After episode 3 or 4, this shows went its own separate way. Missing or changing nearly every important moments from the book.
What a disappointment. Seeing all these 10/10 reviews is mindboggling.
I heard they moved some of the things from the early book to the end of the show.
shareI concur for the most part. I'm not familiar with the book or the 1980 version, but I was very impressed by the first 4 episodes. Where Shogun has begun to err, in my opinion, is pretty much abandoning Blackthorne's difficulty with acclimating to Japanese culture. That was the most interesting aspect of the first few episodes. Now there's far too much focus on the internecine conflicts among various factions that I don't find all that compelling. I've only gotten through episode 7, but I can't remember the last time Blackthorne even asked about his crew.
shareYeah, the first few episodes were okay, but then the show suddenly focused almost solely on anything Mariko while Blackthorne did literally nothing but still stumble over his bad manners, lack of Japanese and shitty mood while asking for his fucking ship every episode. Thrilling.
I kinda like Jarvis, but man... this ain't Blackthorne. Not his fault either, what can he do with that sort of material?
When people started calling the show Shegun, I initially thought they overreact. Well they did not. This is Shegun. Mariko was ultimately the center of everything and the show wasted even more valuable time and sacrificed other good sub plots and scenes from the book and original for the whole Ochiba nonsense.
We get it. The force is female.
Women make the world go round.
shareHehehe "Shegun." Put a chick in it, etc...
Still, I'm halfway through E07 and as long as Hiroyuki Sanada and Nestor Carbonel remain in it, I'll keep at it. Unless...are they planning a second season? It's been so long since the 1980 TV mini-series, I haven't found my "sea plot legs." That might be asking too much...
Man you people just love to cry about everything. You mean the noblewoman translator that has a direct connection to the leader is showing up on the screen too much? Oh nooo... Get a grip.
shareOriginal Mariko had a LOT of screen time as well, you do not here "us people" complaining about that - now why is that I wonder?
Maybe come back once you actually managed to grasp the criticism people share, instead of just pretending the issues are something else. What's next? Some "basement" and "neckbeard" comments? What about the good 'ol "incel" accusation?
Misogyny? No not even that? Come on, step it up.
>grasp the criticism
You have no "criticism".
Mariko being on screen a lot makes sense for obvious reasons, it would be like complaining that Blackthorne or Yabushige are on the screen a lot. This doesn't even qualify as "criticism" due to how hollow of a thing to say it is. Therefore I conclude that you just love complaining, that's all. You want to be angry at current thing and say it's all woke, etcetc. I am aware of all the woke stuff going on (and have been for a long time) and this show is a breath of fresh air, it's not pandering to feminism like you're insinuating at all. But here must come the guy who is addicted at being angry at the world to tell me how this show was actually woke because... the only known translator of Toranaga showed up on screen a lot... to translate... Wow... Who cares?
Don't you get tired being angry all the time?
> You have no "criticism".
Yeah I do, the subforum of Shogun is full of it, you just fail to understand it and instead continue to lie.
> Mariko being on screen a lot makes sense for obvious reasons
See? You're implying that I am critical of Mariko having lots of screen time, which is not the case. The problem with her, is what she does with that screen time. That is why I hinted at the fact that I do not mind the 1980s Mariko having a lot of screen time - but you completely ignored that or failed to comprehend it.
This is a you problem, so before you worry about me "being angry all the time", which isn't the case anyways, start to worry about yourself being really fucking dumb, instead.
Win/win!
>but then the show suddenly focused almost solely on anything Mariko. This is Shegun. Mariko was ultimately the center of everything. The force is female.
This is your initial "criticism". You didn't "hint" at anything. Just crying about a character and implying some feminist woke agenda because of it. It's retarded. A real criticism would be saying something is not accurate or there's a plothole somewhere.
