Rey is a Mary Sue.


Name one character trait of hers that isn't "good at everything". Seriously, try.

She mastered flight, Jedi Force skills, lightsaber forms, how to operate and repair antique ships, and beat trained Jedi-types at lightsaber and Force combat by the time she was 5 and dumped on jakkoff.

Is she an anime character?

She doesn't have a character arc, has no presence in the movie, is completely flat yet is also perfect in every way. Oh, and not to mention that everyone loves her, and the Resistance trusts her with a sensitive mission and details within 5 minutes of meeting her.

I hope we see less of her and more of Kylo or Finn

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The Force is strong with you. But you still got a lot to learn my young Padawan, especially about drafting properly formulated assessments under writing theory. First lesson: there are is no Mary Sueism in real life, just in badly written movies! Let an old Master teach you how to conveniently copy and paste the ways of the Force a la Disney; and how the Force really does not work:


"Spotlight stealing": Rey is instantly loved, admired and desired by everybody including enemies (BB-8, Finn, Han, Chewie, Kylo Ren, Snoke etc), even when this compromises story logic and character backgrounds. Examples:
-Leia hugs the complete stranger Rey after the death of Han (and supposed death of her son at Rey’s hand) while old friends Chewie and Leia completely ignore each other (JJ already admitted the mistake). This is classic Sue writing: only the Sue’s POV counts, the fact that Leia and Chewie are old friends and the emotional link to Han and always hugged before (carbonite scene etc) is irrelevant;
- Rey takes-over the captain and piloting position on the MF after Han dies (she sits in the pilot seat) – Chewie the 600y Wookie remains the copilot on his own ship of a 19y old woman they just met a few hours before (Sues start at the top);
- Rey the scavenger is sent on the most important Resistance mission to find Luke - but not his sister Leia (who “desperately” was looking for him) or other resistance fighters who know Luke! Rey walks up the island, Luke’s old friends Chewie and R2-D2 mysteriously stay back waiting with the ship (Sue is center). The mission was to bring Luke back, not to send him somebody who he can train there on the island.
-debatable: Kylo removes helmet before Rey, though from the narrative POV it would have made sense that he only shows his face to Han (Sue is center);
- even light sabers and dead OLD MASTERS (Yoda, Obi Wan) call out to Rey, this never happened before with any other Jedi (even “Space Jesus” Anakin) - demonstrating how special Rey is.

"Better than You"/ "Copycat" Sue: Rey regularly bests other character at their game, or rescues them and/or drains competence from them, thus compromising story and character backgrounds. Examples:
- The lifelong soldier Finn looks incompetent and foolish next to Rey (fighting, piloting, languages, Starkiller security and mechanical stuff), is beaten by her, and must be rescued by her many times.
-The main antagonist Kylo Ren, the 30 year old Master of the Ren (and Jedi killer), who is established as very powerful, is beaten, maimed and emasculated (broken saber) by Rey physically and on mind-level several times – all that despite of Rey having no proper Force or sword fighting training. He finally has to be rescued by a deus ex machina plot device (opening chasm) to be save from her.
- Rey constantly advises and bests Han (and Finn) with mechanical and engineering ingenuity regarding Han’s own ship, driving him to angrily leaving the cockpit ("Away Ball") and resulting in him offering her a job quickly.
- Rey also replaces C-3PO as a translator, BB-8 seems completely useless because Rey does all the mechanics and engineering to repair and improve the falcon.

God Mode Sue” Rey has ad hoc abilities and powers, whenever the story needs her to look good, despite her story background of being a lowly, starving scavenger struggling to survive. Characters speak of her as if she was the second coming (Kylo: “She gets more powerful every moment”). Examples:
-Rey has sudden force abilities on Master-level (mind trick, telekinesis, mind reading) that took Luke and other Jedi several movies to learn.
-She has amazing stunt piloting abilities with a bulky, unwieldy freighter (MF) and without a co-pilot (!) speeding and spinning thorough a graveyard and through a destroyer under heavy fire - without her having ever flown the MF before!,
-Rey has incredible aiming abilities, despite not having shot a blaster. She only misses one single shot, then blasts away all soldiers with one hit at a great distance.
-She can hit with the Falcon turret even when she is not sitting on the turret gun, but piloting the freighter (“How did you do that ? I don’t know!”),
- she speaks all languages of the aliens she accidently meets, including "binary droidspeak" (it was establishes in the OT that humans can’t do that - Luke never could except with cockpit translator); she even speaks Wookie though Wookies are not space travelers/are not seen on Jakku.
- She is an ace engineer ("I bypassed the compressor") and rocket science mechanic;
- Rey even knows how to disable the security system on the Starkiller base (“The girl knows her stuff”).
- Rey despite her frail, half-starved condition is a master climber with great spelunking abilities.
- Despite being set up as a starving lowly scavenger woman, Rey has unblemished looks (typical Sue trait): she is the only young, beautiful woman around; she wears make up and lipstick and sports impressively white teeth and a posh theater accent despite of her background in poverty .
- Rey has a mysterious background, indicating she is very special.
de gustibus non est disputandum

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[deleted]

Yes, I think most people don't notice it, because they will not emotionally accept that Han Solo is so blatantly and immediately replaced and Chewie going along with it (despite the fact the film is trolled us hard with setting that up: Rey is the super über-pilot, better at mechanics than Han, has his gun etc).

If Rey would have been a MALE, people would probably have picked it up quicker: "wut, that fückface a-hole kid now has Han's position...? Fück that sith!" Like with Indian Jones 4.

And fan-sh!tstorms would have hit the fan in under one parsec! It was a smart move making Rey a woman!
de gustibus non est disputandum

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Yes, I think most people don't notice it, because they will not emotionally accept that Han Solo is so blatantly and immediately replaced and Chewie going along with it


I think you'll find that most people do not subscribe to your preciously misplaced indignation and recognise that Chewbacca is what he has always been and will likely continue to be, a big hairy side-kick.

If Rey would have been a MALE, people would probably have picked it up quicker: "wut, that fückface a-hole kid now has Han's position...? Fück that sith!"


I don't think that many people are as spectacularly uptight about these spruious values which you have brought to the films and don't spontaneously come from the narrative or direction of any of them.

"Who can't use the Force now?! I can still use the Force!" - Yarael Poof

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I think you'll find that most people do not subscribe to your preciously misplaced indignation and recognize that Chewbacca is what he has always been and will likely continue to be, a big hairy side-kick.
Besides the point: for the story and characters to be believable Chewie of course should become captain of the MF; they can keep him a "hairy sidekick" as much as they want. I hope this is somehow established in Ep 8. If you do not see that you are truly lost, and far far gone. In this case, I dedicate to you a little dialog removed from the TFA scene: Han death scene in Act III (after Han is stabbed):

*Chewie finds Han's body on a ledge; Chewie bows over dying Han and holds him tenderly in his strong Wookie arms*
Han (spitting blood): Well buddy, that did not go as planned, did it?...Blast it, was not my kind of conversation anyway! Leia should have really done it...
* Chewie sighs Wookie style, as he worringly examines Han's saber wound*
Han: I feel terrible! Yeah, I know pal. He got me there, didn't want to go out that way, *in pain when trying to move* Argh, that little moof milking nerv herder, always said he is taking after Leia's side...*pointing at his stab wound* But that should at least be enough to fully disinherit him, right? *winks softly* From anything.
*Chewie growls angrily and shakes his hairy Wookie head*
Han: Listen pal, the girl, REY...I want you..I want you to look out for REY, understand me? I know you like her, huh? She, she is so...very special. Like a Corellian snowflake in rain, you know,...*with a slight grin sinking into memories* you remember that one, right pal?
*Chewie nods; Han is softly stroking hair from Chewie's face*
Listen, I don’t have much life left in me. I want REY...I want her to get the Falcon, okay? She is meant to have it... And I want you to serve her as you served me; you owe me that - life debt remember? That is all I ask from you...*weakly* Promise me that partner..?
*Chewie nods in agreement. Han coughs hard and spits some blood; Cheiw mumbles in Wookie*
I know. I know. Look to it that Leia and Lando do not get their hands on the Falcon; its my last will partner, can you do that for me..?
*Chewie growls desperately in an affirmative way*
Han: *smiling softly*
I wondered if you'd ever ask me that. No pal, she is not my daughter, though I wish she were...*very faintly speaking*
But Chewie, you must know one thing...there is...
*Chewie bows down to hear Han*
...there is another ...Ma...
*indestinctly whispering*
...Ma...Rey...Sue

HAN dies. He is truly dead; Rey inherits the MF by way of last will and testament. Chewie lifting his head howls mournfully.

