MovieChat Forums > Star Wars: Episode VIII - The Last Jedi (2017) Discussion > Luke's temptation to kill Ben Solo is fu...

Luke's temptation to kill Ben Solo is fully legit and in line with the OT

posted 5 years ago by lolkatz (496)
33 replies | jump to latest

A lot of TLJ detractors find this to be at fault with Luke's character, or that no way he would even think of killing Ben etc. However, this kind of thing is EXACTLY what he was supposed to do. In ROTJ, Ben clearly expects Luke to kill his father Vader, otherwise "the Emperor has already won." And Yoda talks of the need to "confront" Vader, which also includes the possibility of Vader disposal. In ROTJ the main conflict is within Luke who has this clear cut Jedi mission to fulfill, meaning to kill Vader, so as to prevent Dark Side from winning over, but also wants to save his own father. As he opts for the latter, he escapes the trap that the Emperor tried to lure him in by letting him murder his own father. So in the end, the Jedi were revealed to have been mistaken, the Emperor's plan was foiled, and the hero with his big heart won the day. And TLJ also aptly delves into this matter - i.e., whether Jedi orthodoxy creates more harm than good - but that's not something TLJ haters would understand anyhow. But to go back to the main point, yeah, there should be no issue about Luke's temptation to kill Ben. And then his big heart kicks in again and you have this same ROTJ dilemma summarized in a brief flashback sequence brewing in him and again he resists the temptation.

[–] JimmyFishCakes (451) 5 years ago

Ugghhh...its not the same at all. Why are there so many idiots on this board? He never had any one on one time with Vader except for the two confrontations in V and VI where he was fighting for his life.

Now let’s take his nephew. Luke would have been a major part of Ben’s life growing up and then training him to be a Jedi in his teenage years. Luke would have been a father figure to him and more.

OMG he has a vision so he’s going to kill him. Just stupid writing from Ruin Johnson.

[–] lolkatz (496) 5 years ago

What, was this your attempt at making a counterargument? F u and your "majority of SW fans!"

[–] JimmyFishCakes (451) 5 years ago

Wasn’t a counter argument as your argument is invalid 😂

[–] Kowalski (76824) 5 years ago

MASTURBATES

[–] JimmyFishCakes (451) 5 years ago

cool.

[–] Martoto (5054) 5 years ago

OMG. In ROTJ, the father Luke swore not to kill or even fight suggests that Leia perhaps might be willing to turn to the dark side so Luke goes on a kill crazy onslaught that results in him trying to and almost going through with killing dad. Only stopping after he's cut his hand off.

Must be stupid writing from George Lucas. Right?

[–] JimmyFishCakes (451) 5 years ago

[deleted]

[–] triplea (3577) 5 years ago

... hahaha I'm actually laughing at this PATHETIC defense of the DT.

EVEN sjw level mental gymnastics aren't enough to appreciate this.

Of course we all know he was to 'face' Vader, not necessarily kill him. Plus Luke is quoted several times stating that he believes there is 'still good' in Vader after all this time - he wants to try and save him. To believe one of the most evil people in history can be saved and then even think about KILLING his own nephew over a dream is actually laugh out LOUD laughable and a complete character assassination (which we now know was deliberate).

Plus this isn't the OT - this is like 30+ years on AFTER Luke had become a Jedi ...

Thread invalidated - May the soy be with you.

[–] lolkatz (496) 5 years ago

No, it is your argument that is invalid. He is expected to "confront Vader," then he says "I can't K.I.L.L. my own father," to which Obi Wan responds, "Then the Emperor has already won." He didn't go like, "well you know, you don't have to kill him or anything like that, relax bro!" etc.

[–] footlegger (1465) 5 years ago

Fans temptation to ignore the DT is fully legit and in line with the OT.

[–] JlawsANormlHuman (847) 5 years ago

"And Yoda talks of the need to "confront" Vader, which also includes the possibility of Vader disposal. "

that's why Yoda didn't train Luke once in lightsaber fighting right?

