At all. The character is real difficult to warm to, theres nothing redeeming about her and I enjoyed the show better in the episodes she didnt feature in during s2, it's nothing personal against the actress, I dont like the character, I wonder does anyone?
shareI agree!! I wanted him to marry may, she at least understood his gangster background and revealed in it. Grace has never seemed happy with Tommy apart from lust filled fatuation in the first few seasons and the 2 year time jump has not given anyone an opertunity to see there love grow. Even the wedding day she was just nagging him and unhappy again.
shareMay revelled in Tommy's gangster background because she never had to suffer the consequences of it or even consider the possibility that she might get harmed. Grace is nagging Tommy because he's involved in business dealings that could get them all killed, including their baby son. Doesn't seem too unreasonable to me.
shareWhat bothers me is that any female who doesn't cower or who challenges the male protagonist is hated (see Breaking Bad). It's important to remember Grace and Tommy have been together now for a couple of years. Unfortunately, we missed the honeymoon phase, so it's not going to be lovey dovey and new. That is one reason the time jump bothered me actually, too maybe things established off screen.
shareAgree. I love Grace's character and the actress. One of the main reasons why I keep watching the show. Hopefully she gets another story arc.
shareGrace betrayed Tommy when she didn't have to. And let's not forget how she met him. She is a whore, a very stupid and annoying one.
"Relics of ancient times. Lonely cenotaphs. Standing along that melancholy tideland."
She is a whore
she is too ambitious, too manipulative, too demanding. All the qualities they admire in Tommy but find unacceptable in Grace.
Yes, but Polly isn't pretending that she's anything else either. Grace had her own agenda with the Irish and it made her do stupid things that endangered the Shelby's, that is not someone who considered the consequences for the man she loves.
shareWhen has Polly ever manipulated anyone? And as far as ambition, since season 1 she has been trying to tame Tommys wild ambition to expand into new territories which put the family at risk.
shareIs whore synonymous with adulteress?
shareNo, it's another word for prostitute. And there is no equivalent word for men, unsurprisingly.
shareI'm pretty sure someone can be a whore without being a prostitute.
shareNo it definitely means prostitute, it just gets used against women by misogynists as a way of degrading them.
shareI have heard the term used for men also, and someone can definitely be a whore without being a prostitute, a whore is someone sexually indiscriminate, whereas a prostitute is someone who exchanges sexual favours for money.
shareIt might be a cultural difference but I've never heard a man in Scotland being called a whore.
The principle definition of whore is prostitute. It can also mean sexually promiscuous.
A man whore or just plain whore, I have heard people say it, as Tommy says, 'We all whore ourselves one way or another', it's not exclusive to women.
Yes a prostitute can be a whore, however, a whore is not necessarily a prostitute, there is most definitely a difference in the practical use of the English language when it comes to the two words. What Grace most definitely is, is an adulteress, but that doesn't make her either a whore in this scenario or a prostitute, the fact that she would have slept with Tommy for information would mean she potentially would have whored herself for her country. The best example is that of Grace vs Lizzie, Lizzie was a prostitute, she sold sex for money because she had to, to some that made her a whore, however, she was unwilling to whore herself when Tommy asked her to at the race track but because it was for the business, she agreed but as a prostitute, not as a woman picking up a man just because she fancied him, of course it was probably more expedient to do that. Grace was willing to gain information in exchange for sexual favours, that doesn't make her a prostitute in the general usage of the word.
I don't know if you missed the foreshadowing in the scene with Grace and Campbell at the opera. Campbell says that she must do everything to get the location of the guns, he then goes on to say that he doesn't mean anything - Grace then responds by saying that he underestimates her in every way. You do realise that she is letting him know that she wouldn't do anything!
Grace slept with Tommy because she had grown to love him. Let's not forget that she already had all of the information at this point. She may be a cheat, adulteress and extremely self centred but she is not a whore.
When someone calls you a whore they are calling you a prostitute.
Ah but that's how you interpret it, I took it as she knew what he was asking and was telling him he didn't have to backtrack, that was how he was under estimating her, by not thinking she would do what it took to get the information. She didn't say, you must be out of your mind, I'm not doing that did she?
Yes, she slept with him after she had the information, but I said she would potentially have whored herself for the information, let's face it, she wasn't a virgin was she?
When someone calls someone a whore, they are saying that the person will sleep with anyone, not that they will sleep with anyone for money, there's a difference.
Whore = prostitute. That is what the word means.
shareNo, it doesn't. "Whore" is sometimes used to mean "prostitute." Like on "Game of Thrones." But even when I was in high school which was a couple of decades ago, people used "whore" and "slut" pretty much interchangeably. It just meant someone who had loose sexual mores, basically.
I don't like either word and didn't/don't use them...or rarely. But at least in the US, "whore" is not the same as "prostitute." Not at all. A prostitute has sex specifically for monetary or other similar gain. It's an exchange, an explicit and understood barter. Not the same.
I've always taken whore to mean someone who has sex (or gives some part of themselves that should be valued) away in some fashion in exchange for SOMETHING, not just money. Fame whore, attention whore, drama whore, etc. They're giving away their integrity for fame, etc. But you can also use it to mean professional slut, not literally, just someone who seems to spend enough time screwing anything for it to practically be their calling, a slut who is serious about it. Like mega slut.
But the term means professional sex worker, but lots of words have come to have other meanings in slang use, so it doesn't matter.
Definition:
whore
hôr/Submit
noun derogatory
1. A prostitute.
verb
1. (of a woman) work as a prostitute.
"she spent her life whoring for dangerous men"
synonyms: work as a prostitute, sell one's body, sell oneself, be on the streets
"she spent her life whoring"
TOP 5:
1 Eddie Kaye Thomas
2 Cillian Murphy
3 Damon Albarn
4 Dominic Monaghan
5 Ewan McGregor
WOW........I really do not know how to respond to that
shareSo Grace and her husband are in
England for fertility treatment.
She instead procreates with her
former sex partner. What slur does
her husband hurl at her? Whore.
[deleted]
Cheat, adulterer, liar, all the names you would use for a cheating wife or husband. Sleeping with two men doesn't make you a whore.
share"Cheat, adulterer and liar" are not
slurs. They're fact-based
descriptors.
Perhaps some of us don't feel the need to slur. Being a whore (prostitute) is not the same as adultery.
shareYet men refer to their adulterous wives as whores.
shareNot all men, some men are capable of reading a dictionary.
I see from some of the other boards that you contribute to that you like calling women whores and then debating the meaning of the word.
Good luck
Please. On ONE other board, I explained the difference between one having multiple partners for pleasure and one having multiple partners as a form of commerce. lol and I don't even remember what show that was and don't have the patience to sift that far back.
Besides, I never wrote "all" men.
TopShelf -
Oh, no, what are you saying here???
Yet men refer to their adulterous wives as whores.
Abusive men, not actual men.
OOOPS! In the previous post, disregard the last line. I thought you were ScottishKate coming back at me. lol
shareTopShelf
Abusive men, not actual men.
What about a hurt man?
It's the same as a jilted wife lashing out after she learned her husband strayed. Insert __any slur__ here.
The definer is promiscuity -- which she wasn't shown to be either. Slurs in this case are visceral reactions.
worth every minute I spent reading it. Very well articulated post ma'am or sir.
shareTwentytoOne -
worth every minute I spent reading it. Very well articulated post ma'am or sir.
And some men are flat-out whores themselves.
shareNo, I agree, it doesn't.
I'd rather someone who was a "whore" in the way I've known it defined (as in, someone who sleeps with a lot of people) than someone who lies, betrays, cheats, uses, manipulates, etc.
Grace wasn't a whore. But she was the rest of those things.
>Yes a prostitute can be a whore
Forgive me for overlooking most of the rest of your post, but as pointed out above by definition, a prostitute is a whore. It's the same thing, just different labels. They both get paid for the sexual services/favors they provide.
I think you're confusing the current slang and easily thrown about definitions and labels that tend to be attached either consciously or subconsciously to women according to the the perceived (or known) sexuality or sexual life of theirs.
Now moving on from definition, it is very common these days to hear a woman described as whore. Chances are she is not. Note, it's just as common to describe a woman as a slut (which people often will attribute as being the same). Now Slut seems like a much more pointedly negative word used to describe a woman that is say promiscuous, and seeks out sexual situations frequently. Chances are when labelling a woman as this they indicating she is promiscuous.
Often however when people are labelled as such (slut, whore, skank etc), at least often in the case of women, it can often be the case that they really can't fairly have any of these attributes ascribed to them. But these labels are levied against them in order to easily demean them due to perceived wrongs or general dislike, in this way which is generally a quick and hard to disprove negative stigma and socially lowering insult.
and to this i say thus: who gives a f/ck what i woman does wit her own body or who the f/ck she sleeps with?