For example, I think the show would be much more interesting and deep if they spoke all three languages (Portuguese, Japanese and English) but on the other hand I understand the logistics of doing that are more complicated. This a real and logic critique of the show, I'm sure there are many more and it's why I came here to look for them.
Saying "I NO LIKE THE WOMAN, FUCK SJWS" is not a criticism, it's just retardation. Offer a better criticism next time instead of lazy retardation that only resonates with midwits. Mariko was a cool character and the actress did a good job, I guess I'm a simp feminist ridin' with biden troon for stating the obvious, right?
> Saying "I NO LIKE THE WOMAN, FUCK SJWS" is not a criticism
I don't care, because I never said that.
Despite me telling you what you did wrong - you keep doing it.
Instead of just asking for clarification, you're assuming and then convince yourself that your nasty assumptions are facts, but no matter how hard you want that to be the case, that just won't make it so.
In my previous post, the one you cited and then claimed I hate women, I clearly stated that original Mariko having a lot of screen time was not issue. You ignored that, and again, that's a you-problem.
You could have asked why I have a problem with new Mariko, but not original Mariko.
Instead, you decided to show everyone how ideologically intoxicated you are and immediately and unironically, call me a misogynist.
That's so fucking stupid, lol.
I'm not calling you a misogynist. You could say straight up you are a misogynist racist antisemite blablabla. Good for you, I don't care. I'm not here to talk politics.
All I'm seeing is you complaining that a woman has screen time and then assuming this makes the show some feminist shitshow when this was not the case at all and it made sense for this character to have screen time. In your original post you simply complain that a woman had a lot of screen time (the woman part is relevant as you know since you said "we get it, the force is female" to imply there's some feminist propaganda going on) but you never elaborate on why this is a problem that one of the main characters upon which the whole story revolves around has a lot of screen time. It's just an empty critique.
If you think Blackthorn was poorly portrayed this is unrelated to Mariko having more or less screentime, so why bring it up? Blackthorn probably had more screen time than Mariko, so why does this matter at all?
You:
> Saying "I NO LIKE THE WOMAN, FUCK SJWS" is not a criticism, it's just retardation. Offer a better criticism next time
Also you:
> I'm not calling you a misogynist.
!?
> All I'm seeing is you complaining that a woman has screen time and then assuming this makes the show some feminist shitshow...
That's again something I did not say.
And I did not assume her screen time is the issue - YOU assumed this about me, wrongly.
The actual issue is what is done with her screen time.
Again, I was absolutely fine with every second original Mariko got in the 80s series.
So keep your dumb assumptions to yourself, they make you look like a fool.
> but you never elaborate on why this is a problem that one of the main characters upon which the whole story revolves around has a lot of screen time. It's just an empty critique.
Not in this thread, no, fair enough.
But I already said, you could have just ask for me to elaborate. However, you decided to make it personal, assume the worst and go from there instead.
>I say retarded shit and refuse to elaborate. You MUST ask me to elaborate. Stop assuming things.
Don't care. You're boring me now. I come here to read some actual critique about this show not some political retardation. Idgaf if you are a simp or a misogynist, go talk about it in a politics forum. We probably even agree about it. I'm not here to talk politics.
> I lost a debate and am a sour loser, so I just become severely hostile over nothing and act like a pouting teenager
Okay. Have a nice day.
There's nothing to lose because you never gave an actual critique you just said retarded shit about screen time and cried about women like a loser. I objectively won since I made actual arguments. I came here looking for any real criticisms of the show and instead I see "Omg woman on screen wtf :(" Go ahead and cope reply, I'll let you have it.
shareStill ignoring that I am fine with original Mariko's screen time.
You're either stupid, or just a vicious cunt. Or both.
Thanks, you've saved me several hours. I'll skip it.
shareMost of the plot of Shogun was followed pretty well. Here is the synopisis of the book from Wikipedia:
At the end of a long voyage claiming many lives, including its captain, the Erasmus—secretly sent to plunder and forge military alliances to disrupt and take over Portugal's lucrative East Asian trade—is marooned in Izu's peninsular harbor.
