MovieChat Forums > Star Wars: Episode VIII - The Last Jedi (2017) Discussion > Trouble reconciling the critical (not fa...

Trouble reconciling the critical (not fan) praise of the film when so many flaws are objective, not subjective

posted 7 years ago by SyphiliticHobbit (367)
25 replies | jump to latest

Movies like F&F can divide fans and critics because some simply like to let their hair down and enjoy the pace and nonsensical fun it has. Others find it dumb. That's subjective.

For Star Wars TLJ though, many of the issues are not in dispute:

- Retroactively ruining any significance the OT had
- Flagrantly unlikable characters, ridden with flaws and emotional vanity
- Bizarre, not-subtle politicizing with females being hyper-alphas and males being drooling morons or simply evil*
- Plotting failures that have little buildup and ultimately lead nowhere.
- Merchandise advertising being thrown in your face. Look at the cute Porgs! Crystal Critters! Buy 2 for 1 at Toys-R-Us now!

* To expand on the politicizing, in a vacuum there isn't anything wrong with feminism or (of course) strong female characters. It needs to be done in an intelligent way (the same applies vice versa). You can have strong female characters, even champion feminism, without reducing males to laughingstocks. When the vast, vast majority of your audience is white males -- it rings hallow and is insulting. Which leads me to another question: why has Disney/KK decided to use the Star Wars brand to promote these things? And in such a non-subtle, on-the-nose, unintelligent way? I know stroking certain leftist ideologies caters to the RT critic crowd and makes them feel better about themselves, but it's just weird.

[–] Renovatio (2990) 7 years ago

Nerd culture is "the" mainstream culture... if that converts to and adopts feminism then that is a big win for that ideology... They'll already get the kids, so it's just the 25 - 45 year old men that they need to at least follow along, if not adopt it wholesale...

They'll get there.. it will just take two more films to do it...

Politically... It's the correct move... They already have the corporate world playing along (in all that is good and bad about their acceptence of women's issues)... The alignment of corporate and feminist interests in this Last Jedi controversy is telling, especially in the rotten tomatoes ratings discrepancy.. it echos the closing of the IMDB boards...

Very interesting film culture moment... One that is more significant than people currently realise...

I didn't realise the era of the manchild would end this way...

[–] Quint (957) 7 years ago

Wrong on all aspects. Reality is that the recent queer feminism destroyed most goals feminism reached. Recent SJW ideology is even supported by right wings, cause it fits their goals perfectly: To give any progress in society (which happened during the last 30-40 years) a bad taste.

So neither is the manchild at the end of his way nor has queer feminism anything to do with feminism at all (the complete opposiite is correct). So sorry to tell .... but 1-2 movies and the backlash to SJW ideology will bring us back to at least the 1970s. Cause society isnt part of the SJW ideology. And especially not kids.

[–] Renovatio (2990) 7 years ago

Disney decides what parents teach their kids... Kids are raised on Disney... They'll grow up with SJW anti-patriarchy ideology as a defining religion... This is already happening... The Last Jedi is not an exception... it is just an example..

I don't know... I really see identity politics only rising in movies, in politics and otherwise... I think people are getting more and more sucked into it... You have men asking for mens rights, instead of equal rights... That's the biggest sign right there...

The manchildren of the Star Wars era will just have less to complain about after the Han Solo movie because none of the next Star Wars will have anything to do with what they liked and remember... The Last Jedi took care of that... they'll just hide in their video games after giving the Solo movie $800 million sales, while it destroys Han Solo... They can't skip it...

[–] Quint (957) 7 years ago

Disney dont mean sh*t anymore to parents. Ever thought about the fact that a decade ago Disney almost went bankrupt. What Disney is doing right now is buying IPs so do survice for a bit longer. But the problem is that they destroy one IP after another (Marvel getting boring. Star Wars was destroyed last year).

So Disney doesnt matter at all. If their movies dont stop being mainly a SJW propaganda platform Disney will die. Its that easy. Cause society is done with queer gender and other braindead extremism. So manchilds, womanchild, etc. are supporting now right wings (you could realise that at the elections at the USA and in europe). And thos are the ones which really dominate the development of society, cause they have the money. So Disney didnt matter with its antique family vision at the 60s and 70s and they doesnt matter now. All they could do is losing money with their projects if they dont learn from the TLJ desaster.

Your dream of men are willing to accept sexism against them died a few years ago. SJW destroyed their own agenda.

[–] Renovatio (2990) 7 years ago

It's not my dream, please don't misunderstand me...

I'm not a SJW... I don't like extreme feminism, nor it's mirror extreme mens right activisism... I think identity politics is a bad thing generally... but I don't see any of this going away. I think it is inceasing...

All of the parents i know show their kids Disney shows... All of the people I know who are in their 20s and 30s are holding on to their childhoods for longer... Marvel and Disney movies are the most popular and successful financially this year...

But it's not just Disney and it's not just movies... TV shows are more extreme when it comes to this kind of ideology... Nearly all of Netflix's original shows are like that, or have some elements...

Yes, there is a reaction to all of this... Maybe the manchildren will grow up and become actual men again... Who knows? ... What I do think is that it's not going away soon... These ultra feminist and identity politics ideas will be something society has to deal with for decades to come... I think the right wing reaction to this will give them even more purpose, as has happened in the US after the election... They are louder than ever, but maybe that is the key... The louder and clearer the SJW/UltraFeminist and identity politics agenda is, the easier it is for people to reject it...

We'll see...