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[deleted]

for the story and characters to be believable Chewie of course should become captain of the MF


Why? Is this in the sidekick union's contract?

I hope this is somehow established in Ep 8


Oh? From what I've heard, the fact that we've already seen Rey sitting in a particular seat at the end of Ep VII means that she is the Queen of the Falcon and Han's memory and Chewie's dignity have already been trampled on irrevocably.

If you do not see that you are truly lost, and far far gone.


What will we be calling him then? It can't be Captain Chewbacca. Does he even have a second name? How come Chewie never received a military rank like Han did in either ESB or ROTJ. I guess the series has been far far gone and lost for about thirty odd years now.

I hope maybe there is something in Episode VIII that allows people to get their panties untwisted about this. Before they become truly lost in their faux indignation.


"Who can't use the Force now?! I can still use the Force!" - Yarael Poof

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If Rey would have been a MALE, people would probably have picked it up quicker: "wut, that fückface a-hole kid now has Han's position...? Fück that sith!" Like with Indian Jones 4.

Thank you. I agree fully.

Rey's gender is a great asset that protects her from criticism. And before people start labeling me as a basement dwelling manbaby that hates women, I initially liked the Rey character when I first watched this film and had an iffy reaction when I saw people referring to her as a "Mary Sue" on online forums. I had to be convinced to change my opinion on the character.

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CONVINCED TO CHANGE YOUR OPINION...WOW.

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all hail jedan

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I guess that means Leia took over the captain and piloting position in Empire (she sits in the pilot seat). Interestingly enough Chewie is still flying the Falcon from his "co-pilot chair".

Pilot and co-pilot seat are classifications that originated in commercial airliners on Earth how does that even apply to a private space ship in a galaxy far far away?

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[deleted]

a) It would be natural for Leia to command the Falcon given her senior leadership in the rebellion and everything her and Han have been through for years. Rey is a noob and there's no reason for her to suddenly assume command of that ship.



So if you go on a road trip with a friend, one of you is "in command"? "I'M IN COMMAND OF THIS ROAD TRIP DON'T YOU FORGET IT!!!"

2) Rey looks as if she's flying the Falcon AND in full command at the end of TFA. Leia is in Han's seat but Chewie's flying that bad boy.


Again with the command thing. Does she command Chewie to do anything? She pretty much sits down they both flip a few switches and off they go. But hey yeah she's sitting in the left chair so she MUST be in command... No road trip without a commander!

d) At the end of TFA, Han's out the way for good. Han is still there in ESB in spirit, hence no reason for Chewie to suddenly take control of the ship. He thinks Leia's just keeping his seat warm and is happy to have a long term friend and comrade take his seat. No way he'd be that open to some noob like Rey with zero credentials or history with them suddenly take control of the MF.


Command control etc etc. Nowhere in the movie. Two friends taking a trip... But that can't be, can it?

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This complaint about Rey becoming captain doesn't make sense to me either. I figured that Chewie has inherited the Millennium Falcon after Han's death. Why can't he be the owner and continue in his usual seat performing the operational functions that he knows well.

"Firefly," in which Malcolm Reynolds was modeled after Han Solo, depicted the captain/owner hiring someone else to pilot the ship. Even if Rey takes over primary piloting duties, can't she still be an underling who recognizes Chewbacca's authoritative position on his newly acquired ship?

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well, the film unsubtly implies without putting it into words that Rey takes over Han's position. She

- gets his gun (like Luke's saber)
- she super stunt pilots the Falcon first time
- she is great at the turret tower while flying
- she miraculously understands the Wookie-tougue
- she knows the inside of the MF better then Han and corrects him
- she sits in the captain seat (not copilot)
- they fly on HER mission, where she leaves all of Luke family (Leia), allies (Resistance) and friends (Chewie, R2) BEHIND to meet him alone. Old friend do not count, they must guard stay with the ship - does not look they are in charge.

It is some of the most blatant Sue writing ever, as written by a narcissistic 12 year old child.

BUT you are right: this can still be undone. An we all should hope Johnson is smart enough to de-Sue Rey in the next one (he must!), including establishing Chewie is captain and maybe Rey his copilot until he dies.

There is a piece of deleted dialog somewhere her in the tread, showing Han's death scene.

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thank u sir tristan

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[deleted]

The Falcon is a freighter, not a warship. It's a private vessel. Nobody ever told Han "you can't leave with our warship!" now did they? A mission, huh? Like govermentally sanctioned? Please don't be ridiculous.

So no all of your imaginary rules don't apply, sorry.

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[deleted]

u know this not to be true

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Keep telling yourself that.

It's pretty sad that people have to create issues to get their knickers twisted about.

"Who can't use the Force now?! I can still use the Force!" - Yarael Poof

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Interesting?

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I hope someday to make the jump from Padawan to Jedi in training. Thank you for your continued effort regarding this matter.

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This is just pure gold mate :D

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Excellent post. Many of these examples are more subtle nuanced examples that I haven't read before.

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- Rey takes-over the captain and piloting position on the MF after Han dies (she sits in the pilot seat) – Chewie the 600y Wookie remains the copilot on his own ship of a 19y old woman they just met a few hours before
When was it ever Chewie's ship?

________________________
Anyone familiar with denial-of-service attacks, PM me.

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You are no lawyer are you? The language "His ship" is ambiguous and does not necessarily describe legal ownership, but might refer to mere legal possession of the Falcon (without being owner); Rey would disqualify here as she essentially stole it (nec vi, nec clam nec precarium). Maybe "his sip" describes even weaker forms of property holder-ship.

As for ownership of the Falcon: we do not know if the Falcon was fully owned by Han, or was subject to co-ownership by Chewie/Han. Also, we do not know Han's last will and testament, or - in lack thereof - the intestate and forced heirship rules in the SWU.

Han's death scene above does not count as it was deleted from the movie:
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt2488496/board/nest/261398397?d=261406712#261406712
So what makes you so sure Chewie was no (co-) owner? Do you suggest Wookies are not worthy or capable to inherit...?
de gustibus non est disputandum

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So what makes you so sure Chewie was no (co-) owner?
Didn't your first 2 paragraphs just answer for me?


________________________
Anyone familiar with denial-of-service attacks, PM me.

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here ya go froggy...

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is Rey still a Mary Sue, even though she is Sith Lord? even Sith's needed training from their Master.

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Lol, such a funny list. Kathleen Kennedy's work, no doubt.

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Geez, I realized I was being a bad master by preaching a sermon without addressing your queries, Bubba. Here we go:

Name one character trait of hers that isn't "good at everything". Seriously, try.
Well, she eats with an open mouth - thus sucks at table manners. She seems to be intellectually outstanding, but not very street smart: despite her outstanding abilities at everything like piloting, fighting, mechanics, languages, engineering etc, she still works as a lowly scavenger and seems to SUCK at her job, as she is obviously starving. Why would she stay on Jakku all her life, instead of - with all her gifts - actively searching for her parents?
Is she an anime character?
No, she is a live action character I believe; the CGI is so so-so (look at Snoke) that they could never pull that off without us noticing. But she is very much written in line of these anime and toon characters you speak of. Tellingly, e.g. Ashoka Tano learning curve and character development is much more realistic, despite being animated.
She doesn't have a character arc,
Many Sue characters have arcs. Many great characters do not. Rey has the same arc as Luke had in Act 1 of ANH, when his folks are killed and he decides to become a Jedi. Rey after being reluctant like Luke in the end does the same instead of "going nowhere" (staying a starving desert scavenger), she is moving forward. Or so I assume as the movie neglects to tell us why she is actually going there: maybe it's to bring Luke back as the Resistance had planned, or is it to train him, or to be his learner? All a mystery box.
has no presence in the movie
Well these movies are ensemble pieces, so no character should take completely over. And Rey very present at the end, with he beating Kylo, the Leia hug, becoming captain of the MF and Leia/Chewie becoming her cheerleaders, and Rey being sent on the most important mission.
is completely flat
Not completely, were you watching the same film? And is not of relevance, SW movies are not there to satisfy those needs.
yet is also perfect in every way.
There is no correlation between being flat and perfection. And there is no such thing as perfection anyway. But I agree she is too good to be true, and I found her character bland, like tasteless bubbly chewing gum pandering to a juvenile audience. Many pulp fiction characters suffer from that.