Maybe you should look into this notion of the 'whore/madonna complex' when it comes to women.
It's interesting that in your post you do what us humans so often do and should really stop, using those same sexually unsavory labels to punctuate your feelings and pop people into demeaning little boxes based on your opinion of right and wrong.
"(Grace) is an adulteress, but that doesn't make her either a whore in this scenario or a prostitute, the fact that she would have slept with Tommy for information would mean she potentially would have whored herself for her country."
Let's remove whore from the equation. Otherwise Grace being a whore for acting as a spy and being willing to sleep with Tommy in order to get him to potentially open up, might mean we also have to level that Polly is a whore, because when she was told she needed to submit sexually(?) to the constable a series or two ago or else the constable would take actions against Tommy/Peaky Blinders. But you're going to say Polly was being blackmailed, and i'mm going to say Grace was out to serve her country, both acting to procurring thins to their own ends, but that's ascribing our own morals such as in;
"Lizzie was a prostitute, she sold sex for money because she had to,"
SO she was a whore, but that's ok according to you're standards, because she had to make a living. Morals.
"to some that made her a whore, however"
It makes her the definition of a whore. She was a whore.
"to some that made her a whore, however, she was unwilling"
So she was what you consider a 'good whore' because she refused for reasons you agree with. Some would say if Grace had slept for Tommy to aid her country/police force, that she was not only not a whore, but that she had did the right this following through.
"she was unwilling to whore herself when Tommy asked her to at the race track but because it was for the business, she agreed but as a prostitute, not as a woman picking up a man just because she fancied him,"
This is again where you lose and current slang definition of the word does you a disservice, once again whore and prostitute are the same thing. Besides, she was unwilling to do that because Tommy had told her she would never have to again, working for them, but would you say no when Tommy ask a 'favor'?. IIRC Tommy had asked her to get the officers(?) attention knowing he had a proclivity for whores, and he would intervene before she had to do anything (he failed IIRC), and she was easily able to do that, knowing the subtle trick of listing your price on the bottom of your shoe.
We as a society really need to let go of our notions of what makes a good or bad sexually active woman.
"Man Whore" is a thing.
share"Man Whore" is a thing.
shareGrace came from Ireland to avenge her father's death and worked as a spy in a bar full of gangsters hoping to find the guns that belonged to the IRA. She was very brave - just think of all the danger she was confronted with - the almost rape of Billy Kimber, the killing of the two IRA men late at night, the trailing and killing of the other IRA man outside the pub, shooting Campbell at the last episode in S1. She fell in love - with Thomas Shelby. Whore is not a word you would apply to Grace, and she resented it when Tommy said everyone whores. The writer chose her name and that is who she was - Grace. However, she did betray Tommy. Campbell double-crossed her. Yet she was bold enough to face Tommy afterwards. the most dangerous of gangsters. She's quite a woman. What a great character and a match for Tommy. Many men fell in love with her.
shareI too find the time jump a little irritating, it leaves too many questions unanswered, however, I don't think Grace is a particularly strong character, she made poor decisions, even though she was meant to be madly in love and left him for no apparent reason I can find that isn't still pertinent. I think May's independence, social standing and love of horses would have made her the better choice for a wife, even if he doesn't love her, he's meant to be ruthless and heartless after all!
shareGrace just seemed way too different between seasons. Both times. In S3 she was wanting Tommy to be Mr. Respectable Manor House Man, no fighting, no gangster business, no racing. Charity balls and safety and Cavalry society and bourgeois ambition. WTF was that? I thought she fell in love with Tommy the Gypsy Gangster and CHOSE him over her safe, nice, respectable husband. It was just weird.
They did the character a disservice, just like they did May a disservice.
I thought Grace seemed unrealistically naive about Tommy's dealings. She caught him in his business clothes, at odd hours, hyperventilating over their son's crib, and believed him when he said everything was fine. This from a woman who tries to go toe-on-toe with Polly as a manipulator. She was like two different characters and it didn't work.
Grace knew what Tommy was when she married him. She knew when she fell in love with him. She had a safe, respectable husband. She could have passed their baby off as his, kept the kid safe. She chose Tommy, chose his life, and then nagged him to completely change.
I never liked her. I found her a hypocrite and a bore.
Grace always knew who/what he was.
shareGrace is nagging Tommy because he's involved in business dealings that could get them all killed, including their baby son.
no, may didn't understand the gangster life at all. she was just an aristocrat playing around with a gangster to liven up her lonely, boring existence. her behavior in the goldfish scene was quite desperate and pathetic.
tommy and grace have their flaws, but they're a match for each other's intellect and strength. grace has actually been on the dangerous side and their bond includes going through life threatening situations together. may doesn't come close.
i do like season 1 grace best. we'll just have to see how tommy and grace challenge each other. i do wish that we saw them going through expecting a child together, the beginnings of being together. but, where this season begins fits with the premise of the series overall.
It was Grace who married a gangster and then wanted to turn him into a bourgeois car salesman and philanthropist. Who got mad when her Gypsy Gangster husband acted like what he was. Who got pissy about him going off to talk business for ten minutes during a charity ball. Who utterly failed to read the signs of what kind of s**t he was up to and how he might not be able to control it. This supposed tough, intuitive spy.
Grace couldn't handle it. She thought she knew what she was getting into, but she didn't.
"There's business and then there's love."
"Is there? With Thomas Shelby?"
"You think your people are ruthless? Try mine."
I wanted him to marry May as well, I think she understood why he is the way he is but despite that wants him for himself, and realistically, he would have gone for the option which gained him status, despite the child. I find the fact that his family means everything to him but he loves and marries a woman whose actions and betrayal had major consequences for him and them, completely incomprehensible, no matter how much he loves her! And she is so needy when she comes back, considering she is married to another man, I can't believe he would want her given all the facts! I hope May makes a comeback, the romantic in me believes he actually loves her and in his own way was trying to protect her from herself and his enemies, I know, as I said, the romantic in me!
sharei think you indeed are being too romantic about may. tommy doesn't love her, sorry. respect, a distraction, business, yes. he had no regrets because may did help him to see of other possibilities besides grace. he certainly didn't marry grace to protect may. he loves grace. and he didn't marry grace because she was pregnant. he came the closest to death in that field. when he lived, i think he had his epiphany, life flashing before his eyes moment, and thought "i'm going for it, the business AND the woman i love." life is short after all.
may is weak, desperate, and definitely does not understand tommy and his life. she likes the persona and the thrill, without really thinking about the reality. she definitely would not fit into his world beyond mistress.
i know grace was a spy that, but did you not watch the first season? she trusted that campbell would not come after tommy. she gave campbell what he wanted, the guns, on the condition basically that no harm comes to tommy. how is that betrayal? she came into his life without knowing anything about him, and on a mission to avenge her father. wouldn't you do that? once you fell for the gangster, would you really still say "eh screw my dad and what i came here for". it would be like abandoning her own family. if anything, i think tommy would admire her for that.
and, she kept trying to get tommy to go with her to NY. he refused, etc. she did what any rejected woman would do, move on. i don't think she slept with tommy to get pregnant. i think she really wanted to see him and things happened. i think she thought she couldn't get pregnant and slept with tommy because she figured she wouldn't, so why be careful?
i don't have grace on a pedestal, but i do like her and tommy together and thinks it's the best choice. i like season 1 grace the best, and hope that we get back to seeing that more of that grit, if she remains alive.
Yes, I think I probably am being too romantic about May and Tommy.
Personally I don't actually see her as weak and desperate, lonely perhaps but not weak or desperate, her speech about him telling her about grace was being gentlemanly and would he go back to being the ganster wasn't about him being a gangster was it, it was her saying, I'm a big girl, I'll deal with it all in my own way, you don't have to worry about me falling to pieces, and despite the fact she tells him people were laughing at her, she didn't say it with glee and excitement that she was with a gangster, it was said with bitterness because she is obviously a woman used to doing things her own way and knows that she has feelings engaged with the wrong man when she could probably have anyone with her fortune alone. I doubt there were many female trainers, it was very much a man's domain, so that tells you plenty about her ambitions and the risks she would take! I don't think we'll see much of her anyway, if at all, in this series, one can hope though! I think the Russian princess is waiting in the wings.
Grace gave Campbell what he wanted, and that was her job, however, I don't think she really needed to give him all the information she did, and she betrayed Tommy by giving any information at all after she realised she had feelings for him. She's not very perceptive or clever if she didn't realise Campbell had feelings for her and she could have used that to play the game, after all, he only gave her the job because he fancied her and needed bait, it couldn't be for her superior spying skills, unless she intentionally meant to be caught by the IRA!