Even if what you said was true, when all of it was legit inferences garbage. What the result is Jedi took the road of the mindful warrior. The in control Jedi who while he eventually had great skill, had even more love for his family and friends. And believed in the good in them so much he was willing to risk doing a solo mission in ROTJ that risked the entire universe and emperor winning to show it

hence why Luke thinking about cutting down his BEST FRIEND and SISTERS son because of a momentary flash of evil is a joke.

YET ANOTHER apologist who didn't get the OT...

[–] lolkatz (496) 5 years ago

You are confounding Luke's decisions in ESB&ROTJ, with the Jedi mission he was to fulfill. He was supposed to let go of his friends and "confront" Vader. He was supposed to fulfill his strict Jedi duty, but instead he followed his heart. As he becomes a seasoned Jedi Master by the time Ben Solo becomes his student, he too adopts the strict Jedi way, which means "keep the Dark Side at bay, destroy it altogether whenever possible." As he senses huge Dark Side potential in Ben Solo, he is tempted. He is only tempted for a second. It's not a big deal. Had it been a more conservative Jedi Master, maybe he would have gone at him. It wouldn't have been against the Jedi doctrine. But, this was Luke, human first, Jedi second. In that way, I feel that the TLJ scene was in full accordance with his character and the whole Jedi storyline.

[–] JlawsANormlHuman (847) 5 years ago

no im not confounding anything... im talking about car character development, character traits and a character arc...

We don't know what he became. it was never shown. heck it was never even told (the lazier form of storytelling) so what you are doing to inferring and giving a post hoc explanation to the poor storytelling.

" As he senses huge Dark Side potential in Ben Solo, he is tempted. He is only tempted for a second. It's not a big deal. Had it been a more conservative Jedi Master, maybe he would have gone at him. It wouldn't have been against the Jedi doctrine. "

lol and so what were the prequels and Anakin Skywalker then? surrounded by multiple Jedi masters, the Jedi council. massively emotional, literally a broken man who saw his mom die and then proceeded to commit genocide. Yet not one of those people thought about striking him down.

but Luke who wouldn't even strike down the second most evil man in the galaxy because he sensed a tiny amount of good, was about to strike down his nephew because he sensed SOME bad POTENTIAL.

you don't even believe this garbage you write do you?

[–] lolkatz (496) 5 years ago

He saw evil and was triggered by it. In the same vain he almost slew his father in ROTJ because he panicked Vader would turn to Leia. He panicked and started pounding the old man with his laser sword and was very close to killing him, but the he stopped. Given that whole history of his character and the overall Saga, I don't think TLJ flashback sequence goes against it. Luke is constantly beset by his own emotions. The Jedi way is to shun those and seek greater moral righteousness that is unaffected by the fleeting sensations of fear, rage, love and lust. But Luke is very human.

[–] JlawsANormlHuman (847) 5 years ago

AND YET, he STOPPED. Its called an arc kid. which we saw that Luke had full control by the end and was still a caring human. And the final result that was Luke would never of done that to Kyle.

again since you are clearly the slow type "Luke who wouldn't even strike down the second most evil man in the galaxy because he sensed a tiny amount of good, was about to strike down his nephew because he sensed SOME bad POTENTIAL."

Again. do you even believe the garbage that you write? Hence why most fans don't agree with you and Mark Hamil doesn't agree with you

[–] lolkatz (496) 5 years ago

AND YET, he STOPPED. Its called an arc kid

*sighs*

[–] JlawsANormlHuman (847) 5 years ago

the fact you repeat your nonsense over and over again. doesn't make it true. again let me write down actual facts about Lukes are and character that even Hammil himself agrees with.

""Luke who wouldn't even strike down the second most evil man in the galaxy because he sensed a tiny amount of good, was about to strike down his nephew because he sensed SOME bad POTENTIAL.""

[–] Martoto (5054) 5 years ago

Luke did strike down the second most evil man in the galaxy in a ferocious and sustained attack. Hacking at him over and over until one hand was off and the other was held out, pleading with Luke for mercy.

This time, all Luke did was instinctively turn his saber on because he was experiencing a vision of the future (see TFA for what it's like to actually experience a force vision of the future)

[–] JlawsANormlHuman (847) 5 years ago

did he strike him down? lol you've never heard of an arc have you? what did Luke say after his fight with Vader?

more sad last Jedi defenders. I guess the majority of fans and mark hammil are all wrong lol

[–] lolkatz (496) 5 years ago

He simply panicked for a second there and switched on his laser sword. Not a biggie. It went bad however, because the prick woke up. So, Luke messed up, yes, but who said he was perfect?