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[deleted]

so true, so true...

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Kylo and Finn are just as bad. They may not be OP like Rey but they are terribly written.

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Kylo is a young Bizzaro Luke and Finn is JarJar.

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At least Jar Jar wasnt a trained soldier.

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He was in the Gungan Army.

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I still think she is more Malcolm Crowe or Keyser Sose than Mary Sue.

I when I first came to that conclusion, I thought the storytellers would never get away with it. Stretching unreliable narration over multiple episodes of the story seemed inplausible, but as time passes, I see that people are pretty stuck on first opinions until proven otherwise. I think they are going to get away with it, and it will be pretty epic if they do.

We will see in the end. I could be wrong, and it won't bother me.

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nope, she is not a Sue; the is THE goddess of all Sues. She was created in their image, so we can pray to her at her altar.

Ya all just deal with it. Don't deny her name. And we all could finally move on.

PS: Disney please please don't make Finn a Sue in Ep VIII as compensation for the racial caricature he was in TFA. Same with Poe please. Make them gay, but no Sues anymore please, thanks...

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Rey is indeed the new Goddess of all Sues that ever were but you need not worry about Finn turning into a Sue to compensate for the bumbling, incompetent loser he was portrayed as in the first film. But no thanks to turning Poe into Finn's white gay slave master. He's already been emasculated enough and besides he was already fawning over Rey throughout the entire film only to get Finn zoned at every turn.

Search your feelings, you know it to be true. 
https://goo.gl/fZ0xWS


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the fact that she begins the film as a street urchin, and ends the film on a mission to recruit Luke Skywalker... Not sure if its fair to say she has no arc.

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[deleted]

In contrast to beginning the film as farm boy and ending as hero of the rebellion?

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Luke didn't even know what the flashing light was on the Falcon but yet Rey was super proficient in flying the Falcon for the very first time. Plus Han says "Flying though space ain't like dusting crops boy."


https://youtu.be/9k-941c-ZTc?t=187
proof

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And Anakin went from never finishing a pod race to winning one. Luke went from farm boy to savior of the galaxy. So what if Rey was super proficient at flying the Falcon? Get over it.

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Thats because Sebulba was always cheating. And it took Luke 3 movies to defeat the Empire with the help lots of people and furry little bears.

Rey was super proficient at flying the Falcon


I can't, its too late. Her mary sueness has been imprinted on millions of discs by now. At least we all agree now that Rey is near perfect.

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Luke in his first film saves the galaxy. Rey defeats an injured villain in training. Who is more Mary Sue?

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And let's not forget that Padme was a 14 year old girl who was the leader of her people and led a successful, daring mission to save them. No one was bothered by her Mary Sueness. Okay for her since she was neither the main protagonist nor a Jedi.

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Luke helped out in the destruction of the Death Star and he needed help every second of the way. He was the last resort because Red Leader failed and died. He almost died at least 3 times, one of which was his own fault for diving towards the surface and nearly not pulling up in time. He needed to be saved at least 3 times and he needed Obi-wan's basic crash course on the Force and Obi-wan's whispering in his ears. And Han Solo saving his ass literally.

Rey did near everything by herself. Kylo Ren being injured should've meant nothing because he was pretty much playing around with Finn before wiping the floor with him and Finn is a fvcking years-trained soldier compared to Rey. Kylo was still displaying full mobility and strength in both the fights and was pretty much overwhelming Rey. He has training and experience. Rey has no training or experience. He fought and killed Luke's entire Jedi Order. The only things Rey has fought are backwater bums with a bo-staff, which is not interchangeable with swordfighting a trained veteran Sith.

And Padme is nowhere near a May Sue. She's the goddamn Queen of Naboo and also simultaneously a disguised Handmaiden for the false queen. Royalty has access to training and resources in fighting and subterfeuge. And Padme didn't pretty much do it by herself. She needed her soldiers, the gungans, and the Jedi.

"Not all change is progress, as not all movement is forward."

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Yes, Rey needed help. Finn gets her out of danger twice on the surface of Jakku, and also gets her away from that rathtar. He also keeps Kylo Ren occupied while she recovers from being thrown against the tree. Then she and Finn are rescued by Chewie from certain death. So no, she doesn't do everything on her own.

Padme was elected Queen of Naboo, and she was just 14 years old. She then goes on to lead a heroic rescue of her people. How is that not Mary Sueish?

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Obi-Wan was there to guide him and tell him to use the Force. And you are forgetting Kylo was trained by Luke and Snoke. I would say he probably had 10 - 15 years of Jedi/Sith training. You are using his injury as a crutch, his injury was not the reason he lost.

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Obi-Wan was there to guide him and tell him to use the Force. And you are forgetting Kylo was trained by Luke and Snoke. I would say he probably had 10 - 15 years of Jedi/Sith training. You are using his injury as a crutch, his injury was not the reason he lost.


Ben Solo went to train with Luke at about the age of 23, six years before the events of TFA.

Yes, Obi Wan told Luke to use the Force. His instructions on how to use the Force was only a few sentences long, not much more than Maz' instructions to Rey.

Obi Wan and Maz indicated that the Force can control one's actions. The Force controlled Rey.

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Luke didn't fight with a lightsaber until his second movie and he lost. Anakin didn't fight with a lightsaber til his second movie and he lost. Rey fought and won in her first lightsaber battle in her first movie. This is just one of the reasons why people think Rey is a Mary Sue.

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Luke didn't fight with a lightsaber until his second movie and he lost. Anakin didn't fight with a lightsaber til his second movie and he lost. Rey fought and won in her first lightsaber battle in her first movie. This is just one of the reasons why people think Rey is a Mary Sue.


So? Rey didn't destroy Starkiller Base with a one in a million shot, nor did she take down a trade federation's base ship. Why should their accomplishments all be the same?

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Luke had Obi-Wan helping him and Anakin had R2-D2 helping him. If you watch the sequence Anakin has no idea what he is doing and accidentally flies into the control bay. Like I have said before, Luke and Anakin both had one movie for a backstory and exposition. Reys' first movie had no development of her character.

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Luke had Obi-Wan helping him


I wouldn't say he helped him so much as reminded him. 'Use the force Luke, let go Luke. Luke trust me' is hardly help. There's no instruction. We see in Empire Luke is quite sceptical of elements of The Force anyway. Others may not be. Rey had heard stories of Luke and the Jedi, thinking them myth, with Han confirming early in the film that its all true. Luke on the other hand, had never even heard of The Force until the day he was deflecting blast shots blindfolded and destroyed the Death Star with a seemingly impossible (at least to experienced skilled fighter pilots) shot.

If you watch the sequence Anakin has no idea what he is doing and accidentally flies into the control bay.


Anakin accidentally did the entire thing, from the lift off to the destruction of the trade station. That's a different thing to deal with altogether.

Like I have said before, Luke and Anakin both had one movie for a backstory and exposition. Reys' first movie had no development of her character.


Luke's exposition introduces the audience to The Force as much as Luke. This is the 7th Star Wars movie, not the first. We don't need to be reintroduced to The Force again. Anakin went through it because he was space Jesus and his exposition was to show us he's a Force messiah. Rey, at this point is meant to be partly a mystery, and she still goes from loner scavenger refusing to leave Jakku to resistance hero and potential protégé of Luke Skywalker.

