Something that has been bugging me about the ending - Star Wars: Episode VIII - The Last Jedi (2017) Discussion

[–] furiousstyles (4391) 7 years ago

and if hes willing to force project and kill himself, why didnt he just think , oh well , im willing to die , i might as go with Rey, hook up with my long lost sister and give it everything ive got to protect her and at the same time, see if i can take a few bad guys with me.

and if he can force project to a known location , surley he must of had the power to know what happened with Han.

horrid, horrid ending

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[–] lordbishop34 (1442) 7 years ago

Well this way he can use a twist with the audience and makes it so he doesn't have to write something to explain how Luke wouldn't have killed Kylo Ren (Sorry, having seen him fight in two movies now...he would lose).

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[–] Quint (957) 7 years ago

lordbishop, doing a script only with the audience thinking in mind will never result in a good story at all. Indeed there are exceptions like Hitchcock, but usually .... its just lazy writing resulting in horrible stories.

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[–] lordbishop34 (1442) 7 years ago

You don't do a script with just the audience thinking in mind. IN a series like Star Wars and the second part of the third trilogy you do take in mind what has come before. This film feels like the director just wanted to do his own thing and to hell with JJ and the rest and of course a big FU to the third film director who left the the project. This is fine for a standalone film, not so great when its part of a series.

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[–] Frogarama (12942) 7 years ago

But the whole hologram shtick just seems to be RJ having a 'gotcha' moment with the audience.

And it's not the only gotcha moment in the movie, there are several of them. Lots of plot concepts in this movie get repeated over and over with different characters, because Rian didn't have a lot of ideas for the movie.

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[–] sunshine62 (252) 7 years ago

@ to Arghhh

While living on the island ,Luke had shut down his connection with the Force but after Rey's arrival he became once again attuned to the Force and he used it to connect/wake up Leia who was recovering .

It is possible that , off screen, Leia fearing the worse trapped in the cave surrounded by The First Order used the Force to summon Luke and plead for his help.

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[–] Arghhhh (804) 7 years ago

Well the key words there are 'off screen'. And even if she did summon him for help he has no way of knowing his force projection would do any kind of good.

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[–] sunshine62 (252) 7 years ago

@ to Arghhh.
Not every thing needs to be done on screen.

Earlier in the film Luke connected to Leia via the Force so it's certainly possible that Leia reached out to him in that moment of great need .

I'm certain that Luke would not have ignored Leia 's pressing SOS so he got there in the quickest way possible and he knew that if he put himself between the rebels and the First order troops he had a good chance that Kylo would want to confront him.

Obviously ,Luke was aware of his nephew and ex' student's overly emotional character , he knew he was full of rage towards him .

Luke knew Kylo would stop dead in his track to deal with him first and that their confrontation would offer precious time to the rebels to hopefully find in the meantime a way to escape.
I don't think it's such a far fetched explanation but obviously you're free to agree or not.

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[–] Arghhhh (804) 7 years ago

No, it doesn't, but it helps if you include at least some moments on screen which make the story make sense.

You've done a good job here of explaining some of the problems away but the fact that the viewer is forced to fill in so many blanks - and worse, actually subtly retcon certain things - is a big problem with the sequels.

The truth is the ending is just a (yet another) massive contrivance. The only sequence of events that made his sacrifice worth while was exactly the sequence of events that happened, because the film forced them to in order to make the bad writing work.

If he turned up 5 minutes earlier and the battle was still raging would he even have been able to do anything? If he turned up 5 minutes later it would have been to late. If the rebe ah I mean the resistance escaped anyway he would have killed him self pointlessly. The *only* circumstances where he could do any good at all was one in which causing a 5 minute distraction was the difference between life and death for his friends. It's not the biggest crime this movie makes but it's just one more ludicrous issue you need to tell your brain to just ignore if you have any chance of enjoying things.

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[–] sunshine62 (252) 7 years ago

@ to arghhhh:

So because Luke arrived exactly before the First Order started bombing the cave causing then with his presence a 5 minute distraction which gave the resistence the time to excape , you see that as a contrivance?