The first Northern Europeans to reach Japan, the surviving Dutch crew and English pilot Blackthorne are imprisoned by Izu's daimyō Yabu who seizes the "barbarian" ship's records, armaments and coin for himself. A spy reports the ship to Yabu's liege Toranaga, Lord of the Kantō and president of the Council of Regents. Seeing the ship as an advantage against Lord Ishido, his chief rival in the factional Council, Toranaga dispatches his commander-in-chief General Toda "Iron Fist" Hiro-matsu via galley to claim the ship and its contents. Of the Erasmus' crew, only Blackthorne is aboard for Hiro-matsu's return to Osaka.
In Osaka Toranaga questions Blackthorne while a Portuguese Jesuit dutifully and accurately translates despite the Protestant revealing that Catholic Portugal and Elizabethan England are at war. As Toranaga realizes the hidden extent of Christian divisions, Ishido unexpectedly arrives to see the barbarian he was not to know of. The interview ends quickly.
Toranaga imprisons Blackthorne to sequester him from Ishido. In confinement a Franciscan friar, also an inmate, teaches Blackthorne rudimentary Japanese and Japan's current political dynamics, revealing how collusions between Portuguese traders and Jesuits, including fomenting of violent agitations inside Japan, have worked to sustain huge profits for the Portuguese Crown at Japan’s expense from the silk trade. While in transit to be executed at the prodding of the two Catholic Regents, Toranaga’s men rescue and deliver Blackthorne to their lord.
Toranaga's subsequent questioning of Blackthorne is translated by Lady Toda Mariko, a Catholic educated by Jesuits but loyal only to Toranaga; not her church. She faithfully translates as Blackthorne tells an alarmed Toranaga that by treaty the Pope had assigned Portugal colonial rights to Japan and East Asia. Portugal promised in return to replace all non-Catholic Japanese rulers, which included Toranaga, with only those of the faith loyal to Portugal and Rome. He adds that the Jesuits had Catholic Ronin mercenaries, without being discovered as such, invade Japan from their secret base. Toranaga reacts to the revelations by refusing to let Portugal’s trading ship set sail for Europe. For the Portuguese this marks Blackthorne as an even more dangerous and costly obstacle.
The night before the Council of Regents meets, a mysterious rampaging assassin seeded in Toranaga's household for years as a maid fails to kill her target Blackthorne. The Council does meet, but it goes badly for Toranaga who resigns to avoid a Council's order to commit seppuku. Still unsafe, Toranaga and a handful of his court secretly escape with the critical aid of some antics from Blackthorne. To clear Osaka's blockaded harbor, Toranaga reluctantly surrenders Blackthorne to the Jesuits in return for the Portuguese firing canon. However, a Portuguese pilot owing Blackthorne for saving his life during their earlier voyage to Osaka, throws him overboard to swim and board Toranaga's galley then safely en route to Anjiro.
In Anjiro Blackthorne’s Japanese improves as does his knowledge and appreciation of the culture, which the Japanese, to a degree, come in time to recognize and esteem. Still, the Japanese are conflicted: Blackthorne is disparaged as a leader of a filthy, uncouth and disgraceful European rabble. Regardless, he continues to advance in stature, in part due to his knowledge of how to fire canons more accurately than the Japanese could imagine, and partly due to Blackthorne post-earthquake pulling Toranaga from underneath rubble. He becomes elevated to samurai and hatamoto – the latter of which accords him rights of direct audience. Blackthorne’s prolonged contact with Toranaga raises his regard for him; the same occurs with Mariko, with whom he has a secret affair. A chance encounter with his old crew highlights his immersion. They are mutually revolted: the Dutchmen for his Japanese ways, and he for the European character of their coarseness.