That's about as much development as Luke got in his first movie in all fairness.

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What d_myerss said.

I don't know that Anakin's actions were all accidental. How does one accidentally destroy the control ship? Or maybe yet again he was using the Force without realizing it? Or the Force was controlling him?

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fail

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I wouldn't say he helped him so much as reminded him. 'Use the force Luke, let go Luke. Luke trust me' is hardly help. There's no instruction. We see in Empire Luke is quite sceptical of elements of The Force anyway. Others may not be. Rey had heard stories of Luke and the Jedi, thinking them myth, with Han confirming early in the film that its all true. Luke on the other hand, had never even heard of The Force until the day he was deflecting blast shots blindfolded and destroyed the Death Star with a seemingly impossible (at least to experienced skilled fighter pilots) shot.


At this point we still don't know how much Obi-Wan helped Luke. That is another can of worms that can be debated for years. And don't forget that Luke can bullseye womp rats.

Luke:
I used to bullseye womp rats in my T-16 back home. They're not much bigger than two meters.


Luke's exposition introduces the audience to The Force as much as Luke. This is the 7th Star Wars movie, not the first. We don't need to be reintroduced to The Force again. Anakin went through it because he was space Jesus and his exposition was to show us he's a Force messiah. Rey, at this point is meant to be partly a mystery, and she still goes from loner scavenger refusing to leave Jakku to resistance hero and potential protégé of Luke Skywalker.

That's about as much development as Luke got in his first movie in all fairness.


Yeah this is the 7th SW movie, but what if someone has not seen the previous six movies like a hundred times like most fans these days. Rey is a mystery and we don't know much about her or her backstory but it still doesn't explain all her skills. I am comparing all 3 characters first movie. Two are similar and one is not. Reys' backstory will not come until the 8th or 9th movie.

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At this point we still don't know how much Obi-Wan helped Luke. That is another can of worms that can be debated for years.


We know that Luke is practising with the saber and isn't doing any good with it, then Obi Wan blindfolds him, gives him a few words of encouragement, the most important confirming that The Force can partially guide your actions and also obey commands. No particular instruction is given other than to trust the force and his feelings essentially (not unlike Maz' words to Rey) and suddenly Luke is able to not only deflect the shots he previously couldn't, but deflects 3 shots in quick succession while blindfolded.

After that, they arrive at the destroyed Alderaan, end up on the Death Star and Obi Wan is killed. So whatever 'help' Luke got from Obi Wan off screen, it amounted to Luke being incapable of tackling the remote until he was given the 'stretch out with your feelings' talk, which Rey essentially also got.

The real issue is, that The Force is mysterious and always has been. Some people are naturally gifted than others, some take to training better than others, some are quick learners and so on.

Luke is one individual who's journey we saw. That doesn't make him the sole template. People saying stupid sht like 'it took Luke 3 films to learn the Jedi mind trick' there's no proof of that. We only ever saw him even attempt it in the third film. Who's to say that if he attempted to do it to a weak-minded Stormtrooper in A New Hope, he would have failed? Nobody. Who's to say that if Rey had attempted to blow up The Death Star after her awakening, that she would have succeeded? Nobody.

They are two individuals faced with different challenges with the force as their ally.

Luke:
I used to bullseye womp rats in my T-16 back home. They're not much bigger than two meters.


Strange that a trained and experienced fighter pilot deemed it impossible, yet this kid who has a strong connection to The Force (yet didn't even know what The Force was) has been accomplishing it regularly as a hobby, wouldn't you say?

Yeah this is the 7th SW movie, but what if someone has not seen the previous six movies like a hundred times like most fans these days. Rey is a mystery and we don't know much about her or her backstory but it still doesn't explain all her skills. I am comparing all 3 characters first movie. Two are similar and one is not. Reys' backstory will not come until the 8th or 9th movie.


People who would go to see this as their first Star Wars movie, wouldn't really care to complain and whine about how 'it took Luke 3 films to beat Vader' and cry foul on Rey, would they?

The average movie goer obviously enjoyed the movie for what it was hence the great critical reception and box office.

Even if her skills are never explained, I don't really see the problem.

Some people are naturally gifted. She takes things apart and sells them. It doesn't take a stretch of the imagination that with not a lot to do on Jakku, she likely became fairly tech savvy by putting things back together and what not.

We saw she could defend herself in melee combat.

She flew the Falcon, scraping the floor and bashing into walls before getting her bearings and managed to flip it upside down by turning the engines off mid dive. While not many people would have thought of that, Its not quite the 'spectacularly difficult' manoeuvre everyone seems to claim it is.

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Full marks. Particularly about new audience members not being concerned with how many movies Rey has appeared in before using a particular technique.

I personally don't think Luke and Anakin are similar at all. I believe the Revenge Of The Sith novel refers to this explicitly when Yoda says they need to reconsider their whole doctrine of training in order for Anakin's offspring to avoid the mistakes made with him.

Rey being totally alone and emerging as a force user without an exiled Jedi living down the road to prompt her initiation is a natural progression from Luke's belated induction by Obi Wan.

"Who can't use the Force now?! I can still use the Force!" - Yarael Poof

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We know that Luke is practicing with the saber and isn't doing any good with it, then Obi Wan blindfolds him, gives him a few words of encouragement, the most important confirming that The Force can partially guide your actions and also obey commands. No particular instruction is given other than to trust the force and his feelings essentially (not unlike Maz' words to Rey) and suddenly Luke is able to not only deflect the shots he previously couldn't, but deflects 3 shots in quick succession while blindfolded.

After that, they arrive at the destroyed Alderaan, end up on the Death Star and Obi Wan is killed. So whatever 'help' Luke got from Obi Wan off screen, it amounted to Luke being incapable of tackling the remote until he was given the 'stretch out with your feelings' talk, which Rey essentially also got.


I appreciate the feedback about Luke but the worms are multiplying. The big difference between Maz and Obi-Wan is that Maz is a cantina owner and Obi is a Jedi Knight. And Luke is able to audibly hear Obi talking to him.

The real issue is, that The Force is mysterious and always has been. Some people are naturally gifted than others, some take to training better than others, some are quick learners and so on.

Luke is one individual who's journey we saw. That doesn't make him the sole template. People saying stupid sht like 'it took Luke 3 films to learn the Jedi mind trick' there's no proof of that. We only ever saw him even attempt it in the third film. Who's to say that if he attempted to do it to a weak-minded Stormtrooper in A New Hope, he would have failed? Nobody. Who's to say that if Rey had attempted to blow up The Death Star after her awakening, that she would have succeeded? Nobody.

They are two individuals faced with different challenges with the force as their ally.


Yes, the Force is mysterious and so is SW. But what is not mysterious is Anakins and Lukes first movie, there is exposition to explain their skills and why they have them. And if we are to include events or dialog that happen off screen then this whole thread is pointless.

Strange that a trained and experienced fighter pilot deemed it impossible, yet this kid who has a strong connection to The Force (yet didn't even know what The Force was) has been accomplishing it regularly as a hobby, wouldn't you say?


This is what Lucas does best. He provides exposition as to why Luke is able to accomplish his task. There is absolutely nothing in TFA that explains all of Reys skills, besides the Force awakening.

1. People who would go to see this as their first Star Wars movie, wouldn't really care to complain and whine about how 'it took Luke 3 films to beat Vader' and cry foul on Rey, would they?

2. The average movie goer obviously enjoyed the movie for what it was hence the great critical reception and box office.

3. Even if her skills are never explained, I don't really see the problem.

4. Some people are naturally gifted. She takes things apart and sells them. It doesn't take a stretch of the imagination that with not a lot to do on Jakku, she likely became fairly tech savvy by putting things back together and what not.

5. We saw she could defend herself in melee combat.

6. She flew the Falcon, scraping the floor and bashing into walls before getting her bearings and managed to flip it upside down by turning the engines off mid dive. While not many people would have thought of that, Its not quite the 'spectacularly difficult' manoeuvre everyone seems to claim it is.