But isn't that what heroes are expected to do ?.. have the ability to turn up at that exact moment when things are about to fall apart ...isn't a hero's intervention suppose to make the difference , make everything right, save the day?

Most fans weren't happy when , in the beginning of the film, Luke was depicted as a fallen hero...but when he gets his act together and he's back being the hero we loved saving the resistence the word contrived pops up...beats me.

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[–] Arghhhh (804) 7 years ago

"So because Luke arrived exactly before the First Order started bombing the cave causing then with his presence a 5 minute distraction which gave the resistence the time to excape , you see that as a contrivance? "

Yes.

"But isn't that what heroes are expected to do ?.. have the ability to turn up at that exact moment when things are about to fall apart ...isn't a hero's intervention suppose to make the difference , make everything right, save the day?"

Yes. And the writers job is to have that happen in a way way that doesn't make the audiences' eyes roll.

"Most fans weren't happy when , in the beginning of the film, Luke was depicted as a fallen hero...but when he gets his act together and he's back being the hero we loved saving the resistence the word contrived pops up...beats me."

It's *how* he saves them, not that he does, that is the problem. His plan makes about as much sense as the hero shooting himself in the face in the hope that the blood splatter hits the villain in the eye, distracting him long enough for his friends to escape, even though there is no way he knows if there even is any possibility of escape.

Look, like I said - it's not the biggest problem, and I actually like the idea as it harks back to the more profound moments in the OT, when Kenobi and later Luke refuse to fight Vader (and in doing so win a greater victory) BUT, when you've got a plot riddled with holes like Swiss Cheese any goodwill I might have had to excuse this is already long gone.

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[–] sunshine62 (252) 7 years ago

by arghhhh :
It's *how* he saves them, not that he does, that is the problem. His plan makes about as much sense as the hero shooting himself in the face in the hope that the blood splatter hits the villain in the eye, distracting him long enough for his friends to escape, even though there is no way he knows if there even is any possibility of escape.

I think that part was irrelevant but just for the books I didn't think he was aware of the back opening.

What we all actually do know is that Luke had faith and believed in the Resistence .

When Luke appeared the Resistence was on its knees ...it had lost all hope and what did Luke do ?
He stepped out to confront the enemy , to face Kylo .
And now I ask you ...what's more inspiring than to see a person , who obviously still believed and had faith in you (in this case the resistance) sacrifice his life to buy time for you to find a way to turn the odds around?

Luke lit their hope again ..

that was his ultimate goal ..as for finding a way out that was up to the Resistance and Luke was confident it would do so.

Poe in fact realised what Luke was doing and he understood the deeper meaning behind his gesture and that inspired him to not give up until he found a solution /a means of escape because letting Luke's sacrifice go to waste was not an option and there was too much at stake ...justice and freedom for all.

When Luke sensed that Poe with the help of Rey had found a way out he turned off his lightsaber and corrected Kylo and told him that today the Resistence was reborn .

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[–] Arghhhh (804) 7 years ago

Do they even know it's a sacrifice at this point? They have no way of knowing this will kill him, surely. So they see the guy who's abandoned them turn up, for 5 minutes, but it's all a trick and he's not really there... that's not really the kind of thing to rebirth a resistance. And why does it need that act anyway? Surely the whole galaxy would despise the New Order after they just up and murdered 5 entire planets but then that's yet another plot point RJ abandoned...

As I say - it's an ok idea, just badly, badly executed.

I'll leave you with an example of how to do it well, from the OT, the moment when Han turns up to rescue Luke. Yes - it's pure Hollywood, the hero turning up at the very last second to save the day but all the pieces were in place. We know Han is selfish, but beginning to show signs of changing his mind, we know he can't be far from the battle as he was just there, we know he's reckless/fearless so when he turns up everything clicks into place and you have a fantastic moment. It's not ruined by your brain having to do the writers job for them and say something like 'How did he even know there was a battle? Maybe somebody off screen texted him?'. It works, all by itself. As a story should.

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[–] sunshine62 (252) 7 years ago

Questions by arghhhh.