Although Toranaga, with Mariko and Blackthorne, has escaped Osaka, Ishido keeps the other daimyōs underfoot by holding them and their families hostage. For some time Toranaga has feigned acquiescence to Ishido, and has acted accordingly. This allows Mariko to re-enter Osaka. Mariko then openly attempts leaving to lay bare that Ishido is holding noble households hostage. Ishido's men respond with violence until an intentionally unharmed Mariko gives up on leaving. Saying she has been dishonored, Mariko promises to kill herself the next day. She does almost end her life when Ishido grants her request to leave at the last minute in a delaying gambit. That night the duplicitous Yabu lets Ishido’s ninjas slip into Toranaga's compound to kidnap Mariko. Instead, explosives Ninjas set on a barred door kill her. The death of Mariko that Ishido sought to prevent forces him to free his hostages; thus weakening his military alliances greatly. As for Yabu, Toranaga learns of his treachery and orders him to commit seppuku. Yabu complies, giving his prized katana to Blackthorne.
At the book's end, Toranaga in an inner monologue reveals that he destroyed the Erasmus to bring the Catholic daimyōs to his side and to have them agree to not kill Blackthorne, whose karma is to never leave Japan, as Mariko's karma was to die for her lord, and as his karma was to be Japan’s absolutely powerful shogun.
Mariko's will gives Blackthorne enough money to build a new ship, for which Toranaga provides needed craftsmen.
In the brief epilogue, Toranaga captures Ishido at the Battle of Sekigahara and buries him up to his neck until he dies three days later.
The 1980 and 2024 series do not address almost the entire political maneuverings of Toranaga and his enemies. Reading an actual synopsis of the book would reveal how empty both TV series are in comparison.
shareThat is the synopsis of the book, according to Wikipedia.
Wikipedia: Shōgun (novel)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sh%C5%8Dgun_(novel)#Premise
That is not the plot of the book, it is the plot of the 2024 TV series. One obvious clue is the assassin.
In the book the assassin was a member of the Amida Tong, who entered the castle while killing several guards. The assassin was killed by Naga, one of Toranaga's sons.
In the series, the assassin is a maid, appearing to be a member of their staff, who is killed by Toranaga.
Wikipedia: Shōgun (novel)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sh%C5%8Dgun_(novel)#Premise
I don't think it makes much difference to the general plot who the assassin was.
I think the problem with this series, which overall I think was very well done, is the continuity. It hits all the plot points, but it is not that well connected. It was hard to follow.
One thing that bothered me about this new series is that it was constantly raining in Japan. Is that true? Does it really rain so much in Japan?
"One thing that bothered me about this new series is that it was constantly raining in Japan. Is that true? Does it really rain so much in Japan?"
Yes and no. I mean, Japan can be pretty rainy at certain times of the year, but even then, the sun does actually shine sometimes. The constant rain in this series feels to me, not like anything to do with Japan's actual climate, but with the fact that in these American productions anything with a historical setting has to be portrayed as gloomily as humanly possible. Always dark, always drab, always muted colors, always muddy and rainy, because "the past was bleak" and it has to look "gritty". It is so overdone and so tiresome. I hate those blue filters. In the 1980 Shogun miniseries (which, unlike this one, was actually filmed in Japan, though I concede that there are difficulties with that due to the sheer level of urban development in Japan today), Japan was depicted as a bright and vibrant place with rich colors. Some rain, some clouds, some sunshine. Not all rain all the time.
I either did not see the 1980 version or forgot it. I loved the book which I read when it came out as I got stung in the book or the month club, but it turned out really good.
I thought this mini-series, warts and all was pretty good. I still don't think anything is really portraying historical Japan as it was. Seems like it was pretty brutal, but then that is the image, and as the movie "Harakiri" by Masaki Kobayashi it was an image fo the masses that was often just window dressing to make the upper classes look nobel and superior.