1. True, if this is peoples' first movie then they have no idea what the backstory is and just enjoy it. Unfortunately there are die hard fans who have picked this movie apart.

2. True, but what they don't know is that it is a ripoff of ANH and hence why it succeeded so well.

3. You might not see a problem with it but for many others it is a big deal.

4. Anakin was naturally gifted as well. But being tech savvy doesn't explain all of Reys amazing skills.

5. There is nothing in the movie to explain this.

6. How did Rey have the skills of a Top Gun pilot? She was able to escape 2 trained Tie Fighters by flipping it upside down and turning the engines off mid dive. If that is not deemed difficult even by the most experienced pilots then Luke blowing up the Death Star could be seen as the same thing.

Even if her skills are never explained, I don't really see the problem.


So back to square one, this is why most people think Rey is a Mary Sue. Well that and a lot of other reasons.

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The die hard fans who nitpick the movie didn't like it to begin with which is why they nitpick. Any movie can be nitpicked. Watch Everything Wrong with Star Wars: A New Hope on YouTube.

Rey has amazing piloting skills for the same reason Anakin and Luke had them, using the Force without realizing it.

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Luke never displayed "amazing" piloting skills but he was established as a decent pilot well before we ever see him fly as opposed to another character whose amazing piloting skills simply exist, and were revealed when plot needed it. In ANH without the help of the entire pilot squad & direct intervention of Han Solo Luke would have been spaced like the rest of Rogue Squadron (save for Wedge). In TESB He gets shot out of the sky on Hoth & crash lands on Dagobah. We never really see him do any eventful piloting after this. I think it's fair to say that after ANH even Wedge outshines Luke's piloting skills. What to speak of Han Solo.

Search your feelings, you know it to be true. 
https://goo.gl/fZ0xWS


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Rey has amazing piloting skills for the same reason Anakin and Luke had them, using the Force without realizing it.


They all have amazing pilot skills but its never explained in the movie why Reys skills are so superior. Again, this is why people think Rey is a mary sue.

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The big difference between Maz and Obi-Wan is that Maz is a cantina owner and Obi is a Jedi Knight.


What difference does that make?

An experienced martial arts master tells me to exhale every time I throw a strike.

A bar owner says to me: I'm no martial artist, but I know how to fight. You should breath out every time you throw a punch or kick.

It's the same result when I give it a shot.

Obi Wan could have been a fake Jedi and crazy old man... its what he says to Luke that's important, not his own rank.

And Luke is able to audibly hear Obi talking to him.


Yes, and we hear everything he said to Luke. He reminded him to use The Force instead of the computer. Had Luke been more confident (or simply didn't have the targeting computer and had no other alternative), he wouldn't have needed Obi Wan in his ear. Just because Luke is fairly sceptical of The Force's abilities (even up to mid-Empire) doesn't mean every other character would or should be.

But what is not mysterious is Anakins and Lukes first movie, there is exposition to explain their skills and why they have them.


Really? I don't seem to remember any exposition explaining Anakin's amazing tech skills. He's a 9 year old who's able to build his own protocol droid to perfect professional manufacturers standard. Where is it explained how he has such skills?

I don't remember any exposition explaining why Luke, a farmboy, was able to hold his own and come out without so much as a scratch in a few fire fights with Stormtroopers, who's aim was referred to as 'precise' earlier in the same film.

Putting some other beloved films under that same lens, it's been a while since I've seen it, but was there any explanation in Raiders as to why Indiana Jones is so good with a whip? I didn't think so but correct me if I'm wrong.

There's no explanation as to how Bruce Wayne learned to fight before joining the league in Batman Begins.

There's no explanation on how he learned to fight at all in Batman 89.

There's no explanation as to why Kyle Reece from Terminator is handy with a shotgun when we see he comes from a time where soldiers have plasma rifles.

Rey is just another protagonist in an action film that has a few different skills. She says she can fly a ship. She's a loner, so which character needs to step in randomly and say to Finn 'Rey is quite a pilot y'know' in order to believe she's not lying? I've never seen a movie where a character is mentioned to be a pretty good driver right before a car chase scene, so should I question its credibility if the driver attempts some unconventional driving and manages to pull it off? In an action movie?

This is what Lucas does best. He provides exposition as to why Luke is able to accomplish his task.


Yet doesn't explain just how Luke is able to make such shots as a hobby, yet skilled and experienced fighter pilots deem it impossible.

There is absolutely nothing in TFA that explains all of Reys skills, besides the Force awakening.


Because in all honesty, most of them don't need to be, just like Luke's amazing runins with Stormtroopers, him coming out with a few kills but not a scratch on him. It's an action movie.


Her piloting skills need not be explained because in all honesty, the last two trilogies have explained it for us. Extremely Force sensitive people have 'Jedi reflexes'. She says she's a pilot herself and has flown ships but has never left the planet.

She's a scavenger on a planet that looks as though there's nothing to do and she was seemingly given or sold to Unkar Plutt, who upgraded the Falcon. She is more likely to know about these upgrades and how they work more so than Han Solo, who hasn't been in the ship for 30 years.

When people say its silly that she knew more about the Falcon than Han, a) They haven't taken that into consideration b) They obviously forget that even when the Falcon was in his possession he barely knew how to handle its maintenance then. He couldn't fix it on his own and even 3PO had a better understanding of it than he did.

Her shooting skills, same as Luke I suppose. Everytime a hero in the Star Wars universe goes up against the 'precise' aiming Stormtroopers, they suddenly turn into ameteurs and the heroes, sharp shooters. That's an action film cliché that's in everything, so why Rey is the only one put under analysis, I'm not so sure.

Her melee skills are shown. It's shown that she can take care of herself earlier in the film. This is shown instead of told. How she got skilled is unknown and irrelevant, same as Luke's piloting. We're told he's a good pilot, not told how he became one.

1. True, if this is peoples' first movie then they have no idea what the backstory is and just enjoy it. Unfortunately there are die hard fans who have picked this movie apart.


And diehard fans that have argued those points. I can only speak from my own experience and what I've seen on these boards, but the common (though not absolute) theme seems to be that those who like the prequels and what they brought to Star Wars don't like it and pick it apart and those who hated the prequels and ignore what they brought to Star Wars love it.

Of course there's plenty of fans that don't fall under this, but its been noted several times that it seems to be the general result.

. True, but what they don't know is that it is a ripoff of ANH and hence why it succeeded so well.


It shares many similarities with ANH intentionally trying to recapture the flavour of pre-prequel Star Wars, which many OT fans seem to agree is a good thing.

Jakku is a desert planet (seeing as every planet in the SW universe only has 1 climate, how many really different types of planets are we expecting to see? It stands to reason many would be the same or similar. Complaining about this is like complaining about films constantly taking place in the city.)

They use a droid to hold onto important information (though a completely different kind of information). Why not? Disk drives don't travel so... droids seem to be the best bet.

There's a powerful space station that wipes out entire systems. This is the start of a new generation of characters. The stakes aren't personal yet, so there needs to be a real threat. So, if your bad guys have a space station that can blow up planets in your first movie, they're not really going to create a less powerful weapon, now are they?

Someone actually said they blew up Starkiller base the same way they destroyed The Death Star in ANH. I seem to remember Rey, the Force sensitive protagonist, had nothing to do with the destruction of Starkiller Base. In fact she needed to be rescued in order to survive its destruction. The base was destroyed by a group effort from fighter pilots and men on the ground planting bombs to reveal the weak spots.

The mentor figure was killed, never mind the context was completely different.

That's about it I think.



At the same time, one of the most common complaints that those who hate this movie like to voice is that Rey isn't having the same limits and journey with The Force that Luke did.

The movie is certainly different enough imo.

3. You might not see a problem with it but for many others it is a big deal.


Obviously. Just seems strange that we never see this kind of complaint with other characters as mentioned earlier.

4. Anakin was naturally gifted as well. But being tech savvy doesn't explain all of Reys amazing skills.


Melee combat is shown early in the film.

Piloting isn't particularly amazing except for one unconventional manoeuvre in a desperate situation, again, not unlike car chases.