Q.Do they even know it's a sacrifice at this point? They have no way of knowing this will kill him, surely
@ Well it’s obvious.. anyone that walks out to confront the First Order in full combat mode by himself is putting his life at stake , right? Coming out alive from such a confrontation is unlikely.

Q.So they see the guy who's abandoned them turn up, for 5 minutes, but it's all a trick and he's not really there...
@Apart Leia , I don’t think it was public knowledge what happened to Luke some 15 years prior. Some members of the Resistance where searching for him ..but for all they knew he might have been captive all this time and certainly not drooling on an island fishing and drinking green sea cow milk. As for the deception , they were unaware of that …Finn at one point wanted to go and help Luke but Poe stopped him.

Q.that's not really the kind of thing to rebirth a resistance.
@From the prospect of Poe and Co …I don’t think they thought for a moment that Luke would come out alive against the First Order…so Luke’s gesture had a lot of meaning…when he appeared even Leia had lost hope in their cause…….then Luke went out to confront the enemy courageously for them ...if that doesn’t touch / inspire you ..I don’t know what would…
...in fact that’s when Finn wants to go out and help but Poe , correction, new Poe stops him … Poe in the beginning of the film is still very reckless but towards the end we have a more mature Poe….he recalls the psalt speeders because he knows they don’t stand a chance and now he realizes that Luke’s sacrifice should not go wasted…and so he focuses on finding a way out …because they are the heart of the Resistance … the light in the dark .

Q. And why does it need that act anyway? Surely the whole galaxy would despise the New Order after they just up and murdered 5 entire planets .

continues...

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[–] sunshine62 (252) 7 years ago

continues..

@The whole galaxy didn’t stand up against Vader and the Emperor when Alderaan was destroyed.I don’t think you realize how devastating it would be to hear that the Resistance had been crushed by the First Order, that legends like General Leia ,and Admiral Ackbar who had fought and defeated Emperor Palpatine and destroyed the Dark Star had fallen ..their demise would worked as a deterrent for others to raise…people’s hearts ,despite their hatred for the enemy, would fill with fear.
As Poe said .. they must escape because that small number of Resistance fighters might just be the spark that ignites the flame that will burn the First order to the ground. This legendary Resistance , small as it may be now , might just inspire a new generation of organized committed people.

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[–] Arghhhh (804) 7 years ago

You make some good points sunshine62 but I'm not convinced. I genuinely believe that you're putting more effort into explaining the screenplay than was put in to it's creation.

Re the planet destroying. The Empire already had near total control of the galaxy. The First Order didn't, which is the critical difference. But then thanks to the muddled world building of the sequels it is entirely unclear as to who the first order are, where they came from or how powerful they are.

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[–] Arghhhh (804) 7 years ago

And just to add to the whole 'contrivance' part, exactly how many new aspects to the force powers do we need to make this work?

We need:

* Luke to be able to project himself. Which is a totally new power never seen until this moment.
* Ren - another powerful force user - to be unable to tell it's a projection
* The projection to kill Luke.

This idea that overexertion in the force can kill you is - far as I know - never been mentioned until this point in fact Yoda lifts the xwing without breaking sweat and that lesson seems to be 'the only limit to the forces power is your force of will' not 'be careful if you use the force too much as it might kill you'.

Surely you have to agree that these push the audiences suspension of disbelief too far?

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[–] sunshine62 (252) 7 years ago

By arghhhh * :
*And just to add to the whole 'contrivance' part, exactly how many new aspects to the force powers do we need to make this work?

@As I have already mentioned I’m hardly an expert when it comes to Star War lore.. I watched the series because I love sci-fic ..that said I will try to reply to my best of my knowledge.
__________________________________________________________________________
We need:

* Luke to be able to project himself. Which is a totally new power never seen until this moment.

@I can see this could be irritable …7 episode and only now does this new power appear …one gets the feeling that the writers introduced it because it was necessary to the story THEY wanted to write.
The writers did the same thing in ST: Into Darkness ..all of a sudden Khan’s blood had godlike properties , it could actually bring someone dead back to life…in ST:TOS Bones examined Khan thoroughly ( blood exam included) but he never mentioned that Khan had miracolous blood..idem in the film The Wrath of Khan ..it was never mentioned.

