MovieChat Forums > Star Wars: Episode VII - The Force Awakens (2015) Discussion > One question no Rey-bashing "Mary Sue pa...

One question no Rey-bashing "Mary Sue parrot" can ever answer

posted 7 years ago by Frogarama (12942)
32 replies | jump to latest

Let's just pretend that we know Rey's backstory, and ASSUME she has never had any experience with The Force before this movie (despite the fact that there are major allusions in TFA to her having experience with it in her childhood, I mean the movie shows her having blocked memories right there).

So we look at three generations of Star Wars main characters: Anakin, Luke, and Rey.

Anakin began training at 9 years old, which was still supposedly too late. Ten years later, he is a powerful Jedi, BUT STILL TRAINING.

Luke's "Jedi development" was absolutely miraculous compared to Anakin, as Luke had negligible training that started at 18 years old. Kenobi "trained" him for literally minutes, and then three years later, Luke trained with Yoda (only concentration techniques, Force lifting and exercise) for AT MOST two to three days. DESPITE no one being around to practice lightsaber sparring with, AND receiving zero lightsaber fight training from Ben or Yoda, Luke was able to defeat Vader in their second fight... and Vader had THIRTY YEARS of training and lightsaber experience on Luke, at minimum.

Also, Vader hadn't been shot in the gut by a powerful weapon and hadn't been cut in the shoulder by someone else before his fight with Luke, unlike Kylo in his fight with Rey. This has to be pointed out yet again because you bashers LOVE to strip away all context... I guess I should also toss in that Kylo is simply NOT Darth Vader and he knows he's not as powerful. So, Kylo was kept at bay by THREE people: Chewbacca, Finn, and then Rey... NOT just Rey alone. I also have to point out, yet again, that Kylo was also offering to train Rey and was not trying to defeat her. I'm also still trying to find the criticism of Finn for being able to hold his own against Kylo for even a few minutes AND being able to get in a hit, even though Kylo was in fact trying to defeat Finn, and Finn has no Force sensitivity that we know of. Problem is, I don't see it anywhere, the bashers just focus on Rey.

Let's also not forget that Luke didn't NEED to fight Vader one-on-one at any point before Empire Strikes Back... Although Vader could already sense Luke's power in the Death Star trench years beforehand.

So here's the question: Given this jump in development speed from Anakin's generation to the next, why should Rey be RESTRICTED (in your argument) from her development being potentially faster than Luke's? Why is it REQUIRED for her to develop slower than or exactly equally to Luke? Again, this question is assuming she is actually developing faster than Luke, which we don't know yet.

Where does your anger over Rey really come from? Once you understand this and admit to yourself why you doggedly pursue and criticize Rey with a term that specifies her gender ("Mary Sue") you may even begin to admit to yourself why this has become such a crusade for you.

But I don't expect any of you bashers to admit it here.

[–] TexasJack (12516) 7 years ago

When you counter every argument made on this topic with "liar! just admit you're a sexist!", why would anyone bother engaging anymore? You argue in bad faith.

[–] Frogarama (12942) 7 years ago

I only call out actual lies, and I point them out specifically. Your statement is dishonest.

Also, I am pretty certain I've never said anything close to "just admit you're a sexist." So both elements of your statement are incorrect (but feel free to prove me wrong, please!)

Want to talk about bad faith? You've just exhibited it.

Anyway, back to the topic: Do you have any real reason why it would be "wrong" for Rey to, theoretically, develop skills faster than Luke? A reason that would preclude it being wrong for Luke to develop at such a miraculous pace compared to Vader?

Any input on that at all, or would you rather just post another disingenuous complaint about me that requires dishonesty and exaggeration?

[–] Otter (24464) 7 years ago

Correct. Luke's progress with Jedi is so insanely rapid compared to the extended training we saw in the prequels, that I've always told myself that he had more training than we saw on screen. That the first trip in the Falcon took days rather than minutes, that he went back to Dagobah between TESM and ROTJ, and that Force Ghost Obi-Wan was speed-training him in his dreams a la Doctor Strange. But that's just me, there's absolutely nothing in the official canon to support anything but Luke becoming a full-blown Jedi with about three days of real training.