Force stuff is Force stuff, its mysterious and will likely be explained in further instalments, if not, well as mentioned, Luke nor Anakin are not the templates as they were even different from each other.

What other amazing skills?

5. There is nothing in the movie to explain this.


There's nothing in the film to explain Luke's piloting skills either. We're told they're good. We're never told how they got good. There's no need for it.

6. How did Rey have the skills of a Top Gun pilot? She was able to escape 2 trained Tie Fighters by flipping it upside down and turning the engines off mid dive. If that is not deemed difficult even by the most experienced pilots then Luke blowing up the Death Star could be seen as the same thing.


It's essentially a car chase. 2 trained Tie Fighter pilots (lets not forget an army of trained Stormtroopers stood no chance against farmboy Luke and co in previous movies) have to hit them. An erratic pilot is difficult to hit, doesn't make her a great pilot. She turned off the engine mid dive, causing the ship to go upside down, in which it is Finn who has to correctly time the shot. Turning the engine off to tip the ship isn't so much a skill as it is a brilliant idea. It doesn't particularly take honed reflexes. Not like a shot that skilled fighter pilots deem impossible.

So back to square one, this is why most people think Rey is a Mary Sue. Well that and a lot of other reasons.


Back to square one on a silly problem that doesn't need explaining. Its an action movie. Like other action movies, including Star Wars movies (not to mention, in real life), some people have skills that aren't explained in detail. Some of Rey's are shown and not told, but there's a ridiculous constant comparison to Luke's limits, as though he is the template... why still crying that the movie is too similar to ANH.

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Well said, d_myerss!

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is Rey still a Mary Sue, even though she is Sith Lord? even Sith's needed training from their Master.

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that one made the world a little bit flatter again. One seems to need the mind of a child to be so easily amused by the abysmal writing served in TFA. A mind that sees deepness in the shallow, originality in the copy and greatness in the void.

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Seems to me there are plenty of both mature and immature posters for and against this movie, as there are for more or less every movie.

It seems quite obvious that he who would use one's enjoyment of a space opera movie to accuse one of having the mind of a child, is in fact the one with the mind of a child.

I mean... self respecting adults wouldn't be so pathetic... surely.

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So a person who doesn't think like you do has the mind of a child, huh? That's quite an insult to the the majority of Star Wars fans. A person who insults millions of people for having a different opinion on a movie, that person has the mind of a child.

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I was watching ANH again last night and I got to thinking. I have been thinking about this mary sue problem all wrong. Every answer to anything that happens in SW is because the Force Awakened. After Anakin met Qui-Gon the Force awakened in him which allowed him to do all the amazing things in TPM. And after Luke met Obi-Wan the Force also awakened in him which allowed him to make the impossible shot even though it was deemed impossible by the most experienced pilots in the galaxy. So everything that Anakin/Vader, Luke and Rey has done or will do is because the Force awakened. So there we have it boys and girls every question you have ever had in SW can be answered because the Force Awakened. Mystery solved!

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i miss u

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me too

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Name one character trait of hers that isn't "good at everything". Seriously, try.

Stubborn, insecure, afraid, hot-headed, aggresive, hypocrite.

She mastered flight

From years of practicing in Jakku.

Jedi Force skills

The Force awakened in her. Besides, we still have two more movies to find out why or how she got such skills.

lightsaber forms

She used her ability with the staff into the lightsaber, but her technique is far from that of a master.

how to operate and repair antique ships

Which she learned while growing up in Jakku.

and beat trained Jedi-types at lightsaber and Force combat

Who was injured, emotionally unstable, and wasn't trying to kill her.

She doesn't have a character arc

Yes she does. She starts off not wanting to leave Jakku, constantly struggling throughtout the film between whether she wants to go back to Jakku and live a normal life or move on and make a difference, up until towards the ending of the film, where she finally embraces her destiny and her connection to the Force.

has no presence in the movie, is completely flat yet is also perfect in every way.

That she's a competent person doesn't make her perfect. She may be "good at everything" but she's far from being perfect and has plenty of flaws.

Oh, and not to mention that everyone loves her

Cause she's charismatic and fun to hang out with. Oh, and Han didn't like her at first and wanted nothing to do with her, until she gets to know her and starts to like her. Same with Luke, everyone liked him but Han, and they ended up becomind best buddies.

and the Resistance trusts her with a sensitive mission and details within 5 minutes of meeting her.

Why wouldn't they trust her? She helped BB-8 get back to the Resistance and also helped Han and Chewie set up the explosives that contributed to the destruction of Starkiller base. Not to mention that she's very powerful in the Force and that if trained by Luke she could help take down the First Order, Snoke and Kylo.

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She mastered flight
From years of practicing in Jakku.


Practicing where? Jakku Top Gun Flight School? Anakin and Luke both had one movie to show they were both great pilots. Rey was an instant pilot with no plot setup.

Jedi Force skills
The Force awakened in her. Besides, we still have two more movies to find out why or how she got such skills.


The Force didn't awaken in Anakin or Luke, they were both trained by Jedi Knights. Luke practiced with a Lightsaber on the Falcon and Anakin spent 10 years training with Obi-Wan before we see him again in Ep 2. Rey was an instant Force and Lightsaber user with zero training and no plot setup.

lightsaber forms
She used her ability with the staff into the lightsaber, but her technique is far from that of a master.


Rey bested Kylo who was trained by Luke and Snoke. Twirling a staff is different than fighting with a weapon that can cut you in half.

how to operate and repair antique ships
Which she learned while growing up in Jakku
.

I must have missed that part where Rey went to Antique Space Ship Repair School.

and beat trained Jedi-types at lightsaber and Force combat
Who was injured, emotionally unstable, and wasn't trying to kill her.


This excuse has been regurgitated for months now. Kylo had a hangnail or a papercut so he couldn't fully defend himself. Kylo was trying to kill her but he couldn't because of elite mary sueness.

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Practicing where? Jakku Top Gun Flight School? Anakin and Luke both had one movie to show they were both great pilots. Rey was an instant pilot with no plot setup.


The Phantom Menace established that Anakin was a great podracer due to his affinity for The Force. Rey also has an affinity for the the Force as well. So naturally she would make a great pilot.

Same goes for Luke. Vader actually says so. Also: Luke's remark about shooting womp rats from his T-16 becomes more clear if you read up on the associated mythology of the films. The T-16 Skyhopper is, in the Star Wars Universe manufactured by the Incom Corporation. The same company that manufactured the T65b X-Wing. The film didn't even make clear exactly what a T-16 was. For all we knew it could have been looking shooting womp rats fro m his lawn mover.

If you allow the character Rey the same benefit of a doubt you'll learn that in the novelization it's explained that she both broke into Unkar Plutt's shipyard and scavenged an old flight simulator which she spent her time with.

The Force didn't awaken in Anakin or Luke, they were both trained by Jedi Knights. Luke practiced with a Lightsaber on the Falcon and Anakin spent 10 years training with Obi-Wan before we see him again in Ep 2. Rey was an instant Force and Lightsaber user with zero training and no plot setup.


If you bothered to watch the film there was a setup. When she tossed Luke's lightsaber she received a couple of visions along with the memories of her being abandoned on Jakku. So, yeah, there's that. Maz Kanata also explicitly said the saber called out to her. So it's that too.

It was also established in A New Hope that being open to the Force enabled one to wield it. Luke had a very brief training session before being able to make that one impossible shot due to the force.

Anakin hadn't even been "opened" to the Force but Qui-Gon explicitly stated that he was a good speed racer because he could foresee events. He even called it Jedi reflexes.

The prequels also stated that the lightsaber was nothing more than a weapon. General Grievous as the primary example. Also Han used a lightsaber to cut open a tauntaun. Not as a weapon but as a tool.

It was already stated in the film that Rey was able to defend herself.

This excuse has been regurgitated for months now. Kylo had a hangnail or a papercut so he couldn't fully defend himself. Kylo was trying to kill her but he couldn't because of elite mary sueness.