In Jar.Jar Abrams’ reboot they were set in doing a remake of Spock's death scene with a twist and they needed a way to reanimate Kirk after he died…so they invented on the spot the miracle blood.

Back to SW :On the other hand Luke had years to read and learn something new from those Jedi books in the cave.
__________________________________________________________________________
Ren - another powerful force user - to be unable to tell it's a projection.

@I have read several different conclusions regarding this point.

According to RJ Luke mastered the technique to be able to create a short –lived duplicate of himself. And that’s why Kylo didn’t realise the trick.
I don’t really get what that means …the duplicate was obviously not solid when Kylo confronted “Luke” ,seeing it left no red footprints and Kylo pierced it with his lightsaber ..so I don’t see any difference between RJ’s duplicate and Luke’s projection .

continues

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[–] sunshine62 (252) 7 years ago

continues...

in both cases they had no substance so despite they both appeared to be the real Luke , nothing was stopping Kylo from sensing they were fake.

http://www.thisisinsider.com/star-wars-the-last-jedi-how-luke-skywalker-used-force-projection-2018-1

Other fans say that Kylo was aware of the Force projection technique but he excluded that Luke would use it because there was the risk of it being fatal.

Some fans believe that Luke tricked Kylo into thinking he had mastered powers that made him quasi invincible ( that’s how Kylo supposedly interpreted the scene where Luke came out unharmed from a battalion’s worth of laser fire ) and this belief blinded Kylo temporarily from the truth seeing he had always been obsessed about being powerful.

I personally feel that when Kylo spotted Luke he was totally blinded by hatred and rage ..he just wanted to see his uncle , a close family member he loved and trusted and that had turned against him, dead.

Kylo is clearly emotionally instable he just kept on repeating more, more referring to the laser blasts.…not even the fact that Luke was unharmed after being targeted by the First Order’s laser fire did Kylo desist in his intent….I think he was reliving , all the pain his uncle’s betrayal caused him that fatal night at the academy.…also once face to face Luke’s choice of words …”.strike me down now and I will always be with you just like your father “… obviously had a disturbing effect on Kylo.

continue...

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[–] sunshine62 (252) 7 years ago

continue...

*The projection to kill Luke.

This idea that overexertion in the force can kill you is - far as I know - never been mentioned until this point in fact Yoda lifts the xwing without breaking sweat and that lesson seems to be 'the only limit to the forces power is your force of will' not 'be careful if you use the force too much as it might kill you'.

@ So Yoda connects to the Force and in a minute or so brings the Xwing out from beneath the muddy waters and “parks”it on the mainland. The fact that it was a large object had no bearing…but maybe time of execution and distance do have an effect ?

Now to Luke. He creates a Force projection across the galaxy .

This projection was definitely more than just a projection …the dices he placed in Leia’s hands were solid, even Kylo later held them in his hand and Luke held them also in his hands …so in certain moments we were dealing with more than a projection.

Luke’s projection , at moments solid, (which crossed the galaxy ), lasted several minutes ..seemingly the distance and duration of the projection took its toll on Luke.

*Surely you have to agree that these push the audiences suspension of disbelief too far?
There are definitely too many cringeworthy , eyes rolling moments.

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[–] filmtenk (765) 7 years ago

Blood spatter not splatter.

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[–] Arghhhh (804) 7 years ago

Not to get technical filmtenk but splatter is just like spatter but bit bigger amounts of splat. So either is fine in this context I would say. But it's an interesting point.

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[–] SyphiliticHobbit (367) 7 years ago

" It is possible that , off screen, Leia fearing the worse trapped in the cave surrounded by The First Order used the Force to summon Luke and plead for his help."

This is an absurd degree of fanwanking. Embarrassing.

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[–] sunshine62 (252) 7 years ago

by SyhilicHobbit :

This is an absurd degree of fanwanking. Embarrassing.