I think Japan is a fascinating culture and people. Amazing what they have done with such a small island nation. Funny, I looked at a map recently and the islands that make up Japans extend up to the north into Russia ... and one has to wonder why Russia with all of that land - the biggest country on Earth has to lay claim to island that Japan is much better fit to manage?
I don't agree that Japan is necessarily better fit to manage the Kurils than Russia. Japan was a latecomer to the islands just as much as Russia was, they originally belonged to the local indigenous inhabitants, who haven't done much better as part of Japan than as part of Russia. The Ainu culture is almost entirely destroyed. The Soviet Union captured the islands from the fascist Japanese Empire in World War II. The dismantling of Japan's empire was a good thing, and part of the consequence for the Japanese Empire's aggressive wars. The islands' closer proximity to Tokyo than to Moscow is irrelevant in my opinion. For the Soviet Union, and then Russia, the Kurils are something of a security concern. If the islands were to go to Japan, then there will be US military bases on them, and Russia's access to the Pacific would be seriously threatened. Japan already has plenty of access to the Pacific. And I think the US has far too many overseas military bases already. Japan lost World War II fair and square, and the USSR earned the Kurils by helping defeat Japanese fascism. I say let Russia have the Kurils. Japan has no more inherent right to them than Russia does, and I dislike the right-wing Japanese revanchists who continually try to undo everything about the postwar order.
share> The dismantling of Japan's empire was a good thing
I am hardly disagreeing with that.
I think you are insane not to realize the experience Japans has with this region as compared with Russia on the complete other side of the Earth.
> The islands' closer proximity to Tokyo than to Moscow is irrelevant in my opinion.
An opinion based on emotion sounds like, or racism. BTW, I am a white American WASP, but I recognize governmental competence, and Japan is one of the best run countries in the world, as opposed to Russia.
> If the islands were to go to Japan, then there will be US military bases on them
American bases are not long for Japan, and certainly not increasing. I do think the US is aggressing against Russia which in general I do not support, but have mixed feelings about.
> Japan lost World War II fair and square, and the USSR earned the Kurils by helping defeat Japanese fascism.
Russia did not really do much to defeat the Japanese, and they intended to swoop in at the end of the war to take whatever they could - under Stalin. I think you need to re-read history in that regard.
> I dislike the right-wing Japanese revanchists who continually try to undo everything about the postwar order.
Every country has malcontent idiots, Germany, Russia, Ukraine, the US, etc ... you cannot characterize a whole country by their nuts. The biggest concern in the world is that the nuts in America have taken over the Republican party and nothing close to that is happening in Japan. Now worries there.
Japan as a whole does have a pretty rainy climate. Wikipedia says Izu gets 80" of precipitation a year, twice as much as Seattle, while Osaka gets 53".
shareOK, thanks. There is such a thing as too much realism I guess.
share"japan" is multi geographical groups of islands ranging from the subtropical kyushu in the south to the northen regions of hunshu and hokkaido which are colder and have snow in the winter
shareI read the book years ago - right after the original TV series first aired. It seems to me the 1st show followed the book more closely than the new one.
I enjoyed the new Shogun, but I liked the original better.
The 1980 series followed the book much more closely even though most of the book was not on the screen. The 2024 series followed the book less well. The Blackthorne-Mariko affair was eliminated as was the assignment of 200 samurai to Blackthorne as his personal guard/soldiers. Blackthorne of the book was experienced with land warfare, in the 2024 series, he was not. The monk assigned to Blackthorne as a translator was not present in the 2024 series.
In my opinion, the 2024 series was better in some ways than the 1980 series simply because there were subtitles for the Japanese characters when they spoke.
1980 version was better and followed the book almost exactly, save for one or two scenes. There was some stuff that happened in the book that couldn't be shown on TV, even back then.
sharethis book is trash and not accruate at all, like he say there that japan dident used guns because "there is no honor" in that. the all "honor" nonsense regarding the samurai class have no basis in reality, samurai class was ruthless
share