So if Luke can learn that fast in spite of seeming to be a bit dim, there's nothing implausible at all about Rey picking up a few tricks with no training! At least she's heard of the Force, which is more than Luke had.

PS: And yes, she didn't defeat Darth Emo, she got away from him.

[–] Frogarama (12942) 7 years ago

And then of course will come the claims that she's "too perfect" and yet:

1. She had a mindless attachment to staying on Jakku and waiting for her "family" even though she's been there for 14 years with no results.

2. She almost got Finn killed (as well as herself and Han, really) when she accidentally released the Rathars. Also this put Han's ship and the Falcon at risk. Han had to ditch his entire ship because of this.

3. She wandered off from the group at Maz's castle, then got hunted down and easily captured by Kylo. This caused others to have to try to save her, which was an unnecessary distraction while trying to destroy Starkiller Base.

4. When facing Kylo in the saber fight, despite her skills defending herself with a staff, she attempted a basic forward thrust attack over and over, which proved useless. Just watch how long it takes her to try a different attack in that fight.

5. She had no place in helping bring down Starkiller Base. If she was truly perfect, she wouldn't have even been there. If you want to see a character who is far more "perfect," look no further than Poe Dameron, yet there is no complaint about him.

=)

[–] mxpowers43 (367) 7 years ago

"1. She had a mindless attachment to staying on Jakku and waiting for her "family" even though she's been there for 14 years with no results."

How is this a character flaw?

"2. She almost got Finn killed (as well as herself and Han, really) when she accidentally released the Rathars. Also this put Han's ship and the Falcon at risk. Han had to ditch his entire ship because of this."

Not only does she immediately fix this a save Finn. This mistake saved them all from the space pirates. Not much of a mistake when it saves the day for them all. Not even her screw up could actually cause a negative consequence.

"3. She wandered off from the group at Maz's castle, then got hunted down and easily captured by Kylo. This caused others to have to try to save her, which was an unnecessary distraction while trying to destroy Starkiller Base."

The only reason Finn even agree to go is to save Rey. The only reason Rey is captured is so that 1. it gives Finn the reason and 2. so she can out force mind power Kylo and self learn the mind trick. Her mistakes seem to have a pattern of amounting to zero negative consequences.

"4. When facing Kylo in the saber fight, despite her skills defending herself with a staff, she attempted a basic forward thrust attack over and over, which proved useless. "

So she is struggling until she completely annihilates him once she actually starts using the force. So she was holding off a trained force user without even using the force? Yup still not seeing any signs of imperfection.

"5. She had no place in helping bring down Starkiller Base. If she was truly perfect, she wouldn't have even been there. If you want to see a character who is far more "perfect," look no further than Poe Dameron, yet there is no complaint about him."

Except the whole reason Finn was there was for Rey and she was the focus of the whole thing more than any other character. Poe sucked too but he wasn't the focus of the film.

[–] mxpowers43 (367) 7 years ago

"So if Luke can learn that fast in spite of seeming to be a bit dim, there's nothing implausible at all about Rey picking up a few tricks with no training! At least she's heard of the Force, which is more than Luke had."

Luke = Some one screen training and suggestion of self teaching between films

Rey = literally zero (0), none, zilch, no on screen training or instruction whatsoever. And Only speculative evidence to 'forgotten' training.

She heard the force. Luke said "i can feel the force". I think the latter means more.

"PS: And yes, she didn't defeat Darth Emo, she got away from him."

WTF are you high? He was totally defeated. Cute down humiliated, disarmed and slashed across the face. There is literally no realm in existence in which this is not a defeat.

It is hard to take your defensive arguments seriously when 1. you come up with this pathetic level of straw man that 2. are propagated by others that just want to pat each other on the back at how woke you are for defending a female character for no other reason then you think women are weak and need your defense.

[–] Otter (24464) 7 years ago

I only have a minute but I want to make two points about training:

1) if Luke can become a full-blown Jedi with three days of apparent training, and become the best pilot in the rebel fleet because he flew an old crop-duster back home, then it's canon that training isn't important!