_____________________________
A. I'm not a Star Wars nerd fan .. I 'm a proud Trekkie who loves the sci-fic genre so hence I did watch TLJ.

B. I don't like much of the film ..most of the time it's an incoherent mess.

C. In a moment of fear and need , I personally believe it is possible that Leia reached out to her brother for help. Luke loves Leia dearly , he would have answered her plead.

4. You are free to disagree but just be civil about it ,no need for names.

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[–] TristanReloaded (449) 7 years ago

I personally believe it is possible that Leia reached out to her brother for help. Luke loves Leia dearly , he would have answered her plead.

Fine, but if you need to are write the script for them and need speculation to make a script coherent it's not a good sign.

1. But the film suggests otherwise, Leia was surprised to see Luke, and her dialogue suggests she though he would visit her "at the end", she though they would die together - thus she did not call him for help.

Luke: .... I'm sorry.
Leia: I know; I know you are. I'm just glad you're here at the end.
Luke: I come to face him, Leia; and I can't save him.

2. The most logical interpretation would be that after Luke burned down the tree and de facto accepted Rey to be the new Jedi Master (possessing the sacred texts), he decided to help Leia & Co as his last act and to face Kylo to say he was sorry or whatever. It was established in the film that Force projecting can be lethal (silly, but Kylo suggested it to Rey).

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[–] sunshine62 (252) 7 years ago

@ to TristanReloaded:

So if Luke decided he wanted to help Leia and Co. and confront Kylo why didn’t he just leave on the Millennium Falcon with Rey, instead of letting her risk her life on her own?

It's more likely that , after Rey’s departure , Luke sensed Leia who was reaching out after being pursued by the First Order on Crait....

Leia may have been surprised by Luke’s promptness in arriving and at that point it was clear everyone , including Leia, had given up hope and thought the end was near .

Leia was convinced the fight was over , the Resistance defeated so she thought brother and sister would die but at least they were together .

But Luke still had hope and felt , like all heroes do , he could save the day ,make the difference....and he was right ...his gesture reingnited their hope and while he stalled the enemy and Kylo , Poe use that precious time and found a way out with the help of Rey.

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[–] TristanReloaded (449) 7 years ago

So if Luke decided he wanted to help Leia and Co. and confront Kylo why didn’t he just leave on the Millennium Falcon with Rey, instead of letting her risk her life on her own?

Because of Luke's (shoddy) charater development:

- Rey's departure prompted Luke to burn it all down, the temple and the sacret texts.
- Yoda then came and essentially told Luke that Rey has the texts, and is better than him (they grow beyond us) and that she will will be the last Jedi and lead the new Jedi.
- Luke realizes he has "failed" and says he is "sorry".
- Luke is kind of relieved and ready to die. He then pops up via Force projection and apologizes to Leia and Kylo and says goodbye, and is even willing to help a bit by stalling.

Did Leia call out to him at this point for help? We do not know, it's not in the movie.

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[–] ProgSinister (188) 7 years ago

If Leia could use the Force to summon Luke then she could have done that at the beginning of the movie when the resistance was getting their arses kicked.
F-knows what happens if Luke comes back as an apparition with the ability to summon lightning bolts like Yoda did.

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[–] sunshine62 (252) 7 years ago

@ to ProgSinister

While living on the island , Luke shut himself off from the Force because he didn't believe anymore in the ways of the Jedis , he also didn't want to be found by anyone including his sister who could not track him via the Force anymore.

This is also why he didn't sense the death of this best friend Han and he didn't know anything about what was happening to the Resistance or that Rey when she arrived was Force sensitive.

Only sometime after Rey's arrival did Luke open himself to the Force again. That's when he sensed Leia was unconscious , recovering in sickbay. He reached out to her via the Force and she regained consciousness and they "spoke to each other".

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[–] ProgSinister (188) 7 years ago

While I don't agree with you, I can't argue against you as I had long since given up on the plot by then.