I appreciate she resigned, but after she betrayed them, she could have stayed in England, not marry some rich bloke in another country. And using his brother because Tommy was too intelligent, she didn't hold back with that did she, although he wasn't so intelligent he didn't make the connection to her before Campbell told him about her!
Anyway, quite apart from whether she and Tommy suit, I don't like her character, perhaps it is a flaw in the portrayal, but she just doesn't come across as likable to me in the way I think she's meant to, I'm definitely not rooting for her! I am with aunt poll on this one!
I know two years have passed but I want to know what happened to May. I believe Charlotte Riley is/was pregnant so that would explain her being absent. However, May put up some bold claims to Grace during their "showdown" scene at the races in the season 2 finale. Saying she would pretty much prevent Tommy/The Shelby's from being able to be involved in legitimate horse racing, that she knew the licensing people, etc. I guess this is why the Shelby's have also moved on to cars? I guess she put up a fight off screen until Tommy finally shut her down for good and she moved on.
I think my biggest gripe against Grace isn't about the character herself but about Annabelle Wallis. She wasn't bad in season 1 when she played the shy barmaid in a new country. However, there's just something about her that is off from season 2 onward. I feel like she is very monotoned and emotionless with her delivery of lines. I just don't feel connected to her character at all.
However, May put up some bold claims to Grace during their "showdown" scene at the races in the season 2 finale. Saying she would pretty much prevent Tommy/The Shelby's from being able to be involved in legitimate horse racing, that she knew the licensing people, etc.
Ah no you're right, I was the one who was confused. It has been a while since I've seen the season 2 finale. Reading your reply I do remember May saying her influence would help and that was why she believed Tommy would choose her over Grace. She felt he would need her to help his business and without it he wouldn't be able to continue with racing/betting.
shareI just did a marathon catch up so that's the only reason I even got that!😃
shareI find her very bland and anemic. A better actress could have made all the fuss over her (by Tommy) more believable. The characters on this show are so full-blooded, including May the Toff. Grace never was.
shareMay is not weak and desperate. She is vulnerable and willing to put it out there.
This character is apparently gone. She lost, and it appears she accepted her loss. Not liked it, but accepted it. That was probably symbolized when the race was over, Tommy didn't meet her, and so she put on her coat and said sadly (but with a smile) "come on, girl, let's get you home."
As far as I am concerned May got out of it with dignity and her life. She never lied to and cheated on a spouse (who later ended up committing suicide or more likely being killed because of her) or lied to and betrayed Tommy.
How many people died or were endangered so Grace could get what she wanted? Arthur, Freddy, her husband. And yes, she was after what she wanted when she spied on the Shelbys. Her father was a military officer. At least a cop. He was basically killed during a rebellion/war. He was killed in the line of duty, but instead of accepting it like so many others, she pursued vigilante justice and hurt people who were not even involved.
May's a better person than Grace ever was.
I feel exactly the same as you.
"Relics of ancient times. Lonely cenotaphs. Standing along that melancholy tideland."
I feel exactly the same way. I do not like her at all. In fact, I find her character really rather chilling. I have to wonder about the poor, nice, kind husband's suicide. It seemed as though Arthur almost let it slip - that it wasn't. I wouldn't be a bit surprised if TS and Grace were in cahoots. I don't think he committed suicide at all. IMO they deserve each other. I think the series has gone really dark. As far as him being in love with her, who cares? He is jumping on some Russian princess a few episodes down. Even when TS mentioned that Grace's family was all in military uniform - I mean these are Irish Gypies - she could have cared less - just rolled her eyes. It almost seems like their characters have turn into sociopaths. I'm watching for my favorite Arfur, his new wife, John, Lizzie, Pol and the rest. Oh, and the music.
I loved May. She loved him, cared about him and his needs, was his intellectual equal and was really, really sane. I hope she comes back.
Grace comes across as quite petulant and selfish doesn't she, and lacking in something I would think TS would value above anything else, loyalty!
shareI don't really see what is so petulant and selfish about Grace wanting to know what Tommy is doing especially if it's going to endanger them all. Loyalty is not exactly Tommy's strong suit either - look at the way he throws Arthur under the bus time and time again. Tommy and Grace are the same, it's just that she gets judged differently because people refuse to see her as her own person and instead of Tommy's love interest.
shareThey are traits I don't like in a person which she has, his family trust him despite everything so why can't she? Tommy is selfish and manipulative and that is because he is trying to do what is best for them all, it is borne of necessity, he is arrogant as product of everything that has happened and because he needs to talk the talk so his enemies know he can walk the walk! Also, if I was in a situation where I had acted the way she did in the first and second series, I wouldn't expect anyone to blindly give me their trust again!
shareTrusting someone doesn't mean never questioning them. It's a natural human response if your life (and your child's) is in someone's hands. Tommy is not infallible.
shareI don't like anything about her. Nothing. Just my opinion. I think they bring out the worst in each other and, I don't think the story line about the poor, departed nice, kind husband is over by a long shot. If they continue on this way, IMO they are bound to implode. I certainly don't think they are OPT's. Even women in my FB group that were Grace supporters think she is a total bad one. That not saying TS isn't either but the two together are a lethal combo and not in any good way.
shareWell, as they say the truth will out!
shareBut Isn't that a good thing. It doesn't matter if someone likes Grace or absolutely hates her, she is still better for the series over May because she is the more interesting character. What would May really add to PB. Nothing. She would be Tommy's pretty ,sweet, loving wife. She would have no past or tension with Polly or any of the other family members. She wouldn't come between Tommy and his business. She wouldn't even care if he had affairs. It would be so dull.
At least with Grace she has a past with the family. There is conflict there. She is manipulative. She has her own ideas. She's not afraid to call Tommy on his BS. Plus he loves her and will always see the best in her so she has a strong emotional hold over him that no other character has.
I've seen so many gangster series/movies where the wife is just arm candy and a mother to the kids and looks the other way. For once I would like to see a wife that gets herself right into the story. I don't care if they work together as a team or she completely turns Tommy's life upside down and breaks his heart again. Please just give me a female character that does something different than play the happy housewife.
i hope she doesn't break his heart again! i've always been team grace. i do agree that her character adds more to the show. i definitely see her standing her ground and showing her fiesty irish side. i wonder if she'll actually help tommy with churchill. since she's worked for the crown, she would know how to manipulate it.
^ 100% agree mreeney
shareYou just hit the nail on the head. Thanks for putting it so well mreeney.
shareHold on. I disagree totally. May, arm candy??? Please. She owns her business, is smarter by miles than Grace, is independent and has no need for TS other than she loves him.
Grace, while being the worst spy ever invented (also IMO not a v good actress - my grannie would have done a better job than her as a spy), is a liar, cheat, betrayer and quite possibly a sociopath. She is dependent on men for everything. She marries someone she doesn't love, takes complete and total advantage of him and then we come to the part where we are really not sure how he dies. . . Yeah TS loves her so much, he's having it on with a Russian princess two episodes down. This so-called relationship is doomed to fail. Polly has her number. She's a cheat and a liar. She's the arm candy. That is all she's trained to do? Tell me, what job could she get? What business could she run. I have no respect for her as a feminist. If she had to make it on her own, without a man supporting her, God knows what that character would be doing. Well, I can think of a few things.
May would never play happy housewife. She's way too smart and connected for that. She already has her own successful business. She's the only sane one at this stage. I hope she comes back. But, IRL, she can do as she pleases and take whatever roles suit her fancy.
By the way, TS' charachter is no better than Grace IMO. So they are well suited.
I think you missed my point completely which was that I could care less if Grace is a good person or not. I don't care if she is likable or not. Why is it so important that female characters are likable. Do we hold male characters to the same standards. Tommy is worse than Grace in so many ways but where are all the threads debating if he is likable character? As a feminist I would think you would take offense to that double standard.
Also you do know that this show is set in the twenties right? What jobs do you think were available to women 100 years ago? How many woman do you think could support themselves and a young child in 1924 without a man? not many. I don't remember everything about May's character but I doubt she was a self made woman. Are you saying she got her big house, horses and business with money she earned all by herself. Please, I seem to remember she had a rich dead husband and had a wealthy family. You're saying she reached her position all on her own ? Grace was trained in a job. She was an agent. You're asking me what job Grace could get now so she could be worthy of respect..well I would ask you what job could Polly get ? all her money comes from a life of crime. She lives on blood money. Do you have respect for her ? What about Lizzie ? is she only worthy of respect now that she is Tommy's secretary but not when she was a prostitute? What job is John's wife trained for ? maybe telling fortunes. Is she not worthy of respect ? Seems to me Grace has more training than many of the other female characters but she gets no respect.. Why is she being held to a different standard than to even the other female characters?