[–] arflexit (2376) 5 years ago

I can see that your argument that he messed up but only for a second and he would not have actually followed through in murdering his nephew as a valid argument for him staying character.

But what is absolutely NOT in character for Luke to give up after that mistake. The entirety of his hiding as presented in the Last Jedi is out of character and he is reduced to a whimpering pathetic coward who gave up and quite the jedi, the force, the republic, and his family the second something went wrong. That was NOT in character for Luke

[–] lolkatz (496) 5 years ago

Well, why not? He has never been a Jedi master before. He got old. Things didn't work out the way he hoped for. In a way, Luke of the sequel trilogy is a different character than young and up-and-coming Luke of the OT. He did not have to follow the same pattern. People change. Where I come from, I actually was very critical regarding the depiction of Han Solo in TFA. An old guy still roaming around the universe in his leather jacket, despite his failed marriage and parenthood. Still I thought it was a shameless fan service.

[–] arflexit (2376) 5 years ago

"Luke of the sequel trilogy is a different character than young and up-and-coming Luke of the OT."

We that right there sums up the critics complaints. He is NOT the same character. and this does not subvert audience expectations, it undermines and frustrates the expectations.

"People change."

Not significantly in their personality and inward character. Their motivations and actions might but not who they are. Luke's was a personality and character change so he really was not the same character anymore. And I am talking about his character in the film not him considering killing his nephew which I agree with you that him considering it at the moment might be within his character's range.

" I actually was very critical regarding the depiction of Han Solo in TFA. An old guy still roaming around the universe in his leather jacket, despite his failed marriage and parenthood. Still I thought it was a shameless fan service."

It was shameless fan service and I would argue the depiction of Han in TFA is every bit as bad as the depiction of Luke in TLJ.

[–] lolkatz (496) 5 years ago

Luke did what yoda and obi wan did after their failure with anakin. Luke's story in the sequels follows that pattern.

[–] arflexit (2376) 5 years ago

But Luke was shown to be different than Yoda and Obiwan. It was not in character for him to follow there path.

Not only that Yoda and obi did not reject the Jedi way in their exile like Luke does so it is not a good comparison

[–] JlawsANormlHuman (847) 5 years ago

lol false dichotomy. he is other perfect or else he thinks about murdering his best friend and sisters son while he sleeps? lol

see if they even had one ounce of Star Wars lore knowledge or intelligence they could of gone with "Luke brought Kylo and his students to what he thought was an old Jedi temple.. it ended up being a Sith grove that sent out dark side energy"

then I buy it. but again. a random kid on the internet is better than Rian Johnson and his team or writers..

[–] Martoto (5054) 5 years ago

Your suggestion sounds exactly like something written by a fan.

Not a compliment by the way.

[–] JlawsANormlHuman (847) 5 years ago

these things have been in Star Wars dozens of times. also it was a "if you had to go with Luke attacking men route, at least explain it well".

lol he never attacked ben. he just thought about murdering him in cold blood while he slept lol.

yes you have failed man. it okay. you can admit it was bad writing mark hammil did

[–] Martoto (5054) 5 years ago

He never attacked Ben. He almost succeeded in killing his own father. Switching your saber on in a moment of pure instinct in response to force visions is not thinking about committing cold blooded murder.

[–] JlawsANormlHuman (847) 5 years ago

you didn't watch the movie did you...No matter how you spin it. this movies crap

[–] Martoto (5054) 5 years ago

You’re the one that has ignored the fact that Luke attacked and almost killed his father, but he only switched his saber on instinctively while experiencing the future suffering in the galaxy.

[–] LordBAElish (2015) 5 years ago

During the vision Luke admits he had a moment where he thought he could kill Ben to prevent the vision from coming true. But he couldn't do it. He was just hovering there with his light saber drawn when Ben woke up.

[–] Martoto (5054) 5 years ago

Luke attacked his father. He NEVER attacked Ben.

You’ve failed.