[–] Quint (957) 7 years ago

I got that you arent a SJW. And they are louder, cause they have no political influence anymore. And the problem with queer gender and other SJW idiots is that all they really do is to destroy everything real feminists worked for during the 60s-90s. The population already switched to right wing cause of this idiots. So the real thread we are facing (and this is most likely) is that our society will remove many of the real progress we made in equality during the alst decades. Cause thanks to the SJW idiots all this progress appears now as something stupid. Thanks, dear idiotic SJWs everywhere to destroy everything that was reached during the last decades.

[–] janelsenor (2048) 7 years ago

For Star Wars TLJ though, many of the issues are not in dispute:

- Retroactively ruining any significance the OT had
- Flagrantly unlikable characters, ridden with flaws and emotional vanity
- Bizarre, not-subtle politicizing with females being hyper-alphas and males being drooling morons or simply evil*
- Plotting failures that have little buildup and ultimately lead nowhere.
- Merchandise advertising being thrown in your face. Look at the cute Porgs! Crystal Critters! Buy 2 for 1 at Toys-R-Us now!

Are you claiming these points are indisputable?

[–] SyphiliticHobbit (367) 7 years ago

I am.

There is no counterargument to the OT being ruined. Its accomplishments rendered less than moot. These are facts, not opinions. Likewise the male/female dichotomy. Or the plots that ultimately lead nowhere. Ditto the advertisements.

The only point I'd accept an argument with is unlikable characters, I guess. YMMV.

[–] janelsenor (2048) 7 years ago

lol

[–] grindovermatter (380) 7 years ago

I disagree with every "fact" except the advertisements, but that's nothing new to Star Wars at all. The toy sale angle has been there since day one.

[–] LetThemEatCake (2717) 7 years ago

I don't give a fuck about men and your post is just fanboy complaining, however the film is indeed terrible, technically, so it's not subjective at all, and I find it astonishing the divide between the press and the general public. The general public hates the current state of cinema, believe it or not.

[–] SyphiliticHobbit (367) 7 years ago

I don't care about men stuff either, cake. My point being it isn't arguable that the male characters here are categorically deeply flawed, broken, and/or evil -- whereas the female characters are brave, strong, righteous, and/or alpha leaders. That's all I was saying.

[–] Buttholio (198) 7 years ago

At this point I wonder if a lot of it is just people reacting to the reaction. Like, "LOL Star Wars nerds are butthurt, let's pile on and kick 'em while they're down!" Or people who just never liked Star Wars so are happy to be told it was evil all along and its destruction is some great victory for progressivism. I honestly think a lot of the people saying they "like" this movie are just doing it to take a contrary position to the supposedly evil backwards mysogynistic Star Wars nerds or whatever. That's actually a more generous interpretation than that their critical faculties are so atrophied they can't see what an objectively vile piece of crap this movie is.

[–] Renovatio (2990) 7 years ago

A lot of truth in that

[–] MagneticMonopole (286) 7 years ago

"For Star Wars TLJ though, many of the issues are not in dispute. . ."

What a joke of a claim. The first three "issues" aren't even remotely reasonable complaints. The only one that you could make a strong case for is "Plotting failures that have little buildup and ultimately lead nowhere" (i.e., the gambling planet plot), and I've even read some intelligent defense of THAT.

[–] SyphiliticHobbit (367) 7 years ago

Thank you for your response.

Please argue how the legacy and accomplishments of the OT aren't ruined.

Please speak to the differences between the female and male characters, particularly Luke and Leah.

[–] MagneticMonopole (286) 7 years ago

"Please argue how the legacy and accomplishments of the OT aren't ruined. "

Please articulate how they are and why anyone should share your views. It is up to you--this is your thread based on your assertions.

"Please speak to the differences between the female and male characters, particularly Luke and Leah."

All I need to say is that if the genders of all the characters were swapped there is a 100% guarantee you wouldn't have seen an agenda of any kind, because all would have been right in your world. No rational, mentally balanced, un-sexist person has the slightest issue with how gender was treated in the latest Star Wars films.

[–] Arghhhh (804) 7 years ago

Well when it comes to these things nothing is truly objective but I get your point. What is really mind blowing to me is the near uniformity of the critical praise both for this and TFA. If one critic is 'wrong', fine, a few, whatever but when they all toe the line to praise films millions of people have severe issues with you have to wonder what the fuck is going on. Is it the masons? The shriners?

But then who even are film critics? A bunch of bloggers and failed journalists (which is saying something considering the state of journalism). Fuck em. Don't give them clicks and don't give Disney a penny.

[–] SyphiliticHobbit (367) 7 years ago

I'm not trying to be snarky when I say objective. They really are, though. I think some people are getting offended because deep down (maybe even subconsciously) they don't care about things like plotting or characterization in a Star Wars movie. Or the fact that the original trilogy's legacy and accomplishments were effectively given the middle finger. I think in the moment, at the theater, they had a good time and don't want people pulling the carpet back and turning the flashlight on.

Even Leah, who is a strong character here and fan favorite -- has been fighting the same ghastly war for 30 years and lived just long enough to see everything and everyone she loved die. I mean come on.

[–] Arghhhh (804) 7 years ago

I agree with all your points but these things can't be objectively measured. We can't get the weighing scales out and measure how much shit there is in TLJ...

But this is just semantics.

[–] SMUPony (20) 7 years ago

"We can't get the weighing scales out and measure how much shit there is in TLJ..."

Only because there are no scales big enough, nor that could handle that much weight ;)

[–] crc32 (2584) 7 years ago

you need to brush up on what objective vs subjective.

[–] janelsenor (2048) 7 years ago

You can't really have a discussion with someone who's initial premise is such nonsense.

[–] SyphiliticHobbit (367) 7 years ago

Hurtful.

[–] crc32 (2584) 7 years ago

Yea thats right up there with making unscrupulous accusations against his mother.