I don't really like or dislike Grace I was just saying that I find her to be a much more complex character than May was and there is the potential for some much better storylines because she isn't a typical good female character. She's good and bad just like Tommy ..
I think you underestimate May, she has the potential to be ruthless, her character hasn't been developed but it's there in what she says and her attitude generally, but, she is also compassionate and wants what is best for Tommy, not herself. Yes she may be rich, however, to have a business as she does and be successful is unusual at that time, especially as a single woman, although as a widow she had slightly more freedom.
Sorry but I genuinely didn't see any of the qualities in May that you have described above. I might have missed something but I can't think of anything that she did on screen to demonstrate them. She just seemed really lonely to me and I felt sorry for her. Everything we saw of her seemed to me to be linked to her infatuation with Tommy and trying to attract his interest.
As for business, it wasn't that uncommon for the wives and daughters of the aristocracy to dabble in business. The truth is that we simply do not know if she was a successful businesswoman. There are lots of rich, dumb aristocrats who have the money and connections to aquire businesses and the staff to run them. I'm not suggesting that this is May, just that we really don't know and anything else is assumption.
Yes we see her interact with Tommy but that's because they are relevant to each other in the context of the program, she didn't have to attract his interest, she's a trainer, his horse needed training so he went to her, she knew of him but she is also genuinely interested in the horse doing well for him. It's also obvious she has a relationship with his family although it's only hinted at when she tells Grace that john had told her about the other woman.
There are no flies on May, dabbling in business is not the same as being a female trainer in a mainly male environment.
As to her infatuation, she found him attractive but was unwilling initially to be the one to make the first move, he pursued her and she was willing to continue despite Grace because yes she loves him but is also confident she is the better woman for him, at least that is how I interpret it.
On a side note, in the new episode, did she really think Aunt Poll fell for little fishing expedition, I think not, imo, she was fishing herself to find out what Tommy had told Grace and to see if he trusted her with business, the answer to which is no, or maybe he just doesn't want the inevitable ear ache!
Let's face it, we're all making assumptions! I can't imagine why the hoo ha about who he would marry unless the original intent was that he marry May and leave Grace and the child, another assumption. Also, there's a 2year gap which no doubt will have parts filled in, however, it is leaving us all with no options but to make assumptions.
Im not a fan of Grace so you don't need to compare the two women for me. I was merely discussing my view of May and not pulling a May v Grace.
I think we might have been watching different shows as May definitely did approach Tommy first. He may have initiated sex but she was definitely doing all the chasing. I don't have a problem with that, for me she started strong and quickly declined. There is nothing strong about pursuing a man who is in love with someone else. I would have loved for her to have a bit more gumption and told him to go to Grace if that was what he wanted.
As for being female trainer in a male environment, of course at the time the actual trainers were mostly male but that's not technically what she was. Correct me if I'm wrong but didn't May part own a business that trains horses, didn't actually see her doing any training? In fact, wasnt it her male trainer who provided a report on how he thought the horse would fair in the Derby? I'm not hating on her but the business does not prove she is smart.
Nothing of what you have said has demonstrated that she was compassionate, ruthless and put Tommy before everything else. She approached Tommy to train his horses because she fancied him. He saw an opportunity and used her as a means to get access to the General and the betting licenses. Please don't think that this makes him the good guy in my eyes as it certainly doesn't.
Well the thread was initially about Graces qualities, and she really has none that I find redeemable, I like May's qualities as I see them, so therefore, for me, it is very much Grace vs May.
think we might have been watching different shows as May definitely did approach Tommy first. He may have initiated sex but she was definitely doing all the chasing. I don't have a problem with that, for me she started strong and quickly declined. There is nothing strong about pursuing a man who is in love with someone else. I would have loved for her to have a bit more gumption and told him to go to Grace if that was what he wanted.
As for being female trainer in a male environment, of course at the time the actual trainers were mostly male but that's not technically what she was. Correct me if I'm wrong but didn't May part own a business that trains horses, didn't actually see her doing any training? In fact, wasnt it her male trainer who provided a report on how he thought the horse would fair in the Derby? I'm not hating on her but the business does not prove she is smart.
I'm not going to pit two women against each other, it's just not my thing. I also think that if either camp have to use the other woman's shortfalls to justify the other's virtues then they really don't have confidence in their favourite.
I'm sorry but there is nothing strong about a woman being prepared to let a man "stay over" after he's basically dumped her because he's in love with someone else. Watch this part of the scene again, he is clearly testing her. He's asking her if she would still let him stay over even after everything he said. If a man said those things to me he would get his marching orders, that's called having self respect. Why should she have to fight for him, doesn't she deserve better?
We can only judge her based on what we saw on screen and the writers didn't give much. Most of what you are saying is based on assumption. I stand by my point that we really don't know if she was successful or not as it wasn't shown on screen.
It's a TV programme and people have their preferences, they are written in a specific way to drive the story and probably be defisive, it's about 2 characters. I think the issue here is actually that in the first series Grace had a job to do and a reason for wanting to do it, but the balance between her being a spy and a woman in love just did not gel for me, I don't know if it was the acting or the writing, but her character isn't developed much further other than to be desperate and needy in the subsequent series the same with May, she has a definite potential but then there is no indication or explantion as of yet in the new series, of what happened to her.
Yes he's testing her, like he did with Lizzie, the difference in this case is what he wants the outcome to be, I personally don't think he wants to go and is conflicted, even if he doesn't love her, I think he has some peace with her and enjoys that, he tells her he hasn't yet damaged her reputation when he breaks it off, at no point does he say he doesn't want her, just that there's someone else and it can't continue between him and May because of it, I will assume it's because he cares enough not to hurt her despite wanting her, and when she tells him it's OK, he's happy to continue in the knowledge that she is doing it with her eyes wide open and he doesn't as far as we're aware contact Grace again after. Like she says to Grace, the fact that he has told her about Grace but not vice versa is possibly of some significance, maybe he thinks it's none of her business, that she doesn't have a right to know or that May herself doesn't mean enough to him, but i don't believe that to be the case.
She does tells him to go, but also says that if he wants to stay that's not an issue either, she is sensible and adult enough to know that if she makes demands on him, it will be detrimental to what she wants in the long run, that's not being weak or needy, it's planning, Grace is married at this point so can't have him completely. He can't play May as easily as he does Grace imo, she wants him, so she'll fight for him, she makes a choice because it's what she wants to do, he explained that the situation between he and Grace had been the case for a long time, but to May they still aren't together so why not take a shot for her own happiness. When he tells her he will find her, he wasn't doing so under duress, he was happy with the status quo till Grace arrived with the baby news so he had made the decision to let her sail, and his response when when she tells him she loves him, hmmm.
Yes, as I said, we're all making assumptions, however, it's interesting that I make the assumption that May, who runs a business, has influence and makes her own decisions, to be strong, intelligent and successful and you are more prepared to think not because it's not in black and white, or colour as the case may be😃
I didn't say she wasn't a successful businesswoman, that would be an assumption on my part and unfair. My point is that we don't know if she is, a toff owning a business does not automatically mean they are smart and successful.
The difference between us is that I don't have a romanticised view of any of the characters on the show.
No, I started by saying the romantic in me hopes that May and Tommy get together, however being a romantic doesn't mean I am unable to form an objective opinion about the characters in the show, like I said, the characters are written the way they are for a reason, we're not all going to agree and like them all, we will interpret things differently based on our view point, that's why we go onto message boards to exchange and discuss our views right!
Just because a female toff owns a business, it does not automatically make her unsuccessful either, but I can extrapolate that if she was rubbish at what she did, she wouldn't have the influence she has and would be treated with derision, purely because she is a woman!
You're making an assumption that I don't like her just because I'm not prepared to accept that she has virtues that we have not seen on screen. The simple truth is that they didn't let us see very much of May so it is very difficult to get a real measure of her character.
For me, she started off very well and I thought that her character showed great promise but I really didn't like how needy they made here in the end, it seemed out of character. Some of Mays biggest supporters on this board have said the same thing.
When I said you had a very romanticised view, I was referring to you presenting a lot of facts that seem to have been played out in your head, rather than on the show. It's very difficult to have a conversation when I can only talk about what was on screen.
So basically because I have a different opinion, mine is romanticised and just in my head? I have said that it's how I have perceived the situations, this is based on what I hear and see with the characters interacting with each other. I did not say anything as factual, you have read it as that, i an expressing my opionion, as far as i am aware I have not made any assumptions that you don't like her.