2) sometimes people really can do stuff without official training. In real life, I once went to the home if a lady who had a concert harp, and I asked if I could fool around with it because I'd never touched a harp before. So I sat at the stool and strummed the strings because it sounds nice, and then I looked hard at the strings and NEEVER GAVING TOUCHED A HARP BEFORE, played a simple piano piece I'd learned for the piano. The harpist was stunned, she had never seen anyone play actual music on a harp without training, but since I could see the similarities between the harp and the piano I could do it.

So yes, I can believe that someone who's spent years fighting with a quarterstaff might be able to handle a sword with no training, at least, that seems more likely than someone being able to fly an x-wing as well as they fly their uncle's old farm equipment

Gotta go.

[–] mxpowers43 (367) 7 years ago

"1) if Luke can become a full-blown Jedi with three days of apparent training, and become the best pilot in the rebel fleet because he flew an old crop-duster back home, then it's canon that training isn't important!"

In what way did look become a jedi in 3 days? he does not become one until the very end of ROTJ and that is I think 7 years after the story began. It is safe to assume he was doing at least some self teachings between the films. And yet even with Obi-Wan short lessons he does not ever use a full force ability. It never goes beyond reflexes and intuition. This is directly contrast to Rey whom uses basically every force power and ability that is available and known. It is likely they will come up with an explanation that she was taught but lost her memory, but even it the explanation works it is going to feel so tacky.

" and become the best pilot in the rebel fleet because he flew an old crop-duster back home, then it's canon that training isn't important!"

When did anyone say he was the best pilot in the rebel fleet? In ANH hope he almost crashes once, is nearly shot down twice and relied heavily on R2 to make up for he lack of knowledge. He knew enough to do alright and got lucky to be the one to make the last shot, because other better pilots sacrificed themselves for him and saved his life. It was not a crop-duster back home; the T-16 was an sports like space craft used for recreation and probably tournaments. the film suggest that the controls are similar enough to the x-wing for Luke to get away with doing alright, and he does barely do alright. Luke is just not as impressive as you all make him out to be in ANH in order to deflect the criticism from Rey and the fact they basically make her God.

your real life example is terrible. The person had training in music, that is usually enough for more gifted individuals to be able to apply the music to other instruments even ones they have not used before.

[–] Otter (24464) 7 years ago

It's absolutely true that training not being important is canon. We see Luke train for an hour or two with Ben and spend a couple of days max with Yoda, and boom suddenly he's a full-blown jedi. We see him becoming a fighter pilot engaging in dogfights with experts and with NO visible training and no time for any, and with no experience other than bullseyeing womp-rats with some old junker. Plus we see Anakin building sentient androids and piloting pod-racers at an age when humans lack good hand-eye coordination, and Padme and Leia becoming widely respected galactic leaders who can act as generals or hold their own in combat or even pick locks... at an age when most humans have trouble writing a two-page paper. So yes, it's canon that some people in the Star Wars universe are able to do amazing things with much less training than real people, or none at all.

And if you don't grasp that, or if you don't see that the original trilogy included many unrealistic or derivative or Mary-Sue-ish elements, then you don't understand the original trilogy or what made it so great. I really need to stop engaging with you lot for my own peace of mind, you can see the same thing a thousand times and refuse to understand it. And by that, I mean that most of the things that annoyed you about TFA were copied from the source material, they just weren't done in a way that appealed to you.

[–] mxpowers43 (367) 7 years ago

"It's absolutely true that training not being important is canon. We see Luke train for an hour or two with Ben and spend a couple of days max with Yoda, and boom suddenly he's a full-blown jedi. "

You must have watched a different movie, the one I watched was after training with Obi-Wan he had not one force ability and 3 years later was barely able to force pull the lightsaber before training with Yoda. AFter training with Yoda we see him get toyed with and easily bested by Vader. remind me again how much training Rey got. It is nice to just make up absolutes whenever we feel like it. No need to argue when you can just assume your take on a particular thing is "absolutely true".

[–] mxpowers43 (367) 7 years ago

"So here's the question: Given this jump in development speed from Anakin's generation to the next, why should Rey be RESTRICTED (in your argument) from her development being potentially faster than Luke's? Why is it REQUIRED for her to develop slower than or exactly equally to Luke? Again, this question is assuming she is actually developing faster than Luke, which we don't know yet."