It's not really an excuse. It's what actually depicted. He's severely injured, bleeding and actually tries to convert her during their fight.

I must have missed that part where Rey went to Antique Space Ship Repair School.


Because every film needs a long and careful exposition to explain every characters respective skills. An idea for another movie, perhaps. Star Wars: Antique Ship Repair School or Rey Goes to College? FN-2187 starring in The New Order: Band Camp? Really. It was already established she was a fairly tech savvy scavenger. Like it was established that Poe was a pilot because he had a ship, you know. And Han was a smuggler because he was in a shady bar. Or Luke was an ace pilot because of the Force, his father and womp rats and what not.

Did you actually watch the film or did you just jump the Mary Sue bandwagon?

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^^^^^^^ Case in point for desperately trying to twist facts from the previous films and engaging in supposition in an vain attempt to justify the video-game writing in TFA! I liked best:

- "iz in the book" excuse: yeah Rey the starving scavenger learned all from an old simulator computer (but nobody else does, thus she is so awesome). Iz aweful and not in the film, genius.

- "a wizard did iz" defense: no you do not need to "learn the ways of the Force" anymore: Luke and Anakin could do advanced skills like mind tricks, telekinesis, mind reading without training and from the get go; PLUS beat the prime antagonist with it - iz established! Remember Ani beating Maul? That is too why Leia hugged Rey and Chewie/Leia ignored each other after Han’s death and why she got the Falcon as captain too.

"iz all magic" defense: You do not need flying anymore: the Force will do it even when ridiculously stunt piloting an ancient big ship through some wrecks under fire, all without a co-pilot, when having no previous flight experience with that ship! (and being able to aim the turret while flying)

- "iz because of the wound" defense: despite Kylo toying with Rey/Finn and only losing when she had her sudden infamous "The Force?" video game power up moment. No iz all magic and a wizard did it!

Did you actually watch the film or did you just jump the Mary Sue bandwagon?
I assume this should be exactly what you you should be asking yourself. TFA entails the most infamous example of blatant MS writing: you can argue the flatness of the Earth all you want, but in the end it will only prove MaRey Sue flatter.

Dictated but not read, dude.

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As I wrote: Everything has basis in the prequels. Rey displayed nothing new to the franchise.

Magic space ghost (Obi-Wan) and Jedi reflexes. tA ten year old slave kid piloting a space ship was apparently fine. And Darth Maul was defeated by Qui-Gon Jinn's apprentice. Who coincidentally was shown focusing before his final confrontation instead of angrily pacing around. Seems familiar? Someone beating his chest and pacing while the protagonist takes a deep breath and steels him-/herself?

Video game power up, you say? Remember that iconic scene where Luke switches to manual targeting. And he used the Force to become better at firing a starship mounted laser cannon. Rey got better at using the Force by trusting the Force. Which sounds more far-fetched to you?

I'm sorry but apparently the Earth is flat if so called fans of the franchise are so short-sighted.

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Unknowingly tapping into jedi reflexes is not the same thing as using a jedi mind trick out of nowhere with no training

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Do you have a source on that?

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Reflexes are generally more intuitive than something you have to know how to do a specific way?

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I was more thinking about the part where you said that Jedi reflexes was different than using a Jedi mind trick with no training.

When was it established in the films that a character has to train to learn that?

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It certainly seems like something you have to know how to do in order to do correctly. You don't need to go through training to have quick reflexes, that comes naturally.

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In TPM it was stated that it wasn't actually quick reflexes. Qui-Gon explicitly stated that he Anakin could see things before they happened and it thus appeared as he had quick reflexes.

So Rey, while uninitiated, using the Force is not unprecedented in the franchise. It was, however, established that you need training to control and master it. But even Luke could pull lightsabers out of the snow before starting his training with Yoda.

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Unknowingly tapping into jedi reflexes is not the same thing as using a jedi mind trick out of nowhere with no training
Are you saying that Kylo's head is nowhere? (That would explain why he lost the lightsaber fight at the end.) The movie made it pretty clear that she got it when he tried to mindprobe her. Of course they didn't spoonfeed it to you, but how else would you explain how she knew he was afraid he'd never be as strong as Darth Vader?

This picture contains no physical depiction of the Godhead.

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It was clear that she probed his mind and caught a glimpse of his internal conflict and fear. The idea that this taught her how to do advanced jedi techniques is pure speculation however.

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It was clear that she probed his mind and caught a glimpse of his internal conflict and fear. The idea that this taught her how to do advanced jedi techniques is pure speculation however.
It may not be obvious, but it's very plausible. I don't know how you're defining "advanced Jedi techniques" and "pure speculation," but I feel you're trying to argue against a legitimate interpretation with ambiguous phrases. Why should we believe that the Jedi mind trick is that advanced? I mean, apart from your worry that if it isn't, that interferes with your "Mary Sue" narrative?

This picture contains no physical depiction of the Godhead.

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[deleted]

Everything has basis in the prequels. Rey displayed nothing new to the franchise.
True Freddy, Rey did no other things than Luke in RotJ or Vader in RotS. And therein lies the problem. Luke and Anakin in their humble beginnings (first movies) did white belt tricks after a bit of training; Rey was doing black belt stuff without any training. And that also applies to shooting, sword fighting, turret aiming, security breaking, stunt piloting etc etc.

Your Obi Wan-defeats-Maul analogy debunks your own argument btw: Obi was a trained Padawan just on the verge of becoming a Jedi - he had been trained over 20 years by the greatest Jedi masters. And he obviously lost the sword fight against Maul, but won the battle by a surprise maneuver after being defeated (that final bit was badly written too of course). Comparing this with untrained Rey and her beating a Master of the Ren/Jedi Killer with a weapon never used, with powers she never even heard of before, is absurd.

If you don't see the enormous difference in nuance I cannot help you. This difference is called Mary Sue writing btw.
Video game power up, you say? Remember that iconic scene where Luke switches to manual targeting. And he used the Force to become better at firing a starship mounted laser cannon. Rey got better at using the Force by trusting the Force. Which sounds more far-fetched to you?
Huh, do you mean the torpedo shooting in ANH? If so, you are seriously implying that Luke after going through training and while being ghost-mentored by Obi Wan, intuitively knowing when to fire the torpedo is the same Force-using level as with Rey..? Namely her besting a 30 year old Master with Force powers (several times) and fighting (with an unknown weapon), despite being untrained as the movie blatantly states? She used it all from mind trick etc; Luke took 3 movies and a lot of training to do that. And you even imply that the former is more far fetched than the latter? Not really, but to each his own.
I'm sorry but apparently the Earth is flat if so called fans of the franchise are so short-sighted.
Don't suppose you speak for the fans. Don't even suppose you speak for TFA fans, many of which openly or secretly cringe at the Mary Sue writing, especially in the Leia hug scene or the Kylo-defeat scene. If it is any consolation: the Earth is not a perfect sphere either, but that does not make it flat.

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Your Obi Wan-defeats-Maul analogy debunks your own argument


I'm not sure how you debunk something that's depicted. Rey is actually and factually written as such. To be fair there's no debunking to be done. We can, however, discuss the rationale and implications of that character portrayal.

Also, while on the topic, Obi-Wan may have been a withheld padawan but Darth Maul was one of the two current Sith lords. Just like The Phantom Menace made it clear that those guys are not to be trifled with TFA made it pretty clear that Kylo was an apprentice and not fully trained. But that wasn't what I was referring too. I was trying to point to the scene where Rey composes herself and takes a deep breath and suddenly manages to fight off Kylo Ren.

The whole trusting the Force skit.

Again, I thought the movie made those parts very clear.

uh, do you mean the torpedo shooting in ANH? If so, you are seriously implying that Luke after going through training and while being ghost-mentored by Obi Wan, intuitively knowing when to fire the torpedo is the same Force-using level as with Rey..?


Yes, that's the scene I'm referring too. And what's relatively far-fetched here is that it's not piloting or shooting skills that aids Luke but "The Force". Meanwhile Rey trusted the Force and used the Force to pull a lightsaber out of the snow. Same lightsaber that previously in the film called out to her, by the way. Kind of implied too when Kylo says the saber belongs to him and it flies past him. It was perhaps a brutish way of showing us that Rey is the one to pick up Luke's mantle.