I agree that they don't let us see much of her, and I have said as much when I say they didn't really develop her character.
Its definitely not in your head because that is how I perceived the things on screen as well.
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I forgot to add that it is not obvious that she has a relationship with his family. It's just as likely that she has met John as a business acquaintance.
shareSo John is going to tell her about another woman in Tommy's past, who betrayed them, when they're mere business acquaintances and he knows they are having a relationship, I don't think so.
shareI didn't suggest he told her everything. Why would she not be able to walk up to John, who she knew through business and ask who the women was. He only had to tell her that she was Tommys ex, he didn't have to go into detail.
But I am suggesting he has told her enough that she makes the connection at the races, that's plenty.
shareI think you're reading way too much into this. It was just an easy way for the writer to get May and Grace into a scene together with minimal fuss. May would have had to have heard an extremely specific physical description of Grace to pick her out in a crowded room especially when she wasn't expecting her to be there. It's a plot hole. There are actually quite a lot of them in this show.
shareYes, something like "that's Tommy's ex", that doesn't suggest that she has a relationship with his family.
shareShe met John through her association with Tommy and the horse. She first met him at their place in Birhimgham, where he said Tommy had told them a lot about her.
Just because they're both involved in horse racing doesn't mean they ever would have met otherwise. Totally different stratospheres of horse racing.
Re: May's potential for being ruthless, I have to disagree. She couldn't even control her own servants, which in terms of showing her authority is the very least she could do.
shareDo you mean her trainer or the maids? Because how is she meant to know where all her maids are at any one time in that huge house, that's the butler and housekeepers remit, and it was said as an observation that because there was a man at the house they would listen, not as a fact! With Mickey(I think that was his name), that wasn't about her not being able to control him, it was about him having his knowledge questioned, he reacted to that!
I think she has the potential to be ruthless because of her words, she doesn't hold back and is more direct than Grace.
The maids listen at her bedroom door when there's a man in the house, which is clearly a sacking offence that no employer at that time would have stood for but she lets them get away with it.
shareThey would not actually listen at her door because yes they would be sacked and not only that, they were incredibly busy from the beginning of the day to the end, what she was saying is that with there being a man in the house, staying overnight, they might as well be listening at her door because the gossip would amount to the same thing!
shareNo she quite clearly states that they listen at doors, and it was that that led to the gossip about May 'fücking a racketeer' that got leaked to her people and made her a laughing stock. She let it happen.
shareTommy tells her to let them listen also, however, she may say the words 'the maids listen at doors' but I maintain what i said in my previous post, she is alluding to the gossip there'll be because there is a man staying in her house and she is a widow, she openly kisses him in the yard, she is not held back by convention. The gossip may have been leaked by her staff, most servants talked and the trick was to try and get as many trustworthy ones as possible, so, does she sack them all? And anyway, how is that an indication of how strong an individual she is? Her issue doesn't appear to be that people know, it's that they think he's socially beneath and she doesn't like that, that takes courage for her to stand up to her peers.
sharelol its amazing to me how different the subjective views of this show and its characters are. Like you I also did not take this as literal meaning. The maids, and it seems obvious to me, wouldnt actually be outside the door with their ear to it..lol. I took it as when there is a man in the house, with the gossip that ensues, its almost as IF they were outside the door listening.
shareplus, she's rich because of inheritance, by birth and husband. it's not like she worked for it.
shareMreeney, Anyone unless someone had disabilities, they would understand your post. It's very, very simple. You clearly did not understand my post. I have been very clear on each post that they deserve each other. Obviously, you did not understand my last sentence which read "TS' character is no better than Grace IMO. So, they are well suited." I don't know how much clearer one can make it. Also, I've said it in my previous posts. My feminist sensibilities have not taken offence to the truth as I stated. As a viewer of a progrommme, "likable" is quite the fluid term. IMO Grace is quite possibly a sociopath. So in this case, (and I'm sticking to her since, in case you forgot, that is the subject) in order to watch a series with any kind of relish, I have to like the lead just a little bit.
As to Grace's character being more complex, please pull the other, she's everything I've said in my last point with the addition of not being very bright. Sly but not smart IMO.
Mreeney, I do, in fact, know that the series is set in the 1920. I don't know about you but I've watched this series from the start. If this is your way of being condescending, try harder, it's laughable.
Are you a student of history? Many, many women were supporting themselves without a man. My grandmother was a solicitor. My grandmother didn't come from money but she was smart. Don't pull out that tired old trump. This was after WWI and before the depression, you understand that right? Many women were becoming nurses, teachers, secretaries, shop girls, factory girls and the like. The fact that May came from money and didn't have to work makes me respect her all the more. May has decency, kindness and intelligence - traits that Grace clearly lacks. She could have sat at home like Grace, went after wealthy men and became "arm candy" but she chose to do it on her on own and was very well respected in her field.
Grace was trained in a job Ha to the bloody Ha. She certainly made a hash of that now didn't she. She'll go down in the history of showbiz as the worst possible spy ever. Betrayer yes, spy no. All Grace can do is depend on men for money, power and the like. She has no marketable qualities at all. Total arm candy and, by the looks of things that's not going to last long. She how she goes with the Russian princess.
Polly ran the bookie operation, if you recall or maybe you haven't watched the entire series. As smart and tough as she is, she could do anything she wanted from bar owner to accountant to Head Ward Nurse. As to your comment re blood money, (and plenty of that to be sure-think of all she got killed when she was the worst spy in history) and artifice is what Grace certainly is sucking off and we are not sure just how much blood money at this stage either. I loved Lizzy when she was a prostitute just as much as when she became a secretary. She was poor and did the very best she could. Grace, however, came from not money but clearly a middle to maybe upper middle class family (cavalry officers). She easily could have went on to Uni or teacher's college and done whatever she wanted but since IMO she has severe MH issues what she is doing right now is what she wants. No, Grace does not have my respect only my very high disregard. The series should lose her and quick. As I said before, the women in my FB group that were her supporters (we come from all over the world and varied backgrounds), after seeing her in this series, cannot stand her.
I do not find Grace complex. I find her not very bright, sad, untrustworthy and not a good person. I don't need to like her but I need to at least respect her. I really want to find out what happened to her nice, kind deceased husband. It was not suicide IMO.
Grace had some skills and experience and presumably education as well. She managed to hold a job in Birmingham. Two actually: one as a spy and the other working at the Garrison. There's no reason she couldn't have worked in New York too. She spoke the language, and there were loads of Irish people there doing quite well. The economy was good and there were jobs available to women. Pink collar jobs, to be sure, but jobs nonetheless..
I don't deny marriage made life a lot easier for a woman, but it's not like she had no options. She had options.
the whole show is based in crime and gangster lifestyle, and you are asking what is Polly's job? same as the rest of Shelby's family, you call yourself feminist, double standard!
tommy does not love may! where's the dignity in them being together. would YOU be with a guy that you KNOW does not love you?
She marries someone she doesn't love, takes complete and total advantage of him
Who cares? "Love" between one and two possible sociopaths??? Do you understand that at all? That's quite the amazing statement you just made. He's onto the Russian princess two eps down? Hello? May is the only sane one in that little trio. I hope she comes back. Cause there is few that are playing with a full deck as it stands right now (all of my faves are). TS and Grace are right at top of heap on the mad and very dangerous scale IMO.
shareWow, he may not love her but he certainly doesn't hate her, and he is being open with her, something he doesn't do with many people, never mind a woman, even Grace, therefore why should she not be open about her feelings? She does care that there is someone else, she's just not prepared for it to spoil her happiness when he obviously has some regard for her. Everyone is saying she is weak because she doesn't kick him to the curb for admitting there is someone else, but he doesn't say he is leaving her to be with that person, he just wants to end it before her reputation is damaged and she gets hurt! She is sane, just a decent person.
sharenever said he hated may. but, her entire behavior in that scene alludes to her weakness and desperation to hang onto a guy that doesn't love her. to me, tommy told her about grace because he does have respect for her, but he was also saying that his feelings are elsewhere so he can't commit. may's reaction to hang onto him at all costs exhibited no self-respect, not strength.
a balanced woman would just let a guy go if he told her he was still is holding onto feelings for someone else. but, not may. she's determined to 'win' him. this is not behavior to admire. give the guy some time and he'll come back if he wants. but, again, not may, she keeps pushing it.
although i'm glad that he married grace, i know she has her own issues. i wasn't particularly fond her waif-like persona in S2. but, from hers and tommy's first scene, i could see that this was 'the' relationship for them. there's a bond and mirroring of each other that has not been presented between their characters to this point in the show. annabelle in an interview also noted that she always saw them married from the beginning. i truly think that steven knight's intention was always to have tommy and grace together. being that it's a drama, the portrayal of the complexities of their relationship is necessary.