Because she had zero onscreen training and instruction and therefore her growth appears unearned. Luke does not utilize a single force power until the second film. Same with Anakin and anakin was even over powered and borderline Mary Sue. I actually agree with the argument that Anakin was a Mary Sue and he is no where near the level Rey was. It is not about the level at which she develops. It is about how the development is depicted. It feels forced without actual character development and therefore unearned.

"Where does your anger over Rey really come from? "

From the incredible crappy writing that ruined the potential of franchise, maybe?

" Once you understand this and admit to yourself why you doggedly pursue and criticize Rey with a term that specifies her gender ("Mary Sue") "

God with people like you I want to slam your head on a table. "Mary Sue" IS GENDER NEUTRAL. That is why I say Anakin was a Mary Sue and so is Dominic Turrito (Fast +Furious) IMO.

Tell me this, if I am sexist and just hate female leads in Action roles how can I like Furiousa, Selene (underworld), Ripley, Sarah Connor, Leeloo, Brienne of Tarth, The Bride (Kill Bill), Hit Girl (Kick-Ass), Black Widow, that's all I can think of off the top of my head? All female action leads that are among my favorite movie/TV characters. How does you perfect argument deal with this contradiction?

[–] Bubbathegut (18105) 7 years ago

Luke was the complete opposite of a Mary Sue. He gets his ass kicked twice in Star Wars, needing Kenobi to save him both times (unlike Mary Sue Rey, a little girl who magically fights like Chuck Norris, beating up multiple grown men at once, with ease [LOL!]). He almost gets his ass kicked again by Chewbacca, because Chewbacca doesn't like/trust him (unlike a Mary Sue, who is loved by everyone). Han Solo smacks Luke's hand as though he's a little kid, when he points at once of the controls on the Millennium Falcon, because he doesn't like Luke much either for much of the movie. Leia makes fun of Luke being short. Luke is whiny, which is a character flaw. Luke didn't accomplish anything in Star Wars without help.

Wedge: That's impossible! Even for a computer.

Luke: It's not impossible. I used to bullseye womp rats in my T-16 back home, they're not much bigger than two meters.

The force helped him slightly refine a skill he already had; it didn't give him a brand new skill from scratch. Also, he had to be told, TWICE, to use the force, by Kenobi's ghost. Left to his own devices he presumably would have failed, because he was determined to use the targeting computer.

Biggs: Sir, Luke is the best bush pilot in the Outer Rim Territories.

Biggs vouched for Luke, which means Biggs knew that Luke's existing piloting experience (in a T-16) was applicable to piloting an X-wing. Also, he's not better than anyone. He almost crashes ("I got a little cooked but I'm okay"), and is about a millisecond away from being blown up by Vader until Han saves his ass.

[–] TheUltimateHippo (2250) 7 years ago

If Phantom Menace was the only Star Wars movie that existed in 1999 then yes Anakin would have been a Mary Sue at the time. (even though he just barely won the pod race. I have a feeling if Rey had been in the pod race she would have lead from beginning to end and no one would have even challenged her.) However but since we know that things are not going to work out for him and he is going to become the second most evil man in the galaxy it works because we are able to see that Anakin was once a happy little kid who gradually fell into evil and darkness.

We have no idea how long Luke was on Dagobah and it took Luke 2 movies before he was even remotely competent with the force and even then he still messed up like how he failed to use the mind trick on Jabba and how he ended up in the Rancor pit and just barely came out on top. Luke did eventually win in the end but it took a ton of goddamn effort, Rey can do 5 times what Luke can without even breaking a sweat.

Rey however is already a master of the force just hours (minutes in movie time) after she discovered that she even had the force, she is also the best shot, she is also the best pilot, she can speak droid and wookie (something only 3PO and Han were able to do) and she is also a better swordsman than a character who we are supposed to believe was trained under Luke Skywalker.

Rey is the textbook definition of a Mary Sue, Luke and Anakin were not. If you have to justify a bad character by pointing to what you think are other bad characters then that is proof that your argument is one big pile of sh!t just like this movie.