Luke took 3 movies and a lot of training to do that.


There was no exposition in any way to cover Luke's training to learn that specific trick. We can assume or infer that it takes a lot of training but we don't actually know that. At least if we're watching the films.

Don't suppose you speak for the fans. Don't even suppose you speak for TFA fans, many of which openly or secretly cringe at the Mary Sue writing, especially in the Leia hug scene or the Kylo-defeat scene. If it is any consolation: the Earth is not a perfect sphere either, but that does not make it flat.


Projecting, much? I speak for myself. And just for reference: I'm not the one trying to shoehorn a character into an oversimplified trope. Not that Star Wars ever been famous for it's depth of character but, hey, go for it!

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Ah so it's the film that a mind trick is in that makes it in that makes it mary sue writing.

There is nothing in any Star Wars that states the demarcation of force powers. They are demonstrated whenever the story needs them to. Any and all conditions which you impose are your own problem.

"Who can't use the Force now?! I can still use the Force!" - Yarael Poof

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Luke and Anakin in their humble beginnings (first movies) did white belt tricks after a bit of training; Rey was doing black belt stuff without any training. And that also applies to shooting, sword fighting, turret aiming, security breaking, stunt piloting etc etc.


This is what we are trying to get across, Luke and Anakin both had ONE movie to establish their character arc. Rey had none. Luke and Anakin never fought with a light saber in their first movies respectively. In Reys' first movie she fights and wins with no injuries to her body.

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If you watch the film it actually is her arc. They're at the very least implying that she has an enigmatic past that will be revealed. Such as who her parents are and her connection to Luke Skywalker.

Notice, for instance, her visions when touching Luke's old lightsaber weaved together with memories of her abandonment. Also take note of the cliffhanger ending. I think it was sufficient enough to show us that they're setting up a revelation for Episode VIII.

Also: Did you forget or neglect to mention the part where she was captured and interrogated by Kylo Ren?

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Cliffhangers are good for soap operas not Star Wars.

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Inability to comprehend or perceive the character's arc in this movie is something you bring to it. It is not inherent in the story that's been told.

In Reys' first movie she fights and wins with no injuries to her body.


And? Do you need to see a physical injury (presumably a rehash of Luke or a rehash of Anakin) in order for you to perceive this character's arc or to even consider that they might have one?

"Who can't use the Force now?! I can still use the Force!" - Yarael Poof

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Name one character trait of hers that isn't "good at everything". Seriously, try.


She completely messes up using a blaster pistol, forgets the safety, misses her first shot, and ruins the element of surprise. We've never seen someone make such a balls-up in SW before.

End of thread.

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you are unbelievable! So somebody who has not shot with a blaster before, misses one single shot and then miraculously hits each and every trained soldier pursuing her - backfiring - at a great distance is a balls up to you...? Not to forget her turret aiming when she was piloting the Falcon please.

Did you notice the film goes through great length to demonstrate Rey had not done the things before by first having her humorously demonstrate rooky inexperience ("she is so cute and funny I love her"), but seconds later she jumps to god mode, because she can do anything (wow, she is so super-awesome!)? It's called a writing pattern: release monster - saves everybody; nearly crashes the Falcon - then stunt pilots it alone like never seen before; fails at mind trick first: seconds later immediately succeeds; misses one shot - then hits everything etc.

End of thread, indeed.
Dictated but not read, dude.

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How many times did Luke use a blaster before getting in a skirmish with a detention centre full of guards and troopers? (And remember. This is a kid who got ambushed in his own backyard, not even noticing a Tusken raider is creeping right on top of him that's suddenly able to take on trained soldiers.)

"Who can't use the Force now?! I can still use the Force!" - Yarael Poof

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We saw Luke with a rifle earlier in the film so he knows how to use a gun and watching him shoot some nameless goons didn't stand out as overly impressive because he hadn't previously displayed master level skill in every other area prior to that scene and he missed more shots than Rey did

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Yup, he was raised on a farm with weapons: we saw him use them (clumsily). We also saw him boast how he shot womp rats with his T16. I cannot remember one master shot done by Luke - he seemed quite average at it. The cowboy shooting was done by Han and Chewie, maybe even Leia.

With Rey as always: set up she does not use guns - humorously show us she actually has no experience (safety on), but still have her shoot any soldier pursuing her at a distance with one shot.

Luke was just not kewl: all others were way ahead of him, including his super important twin sister (light years ahead even). Rey however, she generally outperformed and outclassed those she met by a wide margin. That says it all.

Dictated but not read, dude.

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we saw him use them


Them? What were those weapons? What were the times that he fired them.

Luke was just not kewl


Oh.

she generally outperformed and outclassed those she met by a wide margin.


Keep telling yourself that.

"Who can't use the Force now?! I can still use the Force!" - Yarael Poof

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[deleted]

Really? Well since Luke's casually mentioned pilot skills are used as proof of him already having force powers, juts like Anakin pod-racing, then how come that perception, which by the way there is no Jedi training every exposited, suggested, hinted or depicted in any movie, does not enable him to sense another creature, getting to within feet of him without noticing?

I bet you Luke did a couple of drive-by shootings on sandpeople when he was cruising around with Biggs and Tank.


Right. 


"Who can't use the Force now?! I can still use the Force!" - Yarael Poof

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[deleted]

Exceptional piloting skills are associated with Jedi powers. It's unequivocally identified as a Jedi trait in the prequel, in reference to someone who has never had any training, and piloting is never alluded to being part of Jedi training.

So when Obi Wan says "I hear you've become quite a pilot yourself", in reference to his "wasting time with his friends" it's used as proof of "good writing" that means that Luke's sudden starfighter combat exploits are not evidence of being overpowered.

"Who can't use the Force now?! I can still use the Force!" - Yarael Poof

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[deleted]

That's the first I've heard on Luke using force powers to assist in his airmanship capabilities in ANH. I will have to enquire about this with my nerd affiliates to get a ruling on it.


QUI-GON : You should be proud of your son. He gives without any thought of
reward.
SHMI : He knows nothing of greed. He has...
QUI-GON : He has special powers.
SHMI : Yes...
QUI-GON : He can see things before they happen. That's why he appears to
have such quick reflexes. It is a Jedi trait.


Apparently, Luke inherited this Jedi trait, and Rey has it as well as shown by her amazing flying of the Falcon, which she was surprised by.

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[deleted]

impossible stunt manouvers


Don't hold back. Call them "unthinkable aerobatics" or "physical aberrations".

Or how about, "inconceivable contortions"?

on a whim


Just like that. Like it's no big deal. In her sleep. etc.

"Who can't use the Force now?! I can still use the Force!" - Yarael Poof

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Having quick reflexes won't give you enviable pilot skills. Flying good comes from time and practise. The Falcon was a tough beast that required a legendary flight crew. Flying it is one thing, but doing impossible stunt manouvers on a whim can't be done instantly, unless Rey has been flying it for years beforehand; which is unlikely considering she thought it was "garbage".


Having that Jedi trait made Anakin, Luke, and Rey great pilots.

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The Falcon was a tough beast that required a legendary flight crew. Flying it is one thing, but doing impossible stunt maneuvers on a whim can't be done instantly, unless Rey has been flying it for years beforehand; which is unlikely considering she thought it was "garbage".



Exactly, and why was the Falcon ready to fly instantly and there was absolutely nothing wrong with it.

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Exactly, and why was the Falcon ready to fly instantly and there was absolutely nothing wrong with it.


As evidenced by Unkar Plutt's, "upgrades," it had recently been worked on.

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[deleted]

why was the Falcon ready to fly instantly and there was absolutely nothing wrong with it.
If there was nothing wrong with it, why did Han Solo complain about "some moofmilker put[ting] a compressor on the hyperdrive?" It's as if you were afraid that if you put just a little imagination into it, you wouldn't be so negative and couldn't pretend to be edgy.

This picture contains no physical depiction of the Godhead.

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