Let me get this straight. May is desperate??? Puhleeze. Tommy was not an unwilling partner in that relationship at all. When Grace sprung the baby card (which there is absolutely no evidence that the baby is not her poor, dead, husband's - in fact it much more likely is) that was what closed the deal. Grace would go to any lengths to get what she wants. I believe the word narcissist is the what I'm looking for.
I'm kind of amazed here. It's O.K. for a possible sociopath and proven liar and betrayer, someone who doesn't care who she hurts and who she takes down with her, this is a character think is fine because they are in "love"? Grace, who may or may not have something to do with her husband's "suicide" is O.K. All of her actions are acceptable to you. So, this your idea of a balanced woman.
If SK wants to keep his viewers, anyone would know that this relationship will implode. Simple logic.
May, who simply stood up for herself and was true to her feelings is unbalanced? I think we are of two very different thought processes here.
Grace is not a sociopath. As I've said before on this board, I have experience with people like that and believe me, I can tell the difference. Sociopaths feel NOTHING. Literally nothing. You may not like Grace but that is not how she has been portrayed, far from it in fact. The script so far hints that Tommy was the one who killed Grace's husband so pinning that on Grace is a little premature. Or it could indeed be suicide, who knows? There is literally nothing to suggest that the baby is not Tommy's other than that fact that you don't want it to be. There is nothing in the script to support that theory, not even any sly digs from Polly. There were no DNA tests back then so if the baby wasn't Tommy's then how would that even come to light? It wouldn't and it couldn't. It was a plot hole. And I have to admit I'm a little puzzled why you're hoping for May to return if you believe her ex-lover and his new wife to be sociopaths? Surely she's better off out of that situation and as far away as possible.
shareLucy you may not believe she is a possible sociopath but I do. Also a complete narcissist. We are all entitled to our opinion and that is mine. I respect yours but our opinions are just different. Like I said, she is "possibly" involved. At a minimum I think, as it was very much hinted at TS' involvement in her husband's "suicide", I think she knew something. As I said, she is not smart but sly. I didn't pin it on her but I wouldn't be in the least bit surprised if she had some involvement in it.
As to the baby, Lucy, I'm a mum of two and maybe you are as well. Here's what I do know: unless Tommy has some super sperm one sleep doesn't usually get it. It does happen but rarely. I found the whole pregnancy testing in quack street from last series laughable. Why leave America where the best treatment was at that time. A couple who are trying for a baby are frequently having sex period. That's what you do when you want a baby.
Grace showed absolutely no sadness of any kind about her dead husband. He was just a thing for her to use until she got what she wanted.
Oh I absolutely think May is far too good for something like that. What I would like to see is her with someone about 10x more powerful than TS and look at him like a cockroach on the floor that should be trod on. Bringing May back would really add some great drama/conflict IMO. Since he's pouncing on the Russian princess we know how true he is to his great love Grace.
unless Tommy has some super sperm one sleep doesn't usually get it.
read my premise in all my posts about may's willingness to pursue a guy who's heart is elsewhere. yes, that is a type of imbalance. she has her issues as well.
yes, we have different perspectives for sure.
Totally and unequivocally agree! We have completely different perceptions - not even a question.
shareI do understand you're view regarding how she behaves but it's perception, people see strengths and weaknesses where others would not and vice versa. I am pretty sure May knows he is not the type to commit, she wants him and is willing to take him as he is and with what he will offer her, he isn't throwing her a bone out of pity, but she knows she has plenty to offer him
I would hazard a guess there are many men & women who are in relationships with people who aren't who they would chose to be with, and some might even know that they aren't loved but are willing to stay because it suits them to for their own reasons. Grace was married to a man she didn't love but who apparently loved her, she was willing to accept that, is that a strength or weakness, some would say a weakness some a strength.
I don't think May is unbalanced, IMO, Grace in the last episode when I she tells Tommy she is pregnant seems pretty unbalanced, understandable some would say given the circumstances, but i still find something off about her. The complexities of their relationship are necessary, however, the 2 missing years make it difficult to understand how they got to where they are.
Well, to be fair, of course AW saw them as married from the beginning. It benefits her for them to be, because it keeps her on a critically acclaimed show. I can't imagine she was happy Grace was killed off.
share"is a liar, cheat, betrayer and quite possibly a sociopath. She is dependent on men for everything. She marries someone she doesn't love, takes complete and total advantage of him and then we come to the part where we are really not sure how he dies"
Isn't this show set int he real early 1900's hundreds? So of course she is largely dependent on men for everything! Women had little rights through history. Hell women didn't have the right to even vote until the 1920's and still int he 1950's a women could be sick int he hospital and a doctor would wait to speak to your husband before he spoke to you, and as a society were still fighting over this idea that a womans reproductive rights are not her own she she can't get an abortion because the chur- ahem government law says she can't in alot of places, including if she's raped or having the child might kill her. Oh but think of the children the pro-lifer scream!
Or course Grace married for security and station, if she had any money left to her by her parents it wouldn't surprise me if a good portion of it was reserved as a dowry/marriage incentive to be received once her money becomes her husbands money, which she would then have no direct access to herself, but could then charge her expenses billed forward to her husband (which he could then criticiser), but maybe i'm getting my era's just a tiny be wrong on this last one.
"I have no respect for her as a feminist. If she had to make it on her own, without a man supporting her, God knows what that character would be doing. Well, I can think of a few things."
We have the luxury today of being feminists (or just modern women) because we can have money of our own, inherit property, use contraception etc. Given that she was working as a spy in a very constricting time period for women is something to be commended. She could have just as easily married someone rich and powerful as she could snag, and stayed at home having children as was expected of her, going from the care of father to husband.
"Tell me, what job could she get? What business could she run."
Little? Because women were still very much expected in those days to favor wife/mother to self-sufficiency, which could come crumbling down and have you turning tricks quickly enough, even today.
"May would never play happy housewife. She's way too smart and connected for that. She already has her own successful business."
IIRC May got wealth and connections and her estate either through inheritance or marriage to a now dead husband. You bet your ass she would have played some version of happy housewife to her husband, even if it wasn't some barefoot and perpetual pregnant version. She's not some strong she wolf, she a woman that's learnt to play the game in the constrictions of the life she lives, now given free reign because her husbands dead an she is a wealthy woman. She would most definitely do what was required of her by Tommy. I'm only on episode 3 of series 3, but it wouldn't surprise me it he married her because back in those days a child needed a mother (the homemakers) was the rhetoric, and he would slap her around if she got to bold, Tommy's no saint.
shareI never liked Grace. She flip flops. [spoilers ahead]. When we first sees her she is a die hard criminal gang buster, willing to go all out to inflitrate the crime world. Then she flops when she really falls in love with Tommy. Then she goes get married to another guy .... then she realises she does not love the guy. While married, she sleeps with Tommy and gets herself pregnant.... She really cannot control herself, can she? That's why I think she is a liability. And.... I don't really fancy Annabelle Wallis; I think she'd make good bad ass characters like Jane Lynch's Sue Sylvester in Glee. When she goes weak and sobbing in Peaky Blinders, you kind of hate looking at her... because she comes across as someone who manipulates. Oh well, I think I am thinking way too much on this.
shareAgain, there is nothing about Grace that I like. All of the above megamendong and then some. I loved May. Not only is she a truly talented actress but she added so much dimension to the series. I hope she comes back. I have to say, though, she's way too good for Tommy.
No, I really don't believe there's any sort of Charlie Whizzbang thing going on. She's gone period. I know she is listed in E5. My take is that while he's half dead in the hospital, there is some sort of dream sequence.
I like Grace a lot. I see so much hate for her online that it really baffles me. I've seen so many people describing her as "whiny" or "needy." One person on Twitter said "bitchy, petty, decorative, demanding and jealous. The very worst that human nature has to offer, personified in Grace." Or that she can do nothing to help Tommy and is only "a distraction." I don't understand this line of thinking at all.
From the start of S1, Tommy has seen her as useful to his "cause," which has always been moving up in the world and going legit. He saw right away that she would be useful to him. And she was. She was smart, she had class, and proved she could stand her ground with him. Yes, she betrayed him. And I know there are viewers who say they can never forgive her for this. Maybe people should try some empathy and put themselves in her shoes, try to see things from her perspective.
Her father, clearly a military officer, was murdered by the IRA. And she wanted to avenge this, to find some way to fight back. But she had no idea of the people she was going to meet by being sent to Birmingham, or how her life was going to change. It was never her intention to hurt someone she loved, and who loved her. Tommy understood her reasons, accepted and forgave Grace a long time ago.