[–] Otter (24464) 7 years ago

Arguing about details doesn't get us to the heart of the matter. The heart of the matter can be summed up in one question: Given a fantasy universe where heightened abilities are commonplace and superpowers a given, why do some people get so obsessively angry over the sight of a female with Force powers that they've spent two years obsessively raging about it?

Because two years if constantly expressing anger isn't normal, even for a total geek. Or for someone who's heard all those "Anger is the path to the Dark Side" lectures a bazillion times.

A normal response to a bad film or a perceived canon violation would be somewhere between dismissiveness or annoyance, not two years of raging against a character, rather than the filmmakers or George Lucas and his four billion dollars. Come on guys, look deep into your own hearts and find the real source of your anger, why you seem to feel you've suffered an outrageous you can't let go. Because believe me, the real reason isn't a belief that they got the details of Jedi training ng wrong.

[–] Bubbathegut (18105) 7 years ago

If they would have wrote this movie like a normal star wars movie then we wouldn't be having this problem. Both Lucas trilogies show character development through 3 movies. When you jump ahead and don't explain anything or have any exposition that is when star wars fans freak out.

[–] Otter (24464) 7 years ago

That's not a valid reason for years of frothing, obsessive anger.

The normal and sane response to a disappointing or poorly made movie is to walk out of the theater grumbling about twelve bucks you'll never see again, and not buying the DVD. Anyone who's still ranting about it years later is a few beers short of a six-pack.

[–] Bubbathegut (18105) 7 years ago

Your right, its not a good reason, but some people just can't let it go and keep bringing it up.

[–] Otter (24464) 7 years ago

Yeah, it really is insane.

So I'm trying to troll them in Dr. Freud mode, get them to think about their motivations. To think about why their anger is so intense and endless, and why it always takes the form of bashing one character - rather than the writers or the director or Disney or anything. Funny about how they obsessively hate Rey and not J.J. Abrams. Funny about that.

[–] SimpleMovieCommenter (21) 7 years ago

The reason for continuing years of anger is because the problem of Rey is simply that BIG and because I love Star Wars a lot. Rey is a LONG-TERM problem that will continue to affect Star Wars.

Nobody ever merely complained about a female with Force powers. Nobody complained about Mara Jade, or Jaina Solo, or Aayla Secura, or Bastila Shan, or a female Revan.

The problem is Rey's background and "development" just doesn't justify her abilities. Precedence and consistency have been thrown out.

Why would I not also hate JJ Abrams for this? I do. After all he's the director. And I also hate his damn Mystery Box which he inflicted on Star Wars. I also hate Kathleen Kennedy for obsessing about making a "strong female character" movie first and a Star Wars movie second.

[–] Otter (24464) 7 years ago

Being angry for years about Rey's lack if background and development isn't rational. Luke's background was explained over six films rather than in the first one, Obi-Wan and Yoda have zero background other than being known Jedis, and Anakin's background is still a great big WTF!!!. I mean, if a lack if logic and internal cohesiveness bothers you, why haven't you spent the last decade raging about a freaking virgin birth being thrown into the Star Wars universe? It's FAR more out of place than mere Force use!

So really, dig deep and think calmly, not in a spirit if anger, for as we all know anger is the path to the dark side. What's really bothering you, way down deep?

[–] TheUltimateHippo (2250) 7 years ago

Really so we aren't allowed to have a complaint about this movie? I thought that was the point of the message board. I didn't realize we all had to say positive things. Rey is a poorly written, politically correct Mary Sue, you cannot deny that.

[–] Otter (24464) 7 years ago

And again the hate is directed at the character of Rey, not at Abrams or the writers or Daisy Ridley or the film as a whole. Or at Carrie Fisher's plastic surgeon, for that matter, talk about the worst single contribution to that film!

Very interesting, very very interesting, that the hate is always directed at just Rey. So lie down on the couch and tell ze good doctor how you feel about your mother...

[–] TheUltimateHippo (2250) 7 years ago

Uh yeah because I hate the character, I don't think I ever once blamed Daisy Ridley, she just did what she was told to do just like how Jake Lloyd just did what he was told to do. She is a poorly written character and she is a Mary Sue.

If it makes you feel any better all of my issues with Rey come down to the way she was written.

