrong. She implied a lot of things and said what she wanted, but he is the kind of person who, yes is intuitive for someone so self involved and analytical, so she should have been more raw..and honest...and broken it down with him. He definitely needed that and then would have understood as he is a very smart individual.
Both of them were definitely flawed, and impatient. Possibly not the best match. I do think if she had been less emotionally impulsive and immature, and was more patient, he could have learned a lot from her and they may have done better. But... I think the problem there was his way of showing love (to her it was more lack thereof) continued to grate on her. She was always needing something from him that he wasn't providing. Hence, why she was "falling out of love with him" but still couldn't leave, because she was waiting for it. I have been in such a similar situation. And also acted that way towards the end. But I think I was very communicative and patient and told him exactly what was on my mind, what I needed, what hurt me, etc. And eventually realized, we just aren't meant to be.
In that moment I think she was so at that point of insecurity, frustration, lack of trust and feeling safe with him, feeling like she loved him more, even though he couldn't really show it as much and definitely communicate it as well. His reservations about love, commitment and relationships scared her a lot, so it's like in that proposal she just wanted to hear what would sound "right"
But I do agree. I think ok, if she needed to walk away to cool down and gather her thoughts and be pissed then fine. But then go back and tell him what hurt you--and see what he has to say. It was a marriage proposal. That isn't something to be taken lightly. But she is a "now" person not a "5 mins from now" So in that moment, he didn't say the right thing. So in that moment, she was done.
But my interpretation from all that happened is that they do end up together because they both grew into better people, so it's all good anyway haha.
LoversLaneXO^
Wow! Excellent post!
I really can't add much to your points; again, you have done such an awesome analysis.
After reading and then responding to your post last night, I thought again about that scene.
And, as I thought more about it, I realized how cleverly it was done.
When I stepped back from 'the incident' and Dell's remark that set Kim off so much at the end of the scene and where the director was guiding me as a viewer, I realized what a horrible set-up the situation was for Dell, and that was something I didn't focus on as much before.
First, if we are to believe what he says in the scene (and Kim doesn't disagree with this, so I assume we are safe in the belief), she had set him up to be some kind of 'cop' -- to monitor her to make sure they weren't late to *her* friend's wedding -- a wedding they had obviously put a lot of effort in to going to (taking off of work; traveling to Paris, etc.)
Then it appeared she did a lot to actively sabotage that, putting him in a fairly lose-lose situation from the get go.
There are her remarks: the crack about sexual fantasy disappearing after they 'did it'; telling him she is falling out of love with him; when he says 'Wow'(not literally, but words to that effect ;) and is obviously stunned at how good she looks in the dress, her response is 'you're so easily amused' (words to that effect -- and I grant you -- maybe it is her insecurity that she doesn't take a compliment well or doesn't trust it)...even about her wanting to have a baby -- it wasn't 'I want to have *our* baby' or 'I want to have a baby *with you*' (if I remember correctly)...it was 'I want to have a baby'...I may be appearing 'picky' here, but I think it illustrates how *she* can go along making remarks that, if the shoe were on the other foot, she might not have been able to handle, at least by that point in their relationship, and perhaps would have assumed they 'meant' something more dire than intended. Dell, if he had acted as Kim did at the end, could have picked on each of those scenarios. And I don't believe I'm too off the mark, regarding the 'baby' remark...it could have come across to someone if that someone was insecure or looking for slights, as meaning if you won't give me a baby, I will find someone who will (which is definitely *not* showing real love for the other person), and which apparently does bear out to some degree, given the end of the film.
Myself: I wanted them to stay together. I think they could have learned from each other over time and experience, and been a great couple. The obvious pull they have toward each other, over time, didn't appear 'sick' to me, although their various personality quirks and what-nots certainly contributed to the mutual attraction.
That initial chemistry and 'pull' I think could have been a great foundation for a future continuing relationship. Yeah, it could be messy at times and, yeah, intensity sometimes can be a lot of work, but that kind of foundation can be great bedrock for the upcoming years of being together, forgiving each other's mistakes and our own, working things out, arguing, coming back to together, etc.
I've done the 'settling' thing and then I took the chance that Kim didn't...went for the Dell person. And I gotta say, through all the twists and turns a relationship can take, that his thunderstruck devotion has never waned one bit, and has actually been the slim reed we have been able to hold onto in tough times. I have had to teach him a few things, too, and I myself have had to learn that honesty (not cruel honesty, but forthright honesty and not just toward the other person, but also about ourselves) is nothing to be afraid of...if couples really love each other, they will get through it and be the better for it.
And it continues...
When traveling through a long-term relationship: context changes; life throws both positive and negative changes; we grow and change. But if the couple can keep some kind of grip on that devotion-to-each-other, even if seems one-sided at times, even during the times they may think they are 'out of love' or not as attracted to each other for a while, or whatever, I believe that they will be more able to grow, make compromises, make sacrifices, and renegotiate their relationship in ways they may have thought not possible.
I would bet that Kim, if she stays married to Jack, will one day regret losing Dell and his wanting only her in the special way that he did.
Then again...I am an incurable romantic ~
Again...thanks for such a thoughtful post and splendid discussion!
"Shake your hair girl with your ponytail"