People also seem to hate her because she married some man in America and then cheated on him. Grace had wanted to start a new life there with Tommy. But that wasn't going to happen. So she's in a strange country, presumably without any family or friends. What does a woman do? She gets married. It was the 1920's. That's what the majority of women did, whether they really wanted to or not. A husband meant protection. So she found a nice man who could give her a safe home. And then they were trying for a baby, but the way Grace said it she didn't seem at all happy about it. It might've been her husband's idea. Or perhaps she thought a baby might give her a little happiness. She was clearly *beep* miserable in New York.
And in her reunion with Tommy, she still stood her ground with him, unafraid to challenge him, and even strike him. Who the hell has the balls to hit Tommy *beep* Shelby in the face? Grace does. And he took it from her, too. Because they're equals, they're the same. Nothing had really changed that much except their circumstances, their "uniforms." And as far as her morals go, people don't seem to call Tommy on the carpet too often for his morals. But I don't want to go into a rant about how the behavior of male characters is judged versus female characters.
And now in S3 Grace is "whiny," "needy," and "demanding." Have the people saying these things ever been in a long-term, committed relationship before? Or been married? What exactly is Grace whining about? What does she need that's so terrible? What is she demanding that is so unreasonable? She wants herself, Tommy, and their son kept safe. She wants her husband to be open and honest with her, to not keep things a secret from her. Well, *beep* me gently with a chainsaw. HOW DARE SHE.
And apparently she's "petty" and "decorative." Give me a break. Grace fell in love with Tommy when his address was 6 Watery Lane, Small Heath. She didn't ask for a mansion. She didn't ask for a huge sapphire. She'd live with Tommy anywhere, whether it was a one room flat in Birmingham or a country estate so big Arthur needs a damn map to find his way around.
Yes, her S2 story line wasn't the greatest and her role in S2 could've been better. But whether she's dressed as a barmaid or wearing an expensive gown to a charity dinner, she's still Grace. The same Grace who joined the Ulster Volunteer Force when her father got murdered. The same Grace who killed two IRA members. The same Grace who pointed a gun at Polly's face. The same Grace who shot Campbell. Just because she's wearing nicer clothes and lives in a mansion (which was Tommy's doing, not hers), doesn't mean she's become some simpering, weak woman whose only aspiration is to sit around at home and plan parties.
Like Chris Carter, I apologize for nothing.
I much preferred May. But I suppose Grace's history before Birmingham can bring more to the series. Still, I don't like something about her which I can't put my finger on.
shareI think she's fantastic. There was nothing like that first season. What a slow burn. I think there is a real emptiness now. Yes, I liked Grace a lot. She comes to town and works at a bar with a mission. She's not scared and she's smart. She figures everything out about the location of the guns and she had a real battle with loving a gangster and being on the other side. She's fearless - having to spend time with Kimber was horrible as well as IRA guy. But, with her - there was love and a deep love which proved to be fatal. I loved her singing. And you could see why Tommy fell so deeply in love. What perfect casting to a great female character.
sharethat's sweet. it's the s1 grace that shows how her and tommy were a great fit. like tommy said; 'forever in our hearts'
it's nice to read something that isn't about hate towards her. there are many that have a true rabid hate towards her character. i don't like may, but i haven't wished her dead like grace haters.
Grace is dull as dishwater, such a disappointing choice. More of the same, Grace and the rest of thefamily trying to buy respectability. May loved and accepted Tommy for exactly who he is and would have brought real social power to the enterprise. That would have been a brilliant season.
sharedisagree. s1 grace was great, but then she was written naively. why would anyone want tommy to be with may because it's perceived good business? she didn't accept him, she liked the idea of him. she certainly didn't know him. she was a lonely widow and needed to 'feel alive'. that's not love. that's desperation. but, you may get your wish next season. but, because grace was written a tommy's true love, any future love will not be convincing. may would be a convenient filler. at the end tommy said that they'll never be accepted by the upper classes no matter how legit they are. so, this narrative wouldn't fit with a pairing with may. grace was more on his level socially.
shareNothing about Grace is dull. She is after all a femme fatale. If you like May better, that’s one thing. Both women are fantastic. The writer introduced Grace in S1 as a fairy tale princess who is a spy and dangerous to both Tommy and Campbell. And, she is a songbird. And in S3, she is ephemeral. The writer named her Grace for a reason. The actress who portrayed her, Annabelle Wallis, did a fantastic job.
Business always comes first with Tommy but as far as women, no one will ever come close to Grace for him. May can never be in Tommy’s life, unless Grace is out of the picture. The last scene in S2, “There’s a woman and she loves me...” – that was meant for only person and that is Grace. The fact that the writer chose not to mention May in S3 speaks volumes, because her story was over – at least for this part of Tommy’s life. Who knows, maybe we will see her later. May is magnificent in a different way and in no way is diminished. But, Tommy fell in love with Grace – that’s the story.
nice sentiments. the light will always burn brightest for grace. if may does return, she'll be second fiddle. you can't compete with a ghost.
i do feel, though, that grace was written weaker after s1.
i do feel, though, that grace was written weaker after s1.
i forgot about how the directing can affect character development. i knew there were different ones in each season, but didn't contemplate that.
yes, s1 was more fairy tale. the music box music for tommy and grace scenes added to the charm for me.
of course there will be new 'love interests', but it will be difficult to watch after tommy and grace. and difficult to take seriously.
Their story was good in S1. I agree. But after that, it wasn't. And AW was never a strong enough actress to keep me on her side when her character changed so much.
shareI didn't like her that much in S3 either. I mean, I guess she was better than S2 but I wouldn't describe her as enchanting. And it annoyed me in the second episode when he came in and she was banging on about the place for the kids to play and the guest list for the charity ball and such. There's nothing wrong with that stuff, but she was just SUCH a conventional rich housewife, oblivious to the very real world in which Tommy lives. In which she KNEW he lived.
On this show, it seems like a boring distraction.
A lot of it has to do with AW, frankly. She's just kind of bland. I think for the viewers to get why Tommy is so besotted with Grace, I have to be besotted with her, and I just never was.
Annlevtex, love all your responses😀
shareGrace is not bland; she is blonde and AW is fantastic and so is CR. I remember your posts last year and you were an avid follower of May. There was a thread May vs. Grace and it went on and on and it is now no longer there – probably hit some limit in IMDB and was deleted. But you wanted Tommy to be with May. And those that liked Grace said – well, he’s not in love with her, and that May was a bit– I’m so lonely in this big house, I will do whatever you want, Tommy. Grace has always been a kind of fairy princess femme fatale, and those that liked May didn’t like Grace.
(spoilers) Fast forward to S3 and, of course, the inevitable, as it should be – Tommy marries his greatest love and they are having a happy time. They are rich, have a baby boy, and are married. Grace is laughing again and fun. The fairytale ends. But there is no mention of May anywhere. Her story ended in S2. Perhaps, in future seasons, she might reappear but poof she was gone. Anyone know if Charlotte Riley will be doing future May character episodes?
I think the writer wants Tommy to have many loves and women – all kinds. For that to happen, Grace – the great love – had to end and likewise the small, sweet, short-lived affair with May.
Which leaves the door open for other women and here comes Tatiana, who blew both May and to some extent Grace out of the water. I actually saw a lot of chemistry between Tommy and Tatiana. – not love but an understanding and something really inflammable. I didn’t see this with May. The intrigue and insight and danger Tatiana served up to Tommy really held his interest. She was a duchess and gypsy-like who came from the dangerous Caucasus in dangerous times. Grace and Tatiana were kind of mirror images – one blonde and blue-eyed and the other dark and diabolical. But they even looked alike, carried guns, were agents - but that chapter ends as well. And, in S4 and S5, there will be more women for Tommy.
pretty much feel the same way. except, don't really agree about tatiana. there's absolutely no way tommy would go for that if he was in a healthy state of mind. so, she was a passing (sinking) ship there to fulfill a business mission and ease some pain in a typical man-way; sex.
if you or anyone is familiar with tarot, i see tommy's women this way:
queen of cups with a bit of queen of wands - grace; sweet, loving, dreamy, and fiesty and ambitious.
queen of pentacles - may; practical, boring, dull
queen of swords - tatiana; sharp, bitchy, backstabbing
read into it what you will :)
Perfection. Couldn't have put it better.