[–] SimpleMovieCommenter (21) 7 years ago

Your argument has some pretty poor presumptions:

1) You assume Kenobi trained Luke for literally minutes. Have you never ever heard of scene time compression? Do you not recall that the Falcon went into hyperspace, we are treated to the Death Star blowing up Alderaan scene and then we transition back to the Falcon? Hours or even a whole day could've passed by the time the movie transitioned back to the Falcon. Its obvious that Luke and company spent a hell of a lot more time than "minutes".
3 years later, yes, Luke trained with Yoda for perhaps a few days. But during that 3 years, Luke was also a REBEL SOLDIER. Its easy to reason that he gained combat experience, that he trained in melee dueling using Rebel resources and sparring partners, that he practiced on the Force.
And then by the beginning of ROTJ, 6 months have passed, in which Luke had doubtlessly been training more and more with MASTER YODA, including improving lightsaber skill. And remember, during the second duel, Vader was arguably conflicted about his son, and Luke drew on the Dark Side to win.
Rey doesn't have anything CLOSE to that. And by the end of the FIRST movie of a new trilogy WITHOUT any real development in a SINGLE DAY, she has already defeated a powerful Force User main villain AT HIS OWN GAME.

2) Yes Kylo Ren was shot in the gut, but for the majority of the duel, he and the movie pretty much behaves as if the wound doesn't really affect or slow him down at all. He takes his sweet time toying with Finn and contemptuously displaying his skill and physical strength by actually overpowering Finn. And he pretty much dominates Rey in a proper duel, again not really displaying that his wound affects him in any way.
SO WHAT if he's not Darth Vader? He's still a Dark Jedi with 10 years of training and experience under Luke and Snoke and he also fought and killed Luke's Jedi. He still has FAR MORE training and experience than Rey.

--->to be continued

[–] SimpleMovieCommenter (21) 7 years ago

2) And actually, why the hell didn't he just use the Force to knock her out or freeze her in place? And as for Finn, I think its because he got his ass kicked and defeated. Because if a soldier who probably has formal melee training got his ass kicked, than how the fuck is a starving scavenger from Jakku supposed to do better?

3) "Let's also not forget that Luke didn't NEED to fight Vader one-on-one at any point before Empire Strikes Back... Although Vader could already sense Luke's power in the Death Star trench years beforehand."

I don't understand this point. And Vader sensed Luke's power in the Death, so what? Luke is Force-Sensitive, thats all.

4) She totally did develop faster than Luke. In a DAY. She needed a more proper development because otherwise she becomes absurd.

5) My anger over Rey is because she is a POORLY-WRITTEN character and she's getting rewarded for it. And get over the term "Mary Sue". There's also the "Gary Stu", like the TV version of Ramsay Bolton, which most people agree over.
So, sorry to disappoint you but I don't hate strong female characters because they're female. Otherwise, I would hate characters like Leia, Xena, Sarah Connor, Charlie's Angels, Lara Croft, Furiosa. Hell, even Jyn Erso was better written than Rey.

[–] TexasJack (12516) 7 years ago

Luke trained with Yoda for perhaps a few days.

I think it was months. There is nothing in the movie that proves any particular timeframe, but it stands to reason that Luke was on Dagobah for quite a while --

1) his skills improve dramatically
2) Han & co. had to get to Bespin without their hyperdrive. It could have easily taken months to reach another planet at sublight speeds.

[–] TheUltimateHippo (2250) 7 years ago

Why do Rey defenders always have to point to other films? What's the matter, can't TFA stand on its own?

[–] TexasJack (12516) 7 years ago

Who’s defending Rey? Not me.

[–] TheUltimateHippo (2250) 7 years ago

[deleted]

[–] TexasJack (12516) 7 years ago

I’ve said that many times. You got me mixed up with someone else. We’re both on the “TFA sucked” team.

[–] TheUltimateHippo (2250) 7 years ago

Oh my bad I got confused, I wasn't suggesting that you were defending Rey I was rhetorically asking why the defenders always justify TFA by pointing to dumb moments in other movies. My apologies I didn't go back and read my previous posts and I simply forgot who said what.

[–] Conan1982 (53) 7 years ago

I don't have all the answers but I know who's fault it is : the prequels and their fan-base.

Every problem in Star Wars comes from them.