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[–] Ratatosk80 (6) 7 years ago

In regards to your question, this movie was in my opinion done in such a way that you can't really analyze and try and figure everything out. I am not saying this because I dislike the movie it's just the way it seems apparent to me. The script is clunky and a lot of stuff doesn't even really follow the established Star Wars universe rules as we know them and creates problems going forward( Yoda force ghost affecting the real world, Holdo using going into hyperspace as a weapon, Rey "downloading" with the force etc). The plot is contrived and don't stand up to scrutiny.

In short, there are no profound answers to be found for a lot of the problems. The scriptwriters winged it and now a lot of stuff is invented to answer a lot of the problems. Whatever answers we get in the final episode will not be because there was a grand plan. There is nothing to figure out at this point.

So in order to enjoy the movie you have to take it for what it is, a cool blockbuster SW movie that is more about visuals and feelings rather then lore and making exact sense in context with previous canon.

Basically as a Star Wars fan you have to be a bit relaxed and not look to closely. Lots of stuff will just be "because it happened off screen or just because". If you can accept that you can enjoy the movie.

Personally I can't. Always loved the lore behind Star Wars, happened more then once that I lost myself reading Wookieepedia about various stuff finding half and hour had gone by. That attitude, that nerd attitude isn't really suited for TFA or TLJ. The new canon is not as convincing because it feels more "artificial, not genuine". Thus not as interesting.In my opinion ofc.

New Star Wars is, as I wrote, more about feelings, nostalgia and visuals.

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[–] Arghhhh (804) 7 years ago

Agreed. Though I don't think it's a case of needing a nerd attitude - movie lore isn't just for the hard core fans (though they of course might enjoy diving into its depths more than a casual fan), consistency is required for any well told story.

But yes - the only way to enjoy these films is to switch your brain off, ignore the contrivances and plot gaps, just look at the pretty colours and explosions. And there's nothing wrong with that... there are plenty of films like that I can enjoy, it just winds the ever living **** out of me that this film has been hailed as a masterpiece. "Better than Empire". The most highly rated Sci Fi film of the year. Jesus Christ, what has happened to professional film criticism! There was a time when the critics would tear apart a film like TLJ for just the reasons you've described but the multiplex audiences would wolf it down because they're just happy to be distracted for 2 hours. Now the roles have flipped and the critics are bending over backwards to say this sh*t is gold while the average cinema goer is saying 'No, this needs to be better'. I can't explain it.

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[–] Ratatosk80 (6) 7 years ago

Like you say there is nothing wrong with enjoying movies without thinking to much about the plot and characters etc. Plenty of movies are just designed to be a fun roller coaster. I can for sure be entertained by a script wise very typical shallow blockbuster.

I think had I not been a big Star Wars fan I would have been a lot less critical. I would still have sighed and rolled my eyes at tons of stuff in TLJ, probably thought it was a bad movie but at least critique about Luke and how the movie ties together with the rest of the saga would be non existent.
And yes just to paint a target at my back, throwing it out there, I liked the prequels. Tons of problems in them but I could accept that since the world building and expansion of the universe was so well done. In my opinion they added so much to Star Wars as a whole. Disney SW I feel haven't done this, so there is nothing for me to grab onto. Had they given a great story and world building I would for sure have liked them even if they had tons of faults.

In regards to movie critics being able to spot a bad script. I grant you it's strange. Though one should have in mind that the vast majority of them are watching SW without any knowledge about how the movie should tie back to lore and the saga. Can't fault them for not spotting those kinds of things. Also it's a very beautiful movie visually. Still it's strange how everyone just gave it straight A:s.

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[–] TheUltimateHippo (2250) 7 years ago

A Luke vs Kylo lightsaber duel would have been awesome, too bad they managed to fuck that up.

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[–] TheUltimateHippo (2250) 7 years ago

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[–] ADBruno1985 (3506) 7 years ago

I don't think he could've known an exact 10 minutes like you propose. I agree he'd know that the time would be finite. But it would have to vary depending on how much he'd have to exert himself. He stalled for time a bit at the beginning of the confrontation, if he'd done that more, could've gotten more time, if Kylo had fought harder, could've been less time. I don't think he *knew* he'd be able to save the day, but he thought it worth the risk, as he had the best chance in a fight, so he saw it as worth the risk.

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