There will be more women.
but, nobody, i mean NObody will compare to grace. that light will shine bright until the entire series ends. as it should.
shareDefinitely. Nobody. Just a really great love story from beginning to end. Grace in S1 was for me one of the best female characters. For that time period and where she was, in Birmingham, so dangerous and she found her way. She was so much smarter than most. The way Tommy fell in love with her was slow and deep. That one scene when he had to shoot his horse and went to the Garrison to see Grace and she sang Black Velvet Band and his head fell. Just really amazing. And then the very last episode when Grace is approached by Campbell at the train station and Tommy is writing her a letter - I learnt long ago to hate my enemies. But I’ve never loved one before....Polly tells me you fell in love for real, and Polly is never wrong about matters of the heart, the shot rings out, there's Jack Black's Love Is Blindness.
sharevery much agree. S1 and S1 grace was the best for me. quality writing and pace where you could appreciate the characters. and, not too many characters either. i think this season has lost that charm all around. but, i thought grace in S2 lost her edge and became too soft. i was hoping to see her grit come back. i think maybe just a kidnapping would have been enough to put tommy into a spiral. then, grace returns with 'i've had enough of this *beep* attitude. and partners with tommy to get things done.
i guess i'll have to settle for continuous reruns of S1.
I have Netflix and I have watched S1 over and over. Everything was perfect in S1 - the music, great characters: Billy Kimber and Campbell, the way Grace was directed and filmed.
S2 was very good - a couple of songs weren't right, but all in all, very good. I waited for ep. 5 where he sees Grace again and the song "Catherine" was a very good choice. Tommy meeting May was appropriate as the "woman after Grace." Tommy and Grace seemed awkward in the last episode and I thought it should have been directed and written differently to avoid that, but it wasn't and then the ending was fantastic - two-fold - really on the edge and then that line by Tommy, "...so close... and there's a woman , whom I love, and I got so close."
S3 was the weakest for me. At times, the music didn't work. Paul Anderson exceled. I don't think Paddy Considine was the best bad guy compared to S1 and S2. Tatiana was a very interesting character out of all of them for this season...and the ending was something you have to ponder. But I waited a year for this season and then it's over, and it just wasn't as great as S1 but I don't think it could ever be. I don't know if I want to keep re-watching these S3 episodes. For future seasons, we will just see Tommy getting himself into a lot of mischief and then running around frantically trying not to lose and then there's the whatever ending and they just move on and up. We do get to see great characters, plot twists, fantastic dialogue, etc. I just think Otto - the first director - conceptualized the series - he's the one that chose modern music that worked really well when he did it, and the hairstyles and he really developed the leading up of Grace character and her interacting with Tommy.
i thought the music choices and editing were much better in S1-2. S3 doesn't flow. i love radiohead, but the music overall didn't have the punch at the right moments like other seasons.
i think campbell had more of an impact as villian that hughes. i really liked kimber.
i also like the directing of S1 the best. the director really knew how to draw out the emotions and focus on the details of a look, word, voice. it unfolded nice and slow. i also heard that someone other than knight wrote the last few eps of S1, which i liked the most.
Yes.
Campbell was exceptional as he fell for Grace too and it made him into this horrible man. I loved Kimber. He is quotable - “Right, he’s the oldest, you’re the thickest. I’m told the boss is called Tommy and I’m guessing that’s you cos’ you’re looking me up and down like I’m a *beep* tart.”
The first season had two directors - Otto for the first three and Harper for the second half. It was seamless though. SK had another writer, different ones, on S1 ep. 4 and ep. 5. It was just masterful. Whoever chose the music did a wonderful job, even selecting songs for Grace.
S1.5 - that is all :)
they need to bring back those directions and add more pj harvey.
May wasn't boring or dull IMO. She was into horses, as was Tommy, and they had a nice repartee for a while there. And she was ambitious too, working at her business and trying to help Tommy get ahead even though she needed neither the money nor the power. She was a practical choice, sure, but then so was Grace in a way. She settled right into the rich housewife thing, with her charity ball and her plans for the house. And she seemed willing to let Tommy handle the security of the family after he shared some info with her. "Keep us safe" she said, and left it at that.
Tatiana was a hard-edged woman but she was a challenge to Tommy in a way that he seemed to like, at least for a while. I didn't find her backstabbing any more than Grace was. They were both spies. That's what spies do, isn't it?
I honestly don't idealize May the same way that some seem to idealize Grace. I really liked her, found her poised and witty but also warm and vulnerable. I thought she had a good heart and a good head on her shoulders. But she acted too fragile with Tommy at the end. She was interesting, but not fascinating. She was very attractive but not ethereally beautiful. She was a good woman and character, not some sort of goddess.
I don't like it when shows idealize characters. And what they did with Grace in the end turned her into a sort of ideal that she never was.
"Love? With Thomas Shelby?"
May didn't love Tommy, and he didn't love her. She was using him just as he was using her.
Like Chris Carter, I apologize for nothing.
perfect, short summarization.
i think this proves the point that may didn't know tommy. or, because she didn't feel his love for her, she assumed that he couldn't love at all. and, that was proven wrong as he didn't love may, but did love grace.
I think he loved he got a girl like Grace. Their relationship was off in Season 3. Totally weak pairing.
shareMay never said Tommy couldn't love.
May told Grace that she would make sure Tommy got the licenses he needed. Grace said "There's business and then there's love." May replied "Is there? With Thomas Shelby?"
The thing is, Tommy was never satisfied with being the happy little goldfish family swimming in the trough. He wanted to break the glass class ceiling. He didn't have to try to pull off that huge robbery, but he did it anyway. He already had a ton of money, so why? He did it while they were trying to get his kid back from a freaking kidnapper.
Of course Tommy didn't love May the way he loved Grace. He would have been marrying her in part for her connections. But it's true that he was never able to put business and ambition aside entirely for the sake of the love of his family, including Grace. He was pursuing a dangerous heist he did not need to pull off, even though it endangered them.
Tommy wanted Grace, but he also wanted money and power. Tommy wants everything. And in part because he did, he ended up losing the most important thing.
May told Grace that she would make sure Tommy got the licenses he needed. Grace said "There's business and then there's love." May replied "Is there? With Thomas Shelby?"
And he already had a ton of money and yet he pursued a very dangerous heist at a time when his family was already in danger because of his business dealings. In Episode 1 he was tormented by it, yet he didn't back away from the Great Jewel Theft.
And as you said, he didn't really have to choose between love and business. He didn't need May anyway, so he could have both. What if that were NOT the case? What if he really did need her? Given how important yet more money seemed to be to him, I think it's open to interpretation. We don't know what he would have done.
Tommy thought he could have it all, did have it for a while, but in the end it came back to bite him.
he had a choice and he chose love with someone he felt compatible with to marry. i don't think tommy shelby chooses marriage lightly, so that says a lot.
He chose the woman with whom he was in love. I am aware of that, and it doesn't surprise me.
I can still see the benefits of marrying the other woman, though. I don't see her as second rate dog food.
sure, for convenience. i don't think she's second rate. i just don't think she's the one tommy wanted or should have been with.
shareI think Grace being pregnant with Tommy's child was an important factor.
However, in the two year time lapse, we don't know what transpired between Tommy and May either. He could have stayed with May for a while, got what she could provide him (like introductions into the big time "respectable" society,... -- then something happened between Grace and her husband.
yes, but i think many may supporters are missing the fact that grace was written to be tommy's 'the one.' he thought she was going back to NY and didn't think she loved him any longer. he saw her declaration of love as an opportunity to go for it. the pregnancy may have been a factor, but i think that when his life flashed before him in the field, he realized what the really important things in life are -- family, and being with someone because you love them.
the woman he loves he was talking about in the field is grace. his announcement that he's getting married is to grace. i doubt that tommy went back to may after, other than to break it off.
he was already on his way with business and making connections. i think may helping him for business on the track was just one of the many plot holes in this entire series.
i really think may was written only with the intention to add drama in tommy's love life for we viewers, with no plan for it to go anywhere. at least when S2 was written. who knows now.
but i think that when his life flashed before him in the field, he realized what the really important things in life are -- family, and being with someone because you love them.
true. but, sometimes those unexpected occurrences just put you on the path you're supposed to be on.
share" May loved and accepted Tommy for exactly who he is and would have brought real social power to the enterprise."
I think it's funny that people seems to think poor of Grace and dismiss any notion that Grace and Tommy loved each other, in favor of May, and bolster her up saying she 'loves' Tommy and she's so much better. May is afforded the means to have a bold personality due to her station in life earned by having a dead husband. I'll give if people just like May's personality and thus character better then Grace. Grace was demure but smart and brave, May is bold and strong i might say, she has a different personality to Grace. But she does not love Tommy, she loves Tommy The Gangster, she likes the idea of being a head gangsters wife, having a powerful man in her bed, that seems like he would do his best to be an agreeable husband despite being a gangster, while not having really seen what any of that life is about. Grace actually lived that life (or close to it) and still fell in love with Tommy.